Team Balance: And What Bothers Me
ElvenThief
aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8754Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8754Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">...and it goes either way.</div> Just about every time I jump in a random public server, I find the teams horrendously stacked. Like 7 on 2 for example. The reason being, that it was once 7 on 7 and the team that was losing started dropping members like flies.
What bothers me is that once a team starts dropping players, you get every single person remaing shouting "Teams!!!!" every 5 minutes.
I honestly believe there is no autoswitch after joining a team for the simple reason that a player who has played both sides knows too much. They know weaknesses and exploits of each team and it gets a little annoying when you have someone defect on you.
I got into an argument with a dude about this once mid-game. I joined the alien team, which was losing bad, and some dude popped in after me, looked at the teams and started *****ing at marines to switch. I told him that is unfair to the marines who worked hard at getting their side of the game done, forcing them to lose because the alien players didn't have the constitution or even skill to and play it out. It went downhill and I think he left, but the aliens still managed to return and win the game.
To sum it up, don't get angry if teams are imbalanced. Odds are the empty team was losing bad and it's players realised that their team wasn't getting the job done so they vamped out. We all know how bad marine stacking was before 1.01, but any stacking I see now is due to people who don't have the courage to finish it off. The biggest reason that I've ever left a team was because of n00b commaders, renegade marines, or gorges who drove me nuts by building 1 sensory chamber and nothing else. So if you ever complain about teams, check to see you've never done any of that.
My 2 cents
What bothers me is that once a team starts dropping players, you get every single person remaing shouting "Teams!!!!" every 5 minutes.
I honestly believe there is no autoswitch after joining a team for the simple reason that a player who has played both sides knows too much. They know weaknesses and exploits of each team and it gets a little annoying when you have someone defect on you.
I got into an argument with a dude about this once mid-game. I joined the alien team, which was losing bad, and some dude popped in after me, looked at the teams and started *****ing at marines to switch. I told him that is unfair to the marines who worked hard at getting their side of the game done, forcing them to lose because the alien players didn't have the constitution or even skill to and play it out. It went downhill and I think he left, but the aliens still managed to return and win the game.
To sum it up, don't get angry if teams are imbalanced. Odds are the empty team was losing bad and it's players realised that their team wasn't getting the job done so they vamped out. We all know how bad marine stacking was before 1.01, but any stacking I see now is due to people who don't have the courage to finish it off. The biggest reason that I've ever left a team was because of n00b commaders, renegade marines, or gorges who drove me nuts by building 1 sensory chamber and nothing else. So if you ever complain about teams, check to see you've never done any of that.
My 2 cents
Comments
Agreed. It is much better to have players switch teams and bring whatever knowledge they have with them, than to just sentence the entire team with fewer players to a suffering agonizing game. Lopsided games can still take a LONG TIME. It just becomes very frustrating to the team with fewer players.
Recently I have had to consistently play aliens just because of the losers stacking marines. It is very annoying. And most of the time that I get a chance to play marines, I eventually have to switch to aliens anyway because I am the "nice guy" and switch when everybody is complaining because I *know* nobody else on my team is going to do a d*mn thing.
I hate always having to be the "nice guy" and getting my game ruined <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
This situation was solved succinctly on a server a played recently because the admin outright kicked people who made the teams uneven (past 1). Of course, the second he left, it became like 7 marines v 2 aliens. Admins make all the difference.
And anyway, I usually end up being random teamed on to the Kharaa side, and they seem to always have less people right up until we get the third hive built. Then it miraculously goes from 8-6 marine favor to 9-5 alien favor. Coincidence obviously.
I have seen this several times, and people just get bored waiting for you idgits (and poor sports) to get it over with, so they leave to another server.
If the marines pull ahead through 30 minutes of hard work by the commander and his squad of 5 marines, it isn't fair at all for the aliens to whine because all of a sudden their gimpy teammates decide to quit the game. Every jackhole alien I see whine because my leadership + troops encourages his team to quit makes me laugh. Dumb newbs.
What the game needs is a "Concede Game" vote, so players can choose to vote the game over and get onto a rematch. My biggest complaint so far is the inordinate amount of time spent to finish off a crippled enemy. It can take FOREVER to finish a marine base off on some maps when the entire team is spamming grenades.
