Whats Wrong With Combat

BallistoBallisto Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">2 things</div> What we need to fix about co.

<u><b>I) Expendable lifeforms.</b></u><ul><li><u>Experience imbalance</u>. Even bad fades/onos kill more than one marine before they die. That's at least a 2:1 ratio children.*</li><li><u>Frustrating</u>. In ns, it's very satisfying when you kill a fade because he won't come back for a while. In co, it's very un-fun to have to face the same fade again before you can reload your hmg. Especially when he gloats.</li><li><u>Doesn't train newbies</u>. With expendable lifeforms, there's no incentive to stay alive. The gloating fade with a 20-9 Co score goes into an ns game, res wh*res to fade, dies, and blames it on lag.</li></ul>Less of a problem with marine equipment - everything except heavy trains is pretty expendable in ns.

*Not a huge problem in vanila co because of the 10 level cap... but on extra upgrades servers (i.e. ~90% of them) it becomes a HUGE problem!

<b><u>II) Upgrade imbalance.</u></b> Marines have the same upgrades as in ns; aliens have 6 more. There are a lot of lame combinations that come from this. Some examples:<ul><li><u>Celerity+adrenaline lerk.</u> Normally a dicey tradeoff - adren is great for sporespam but useless for fighting; celerity means you can fly fast but have to be careful with energy. Celerity+adren = endless pancaking. Try it in marine start on kestrel. You can flap around the ceiling with impunity.</li><li><u>Carapace+redem onos.</u> You can't kill the damn thing before it redeems. And you do, it'll be right back before you get a chance to reload your hmg.</li></ul>In ns, you have to make big tradeoffs on upgrades. For higher lifeforms, that means celerity WITHOUT adrenaline, which means managing your energy wisely!

In summary... training wheels are meant to help you learn to ride a bike. They're not another way to ride.


  • BrackharBrackhar Santa Monica Join Date: 2003-10-26 Member: 22004Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos
    edited July 2005
    A fair analysis of at least some of the gameplay problems that exist in CO.

  • CrazySteveCrazySteve Join Date: 2005-05-20 Member: 52045Members
    edited July 2005
    also spawncamping and a severe lack of tactics due to the kill/death ratio mentality since there is no real teamwork involved.
  • DreyaDreya Join Date: 2004-08-25 Member: 30896Members
    No, the main problem with combat is that it's not territories.

    Still, I share your sentiments.
  • ReD1ReD1 Join Date: 2004-03-18 Member: 27406Members, Constellation
  • ToothyToothy ir-regard-less Join Date: 2003-02-12 Member: 13447Members, Constellation
    I wrote like a 10 page thread about combat problems and it got fewer responses <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • EdgeEdge Join Date: 2003-10-20 Member: 21820Members, Constellation
  • Nimbus5Nimbus5 Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22885Members, Constellation
    When combat was first introduced I hated it.
    Then I started to like it every once in a while to escape from thinking.

    I think it's too big of a problem now. Waaay too many servers play only combat. Along with that, 90% of those combat servers play with about 2 million plugins, that take any fun out of combat. The way I see it, it's only fun for very small games. When you have a server with 20 people on it, all playing combat, that is just too much.

    Now because of combat, when a server ever does switch to an NS map, the games are very lame. You get teams filled with idiots, that do not communicate. I don't hate nubs, if they are willing to try and get better or listen to suggestions. It's the people running around without a care in the world that really bother me. On aliens, half the team saves for a 4 min onos rush, that can't be defended against because 80% of the marine team doesn't know what is going on.
    So fun.

    I'm really starting to like the NSArmsLab Veteren's Classic server. It's one of the last <i>mostly</i> idiot-free servers left.

    Combat sucks. 2 million plugins suck. Plugin-free classic NS FTW
  • DragonMechDragonMech Join Date: 2003-09-19 Member: 21023Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2005
    3 changes that would fix this:

    1) Make it so you have to re-earn levels when you die as a lerk, fade, onos, JP or heavy. Lerks, JP and heavies have to re-earn 1 point, fades need 2 and Oni need to regain 2-3 levels.

    2) Stop releasing the server binaries so we don't have anymore of the damn 50,000 level servers - it's just stupid for 9 out of 10 servers to have such a huge gameplay changing mod.

    3) Limit the aliens to 8 levels and no more than 1 upgrade per type. It will help reduce how overpowered the aliens are in co_ and encourage proper alien gameplay.
  • Social_OutcastSocial_Outcast Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33510Members
    edited July 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now because of combat, when a server ever does switch to an NS map, the games are very lame. You get teams filled with idiots<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Your are right about what CO does to players that try to play a classic NS game. They don't understand the Tech trees for both teams and how the RT system works. They end up causing things to go bad at the worst times, example they don't phase when they are needed to they sit in base asking for things/getting ammo or don't know how to use the gate. For aliens I have seen CO players go onos at two hives and attack MS and I hit remote Beacon and the marines kill him and he screams WTH hacks and bs even though there were like 6 marines putting fire into him with lmgs and hmgs......then after that leaves the game.....bah this is rant......to the point CO has it place it would be nice if it kinda taught ppl the tech tree but seeing how you have one hive as aliens and I agree with the CO plugins having 10 lvls is good enough it makes you think on what your going to spend you points on and plan ahead.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    And don't forget that most hive3 weapons are overpowered and way too easy to unlock in combat. Xenocide + leap = massive pwnage, and the marines never get exp when you xenocide.