Posted then thought of this
I know there will be server side scripts to control this, but maybee one thats goes by time spent on a team.
Server checks team numbers every 5 or 10 minutes if teams uneven person with lowest time on server on team with more people gets bumped to ready room (auto F4) where you can only join the teams evenly. (which there is already a server mod for this latter part.)
I don't care if my team doesn't have the "constitution" to stick out a game (ever had to leave to go somewhere? hmm?), you should switch teams and not complain. It's no god damn fun at all when the teams are stacked Ten to Five. Besides, I doubt that your highly advanced strategical mind will provide so much information to the other team that they will automatically win.
The only time I see people having a problem with finishing off a game would be on aliens. Marines just march through a base with HMG's, nade spam, or set up siege turrets. No problem. But ripping up the turret forest main base of the marines can take a bit, so when the Marines are always whining at us to finish them, I tell 'em to recycle their T-Fac.
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So maybe if a medium to large team disparity is detected, the larger team automatically gets the victory? I'm reluctant to put in a concede game option for complexity and elegance reasons, but this method is essentially an automatic concession.
Sure, they will cry. What bugs me is the typical claim that they are losing because of the numerical unbalance, not beause of skill. Yea, which came first? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Flayra, the only resonable approach to this issue (and it is an issue that arises in EVERY single game I play), is to make a Concede Game vote. It should be implemented to require at least a majority vote and a minimum time elapsed check (i.e. no idiots conceding a game within the first 30 seconds just for fun). If more than half the team wants to surrender and rematch, then why not give them the option to?
And I would like to point out that practically every multiplayer RTS game (War2, Total Annilhilation, Starcraft, War3) has a concede game feature to save time. Most Warcraft 3 ladder games don't last until the last building dies (usual death condition), but until a player decides hes has enough. I've had a war3 opponent say "gg man" and surrender because he lost a crucial battle even though it would have taken me 10 minutes to assemble the necessary siege equipment to bring down his base. This is how it should be in NS. Mindlessly charging the marine base because they have a ton of turrets and keep respawning isn't much fun for either side.
The cleanup phase of a game just isn't fun, and any way to code around it will improve the experiance.
What if the remaining players of the losing team want to fight it out. They shouldn't be forced to lose just because the numbers of players are unbalanced. It aint over till it's over.
But what i do not like is this a team can have 2 more people before it limits. This should be reduced to 1, there is so many games that ive lost because of the other team has 2 more. People just do not understand that uneven teams ruin the game. This isnt like CS where 8 guys with mp5s can take on 10 guys with colts. With 2 more people running around this game is generaly poinlesss, drawn way out, but pointless because ive yet to see a game thats goes 6v8 or something like that and the team that has 8 the whole game actually lose.
And people get mad at me when i ask for the game to be 7v7. Yet as SOON as someone listens to me and the game becomes even it always gets good and the battle becomes fun because it isnt one sided.
And to FLAYRA, no and auto-win would be not a good idea, people can hit f4 if they are so upset. Me i usualy fight it till the end, pist off, and then go play DoD or FA or soemthing.
What is the deal with TURRETS vs OFFENSE CHAMBERS.
I just find it harder to come back often(ok its abit on topic) as an alien because SKULKS cannot kill a room full of turrets, and lurk spikes just take to long. On the other hand a marine can get a HMG with only a upgraded armory and they can OWN offense chambers, even with a LMG they can take em out easily.
[upgrade armory is bound to be around at late game and HMG is 27rps, lerk is 33 - and lerks just cant empyt a room like a HMG can]
Offense = weak and limited at 14rps.
turrets = strong and unlimeted at 19rps.
Not even close, if nothing else offense turrets should maybe do more dmg. And turrets per turret fac should DEFINATLY be limited. So if a COMM wants more turrets he has to spit out another turret fac.
this is the biggest imbalance in the game i cant understand and hopefully you can respond.
I'd rather get to play a new game with my same team from before (i.e. people I know) than to see everyone get tired and just quit. I think this would instill a greater sense of camaderie.
Might be more work than it would be worth, but it would be cool to see a little scripted victory sequence in addition to the little music sound that plays when you win.. a little Congratulations You Won / Shame on you Loser cutscene if you will
They have this sort of thing in DoD para maps to give you a breifing in the begining. Im fully aware of the complexitivity (if thats even a word) of NS so far and this might just be more that it could handle, but there you go...
Anyways my point was that if you had this cutscene to reward your win you might not feel as bad when you dont get to level your opponents base into the ground and ridicule their mothers when they vote to surrender.
Its only realistic to assume a team of 8 marines can secure one location at a time (1 commander, a few people playing strong and cooperating, and a few people wandering around like newbs). Compare this to a team of 8 aliens who may have two or three gorges running around setting up outposts at resouce points/hives all over the map.
Marine Turret: Stronger but more time-consuming and expensive to install/maintain.
Alien Turret: Weaker but easier to install/maintain.
How was that for point/counterpoint. I doubt Flayra could have listed it better <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With an actual vote system, it wouldn't require having to coordinate everyone leaving to the ready room. A simple popup in the corner is enough for someone to decide whether or not they want to concede, and they dont have to leave the action while they wait for other players.
I don't like the "leave to ready room system" currently in place because walking around the ready room or observing while other people make up their minds isn't very interesting. Leaving combat shouldn't be mandatory to vote to concede.
Turrets on the other hand die SLOW from alien attacks, and when alein dies marine can run in, weld it real fast (which after 10rps a welder doesnt cost more RPS or anything to heal). As well ANY marine can build and ANY marine can weld as well as have a HMG.
[also you said welder is 10rps, well a gorge is 13 and a def chamber is 14. as well if a marine dies another can grab the welder if a gorge or a def die its wasted RPs]
As well marines dont need a team to build bases, if you have a non-noob comm he can switch between mulitple teams easily and establish bases fast.
And my point wasnt eactly turrets vs chambers being ACTUALLY turrets vs chambers, its there uses.
TURRETS = USEFUL - can KILL and can LIVE - alone
and
CHAMBERS = SPEED BUMP - cannot kill and require LOTS of resources and backup in order to live
[Webs did backup cahmbers nicely, until people relized welder kills webbing]
- Hows this, instead of giving chambers MORE power, make turrets just as SPEED BUMPY as them. Make it so marines actually have to back up there turrets in order for them to survive just like aliens have to.
I like FPS to be player vs player, its get rediculous in this game when it becomes player vs turrets. Now i understand its RTS as well, but i feel im safe to say this is a FPS game with bits of RTS in it, not the other way around.
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Time consumming, not really, turrets build just as fast as chambers, you just need a fac first, but if 5 marines build then turret builds WAY faster then chambers. Expensive to install yes, but worth the increase in strength 2 times over. Maintain, no way they maintain themselves, as i said, aliens do not have the fire power to deal with turrets unless you have 3 onos or fades. And if marines come to turret rescue then aleins ahve NO chance.
Gorge healing is equal or almost equal to the damage an LMG does, and doesn't require a reload. Gorge healing + defense turret healing is far faster then LMG damage.
Any commander who doesn't "back up" his outpost against a double fade attack is going to lose it pretty quick.
I'm not quite sure what you are arguing for. Any good marine team usually moves through waypoints and objectives with one team, the command interface isn't robust enough to handle multiple teams/waypoints without an extremly powerful and coordinated team.
I think what you aren't taking into consideration is that when an alien fortification is assaulted, there is a minimum of two marine players attacking (commander + marine). In most cases, there are 4+. Of course a lone defense turret can't repair to compensate that assault, it shouldn't. Without active intervention from the aliens, the outpost should fall fast. This is currently how it works. The aliens definitely are able to respond to the assault because they can see instantly where the attack is via hivesight. It should take overwhelming force to kill an alien fortification that is being defended by players on the spot. Once again, this is how I see the game being played.
From the alien perspective, usually you have a bunch of skulks running around (solo, usually) and trying to find a way to chew on the turret factory without getting shot up. Should one skulk be able to take out an unguarded marine fortification? No. One fade can, slowly. An onos can destroy an unguarded marine fortification almost immediately. I see this as balanced. Also -- before you say it... yes, a single marine with an HMG can kill alien structures with or without commander support. In my experiances, however, lone marines with or without HMG's dont survive long. When I command, I definitely dont encourage my marines to go solo with their expensive weaponry. Two fades working together can rip apart a marine fortification easily if the commander decides not to respond to it.