    Hive 3 abilities need to disappear from combat, and then either remove or limit the Grenade Launcher (no more webs to worry about)
  • Social_OutcastSocial_Outcast Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33510Members
    yes..xeno and sof is really bad too..that way the skulk knows where the marines are clustered up when they are moving or camping....only reason I play combat is to master my hand grenade.....
  • eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Marines not getting XP for making aliens redempt is the only problem.

    Otherwise, CO is an outstanding game.
  • ArChEtYp3ArChEtYp3 Join Date: 2005-07-11 Member: 55767Members
    Years ago, when NS 1.0 was released, I was addicted to it. As time wore on, I got bored and fed up of the whole thing. Among other things, NS suffered from the same problem as UT Onslaught: when you are losing, and your team sucks, its no fun.
    A long time later I downloaded an update for NS out of boredom and played CO. Found it quite fun and played it occasionally, but didn't bother with classic anymore.
    Recently I'm playing a lot more online games than I have for a while, getting semi-serious into HL deathmatch. HLDM is hard tho, with all the 5+ years pro players. So when I feel like a break I play some combat, which is a walkover by comparison and a nice ego boost. The pace and the non-serious teamplay is an ideal balance a bit like TFC.
    So yeah, actually I could care less about classic NS and I'm waiting for more combat only servers (specially the 32 players).
  • Nimbus5Nimbus5 Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22885Members, Constellation
    <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Classic NS involves thinking and teamwork. Even if you lose it can still be fun if you put up a long fight.

    The way combat is right now, new players don't really learn from it. It's too mindless, especially with the million plugin servers.
  • ArChEtYp3ArChEtYp3 Join Date: 2005-07-11 Member: 55767Members
    I like it fast and mindless. Play Classic for long enough and the strategies are always the same in the end anyway. So its just slow and mindless.
    I agree about the plugins, though. While some of them are a good idea (maximum level raise), most are stupid.
  • 2_of_Eight2_of_Eight Join Date: 2003-08-20 Member: 20016Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-ArChEtYp3+Jul 11 2005, 10:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ArChEtYp3 @ Jul 11 2005, 10:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like it fast and mindless. Play Classic for long enough and the strategies are always the same in the end anyway. So its just slow and mindless.
    I agree about the plugins, though. While some of them are a good idea (maximum level raise), most are stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I hope you're joking <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • mmcmikemmcmike Join Date: 2005-03-16 Member: 45517Members
    co is fun with 2-10 ppl and no plugins and a low timelimit. co is not fun with unlimited levels and unlimited adren + all abilities = onos faster than cel skulks and 1000hp1000ap. somehow servers that run games like this get all the players. really hard to find a good classic game going on.
  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members
    The thing about plugins is there's one for nearly every conceivable want or need you have, and if we don't have it, and it's a reasonable request, we'll get it made for you.

    That being said, if you want to play competitive combat by all means run the <a href='http://nsmod.ugleague.org/forums1/index.php?showtopic=155' target='_blank'>Competitive Combat plugin</a> which creates the following changes<ul><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.</li></ul>
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    yet again it has to be pointed out to you that the problem is the plugins, not lack of them.
  • Al_KaholicAl_Kaholic Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25821Members, Constellation
    Not even just that, but some plugins seem to "overstep their boundaries", so to speak - altering the fundamental game so drastically that modded servers are far more appealing to play on [and run] than more standard installations.
  • Nimbus5Nimbus5 Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22885Members, Constellation
    The two most popular plugins seem to be late join and extra levels.
    I really really really hate late join more than anything. I wish people just played the game like it was when they downloaded it. With late join, it seems like every game, about half way through someone will join aliens, go onos immediatley and have an ending score of 9999 and 2.
    It also pretty much rewards you for stacking the winning team. h8tred for this plugin

    Extra levels takes combat games, and stretches them out to be as painfully long as possible. Also, it requires no thinking or planning, because you have so many levels it doesn't matter what you spend your points on because you'll just keep leveling up.
    Combat was meant to be short, when servers run all these plugins, the games become 30+ minutes long, and that's just not right...
  • eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I say again:

    The only problem with combat is that marines get no XP for making aliens redeem.
  • Diablo_fxDiablo_fx Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13793Members
    edited July 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-Edge+Jul 11 2005, 11:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edge @ Jul 11 2005, 11:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> agree <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • The_FinchThe_Finch Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8498Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-mmcmike+Jul 11 2005, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mmcmike @ Jul 11 2005, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> co is fun with 2-10 ppl and no plugins and a low timelimit. co is not fun with unlimited levels and unlimited adren + all abilities = onos faster than cel skulks and 1000hp1000ap. somehow servers that run games like this get all the players. really hard to find a good classic game going on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Maybe a lot of people simply find modded combat more fun than regular NS?