Turret Factory = 25
Turrets x 3 = 57
Total: 82
Offensive Alien Turret x 3 = 42
Defensive Alien Turret x 2 = 28
Total: 70
Both of these outposts are reasonably well fortified, and seem balanced to me. Even with HMG fire, one gorge hiding inside those alien turrets can keep them alive with healing spray easily.
Another benefit the aliens have is that the defensive turrets automatically heal the aliens within range. This is FAR superior then having to have your marine friend put away his weapon to heal you (and only your armor, might I add).
Its commonly said that to take a defended location, you need three times the defending force. This makes sense to me, and I see this as balanced currently within the game. There are some issues with turret massing, but I think it will be addressed when the siege weaponry works properly.
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lol@scapegoat..... YES IT IS OFFTOPIC so why do ypu post it here <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?? Im sure there is another way to contact the Devs....
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Well there is also the problem with the Winning Team taking like an hour to finish off the losing team. If it's obvious that you are going to win (Aliens down to one hive and you have turrets in all adjacent rooms) just finish it already. It doesn't take you an additional half hour to put up a freaking siege cannon or just walk in and nail the hive.
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If you are a Marine and for 1/2 or 1 hour every 10 min ONE onos comes in your base destroys very much, but not enough too kill you, its very annoying...
Because Aliens could kill the Marines if they would stick together with 3 or 4 onos
But there are also map, where Its really hard. Yesterday I pplayed a game on "Iforgotthemapsname" and we tried to finish the marines off, but the commander has built so many Turrets that we couldnt do anything with 3 onos....
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It is very annoying. And most of the time that I get a chance to play marines, I eventually have to switch to aliens anyway because I am the "nice guy" and switch when everybody is complaining because I *know* nobody else on my team is going to do a d*mn thing.
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Ill stop being the nice guy...Im **obscenity** off
And I think giving up (by pressing f4) is OK, but the whole team has to. If only 1 or 2 ppl go RR it suxx.
Aeh and as iI posted in another Thread, the last who joined the server has to switch.. and nobody else
The idea is that if there is a team difference, do not spawn those players. In this way, the reinforcement system would compensate for bad teams.
7 vs 1 ?
No problem, see how the other team likes having 1 person in the field at anyone time.
Either the ppl will switch or they will have to wait. It's not like you are naking them switch too.
I've used that a few times when the aliens have their three hives and is just drawing out the endgame for fun.
If one sight is so minimized that they can not continue or think they can not continue the game, this group should just switch to the ready room. All players in that group. Then a new game will start and the players can even the teams again.
Why should a game with 7 vs 2 go on?! This game should be fun to all. It is not fair when 2 people have to be the losers and the rest is laughing at them.
If one sight is so minimized that they can not continue or think they can not continue the game, this group should just switch to the ready room. All players in that group. Then a new game will start and the players can even the teams again.
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But it doesnt work. I never saw that *everbody* switches to the RR.
And if some Players are left in team, ppl start leaving the server, others connect and join the team that was giving up ....
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I think that a brilliant solution to the whole team size problem has already beem made on the forums.
The idea is that if there is a team difference, do not spawn those players. In this way, the reinforcement system would compensate for bad teams.
7 vs 1 ?
No problem, see how the other team likes having 1 person in the field at anyone time.
Either the ppl will switch or they will have to wait. It's not like you are naking them switch too.
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Yeah I think this a goog Idea.. dont spwan more ppl as in the other team..
If a vote can count, I vote that the teams autobalance (the newest member switches) when there is more than 1 extra person on a side.
Many times I see a 8 marine vs 6 alien game go to a 8 vs 5 to 8 vs 4, and then everyone wastes 45 minutes tackling what's left of the aliens defenses.
How many times do you see people shout "TEAMS" across your screen? It happens every other game I play on. Then, if no one switches to their team, usually people start abandoning it, but not all of them, noooooo, just enough to make it a no win situation for their team, and drag out a game that is not much of a challenge for one side, and hopeless for the other.
I don't understand why you wouldn't want autobalance on in this game which makes teamplay very necessary to win, you need a full team in order to have a chance at it.
My .02