    And why shouldn't they. No commander. No depending on the comm or gorge for upgrades. When that guy with a ping of 300 kills you when you're well around the corner, you can just regestate. With extra levels, you're not punished for getting xeno if you want to Onos later. Late join means you're not an unupgraded skulk vs. JP/HMGs. The action is pretty much constant instead of sporadic. The complaints are far fewer and are mostly about blocking. The open ridicule from your team is certainly less.
  • morphzmorphz Join Date: 2003-04-19 Member: 15640Members, Constellation
    edited July 2005
    I definately thing combat needs fixing, especially for the reasons you stated. It makes new players completely dependable on all the upgrades, and never worrying if they die, then they go to ns_, save up go fade, realise they cant get all the upgrades, but they still fade anyway, and just get slaughted, thinking they can refade.

    I had an idea of having one upgrade per chamber, like in ns_, but have each stage of the upgrade, like 1 point = 1 celerity upgrade, like having 1 chamber in ns_, then another point for 2nd celerity level, like 2nd chamber, it might take some tweaking but the aliens will be able to get level3 of every upgrade with 9 points. Give the aliens more upgrade total points?

    Something has to be done about combat, its totally ruining ns_, during the end of 2.0 people were getting better at ns_ and you could have a decent game, i havent had a good game of ns_ since... well i cant even remember <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • i_be_doh9i_be_doh9 Join Date: 2005-07-11 Member: 55747Members
    The things that I think would fix CO the best are:

    (1) You can only get one upgrade from each chamber until you get one from each and have the two hive skill (for skulk that is leap + one sensory, one defense, and one movement).

    (2) In order to get the three hive skill, you have to already have one upgrade from each chamber (this balances just enough so that in 10-level CO, you can get an Onos with three upgrades and all bonus hive skills only).

    (3) Marines get half of the possible experience points if the target alien gets a redemption.

    (4) No points for being behind. This is what kills the game the most imo. It creates its own need by making crapy players get big guns/horns that make other crapy players get a few new hole in their faces.
  • PA_UrielPA_Uriel Join Date: 2005-07-14 Member: 55912Members
    I personally think that combat was a bad idea, NS was supposed to be a tactical team based game.

    I kinda like CO, but it's just not the same as NS. NS had that feeling to it, you know. You go down a hall with a buddy or two, or none, then you hear the scurrying of skulks rushing towards you, no other game has that feeling.

    CO just ruins the atmospere, it's to much like every other Counter-Strike wannabe out there.

    In closing, I miss NS, as I can never find an NS server that doesn't lag, doesn't use stupid maps that are bassically hallways, or isn't empty and forgotten.

    I suggest macking NS and NS: Combat seperate games, and take them in different derections from now on.
  • SuitePeeSuitePee Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32857Members
    edited July 2005
    Most NS games I play last about 15 minutes tops. I barely notice the difference between CO and NS sometimes,what with the spawning,except that in CO you spawn faster. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    If you don't like CO,don't play it. The message will get across for change,then you'll have to vote for it via a democratic system of YOU'RE PRO/GAMETESTER/1337,YOUR VOTE COUNTS FOR 200.

    /sacrasmmenu <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    There are many things wrong with combat. One is that it exists. Two is that it still exists,and three is that people play it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • CrazySteveCrazySteve Join Date: 2005-05-20 Member: 52045Members
    combat is fun with anywhere from 4 to 8 people, and the only plugin i really like is the late join, you shouldn't be spawn raped for half an hour because you joined 5 mins late

    (i haven't tried out the competitive combat plug yet because honestly i don't play combat unless its over lan, and then its already a small game with friends so i don;t really worry about it yet.)

    the problem with combat is that the games get way to big, and even then they involve no strategy, in a 15vs15 game, i bet an organized team could end it in the first 30 seconds, instead of just sitting around spawnkilling trying to get up their kill death ratio

    there are 2 problems with combat
    1. the type of gameplay it is brings nothing to ns because of its no strategy theme
    2. the type of people it attracts usually aren't going to contribute anything to original ns because they prefer deathmatch style games and don't want to think when they fight.
  • AmbrosekAmbrosek Join Date: 2003-12-06 Member: 24018Members
    To me...

    The major problem is

    "upgrades and abilities unbalance"

    "leap+xeno" = 3 points
    Regen+Cara+redemp = 3 points
    Foucs+leap/cele = 3 points

    with above upgrades u can bring your team to an ownage.

    However, poor rines.
    What u can get by your points are normal upgrade. dmg, sg, hmg/gl

    There s not an upgrade call "beacon"
    Not an upgrade call "dual sg, dual pistol, dual hmg, dual GL"
    sure they cant take cata forever.

    Rines: Normal upgrades.
    Aliens: unlimited .

    Even they get a shotty with lv 3 dmg and jp
    they can easily pwned by a paper fade.

    This is the problem.

    Classic marines Vesus Satan-like Aliens.

    Co is a joke
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