Cooperation, Ns, Fun, Various Ns Versions, Pubs
moultano
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">an idea</div> In 1.04 for those who don't know, lifeforms were linked to hives. You couldn't get fades until you had two hives, you couldn't get onos until you had 3 hives.
A lot of people have stated in the past that 1.04 was the most fun version of the game. I don't entirely agree. I think ns in 1.04 was more exciting, though not as consistently fun as later versions. However, I think I know why people arrive at that conclusion.
In 1.04 it was not possible for an individual on the alien team to advance at all without accomplishing team objectives. No matter how good you were, or what you did, you couldn't be anything bigger than a lerk with one upgrade and two weapon slots, unless you helped your team get a second hive.
It was also not possible to get a hive without having one person gorge from the start, and protecting that person at all costs. If somebody ramboed your gorge, you were **ked.
To complete the picture, let me propose and idea that may be met with some controversy: In general, players on an uncoordinated public server will take the path of least resistance.
In 2.0 and later, it is possible for a player to advance without accomplishing team objectives. They aren't as effective, but they can feel like they are making progress.
Contrast that against 1.04. In order to advance you have to work your **** off to make sure that this particular single player on your team never dies, ever. If he's getting attacked you have to get there immediately. There is no excuse. Every single turning point in the game is clearly marked, and if you don't help out, you might as well not be playing. It was like the Vip on one of those seldom played CS maps, except that wiping out the other team wasn't an option.
I think this is the reason why people feel 1.04 was more fun. On a public server, the game structure of 1.04 was a lot more likely to promote team play and had more obvious moments of excitement. 3.x while it offers a far greater variety of strategies, doesn't have as many obvious, exciting, make or break moments for the public player on an unorganized server.
Particularly, as the playing population begins to wind down due to competition from other games and lack of high profile exposure (here's hoping for the my games list) this lack of clear structure means that a lot of games begin still born. In 1.04 no matter when you came on a server, you knew what you had to do. Find the gorge, protect him, put up hives. These days it isn't as obvious and with people dropping on and off of servers, the games languish.
Thoughts?
A lot of people have stated in the past that 1.04 was the most fun version of the game. I don't entirely agree. I think ns in 1.04 was more exciting, though not as consistently fun as later versions. However, I think I know why people arrive at that conclusion.
In 1.04 it was not possible for an individual on the alien team to advance at all without accomplishing team objectives. No matter how good you were, or what you did, you couldn't be anything bigger than a lerk with one upgrade and two weapon slots, unless you helped your team get a second hive.
It was also not possible to get a hive without having one person gorge from the start, and protecting that person at all costs. If somebody ramboed your gorge, you were **ked.
To complete the picture, let me propose and idea that may be met with some controversy: In general, players on an uncoordinated public server will take the path of least resistance.
In 2.0 and later, it is possible for a player to advance without accomplishing team objectives. They aren't as effective, but they can feel like they are making progress.
Contrast that against 1.04. In order to advance you have to work your **** off to make sure that this particular single player on your team never dies, ever. If he's getting attacked you have to get there immediately. There is no excuse. Every single turning point in the game is clearly marked, and if you don't help out, you might as well not be playing. It was like the Vip on one of those seldom played CS maps, except that wiping out the other team wasn't an option.
I think this is the reason why people feel 1.04 was more fun. On a public server, the game structure of 1.04 was a lot more likely to promote team play and had more obvious moments of excitement. 3.x while it offers a far greater variety of strategies, doesn't have as many obvious, exciting, make or break moments for the public player on an unorganized server.
Particularly, as the playing population begins to wind down due to competition from other games and lack of high profile exposure (here's hoping for the my games list) this lack of clear structure means that a lot of games begin still born. In 1.04 no matter when you came on a server, you knew what you had to do. Find the gorge, protect him, put up hives. These days it isn't as obvious and with people dropping on and off of servers, the games languish.
Thoughts?
Comments
Just state it in a small sentence for those who don't have the brain capacity to comprehend right now.
the most important early unit, but I do agree with you, the
games back then did have more teamwork and people
working together to establish hives, chambers, etc...
Needless to say, it was very exciting back then cause it was
more of an oh **** once a second hive went up...
the most important early unit, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The res system.
This should tell you enough.
the most important early unit, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The res system.
This should tell you enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes.... if i recall, the more gorges you had, the less the total income to the alien players overall
hence the need for 1 gorge, and lots of cover for that gorge
Disagree. Totally.
Disagree. Totally. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you're totally wrong
Ebag's plugin does handle changing this moderatly well, but it's not without its problems. We're starting to test the plugin on our server weekly on Tuesdays, feel free to stop by and check it out.
-Brackhar
bad move imho
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> modns
As mr Brackhar stated rightfully : 1.04 needed Teamwork more than this version. "Teamwork" means ppl at the same location to do things. That mean these ppl had to leave other places. This was about choice... And for the greater fun that was sometimes : RealTime Strategic choices, and how these choices make the team win (or loose).
Even in these 1.x version we were playing "MC first" or "SC first". That's why it was fun. A lot of people were not able to realise that DC wasn't the only choice. And so, they didn't have the right behavior to counter it. We heard things like this : "How is it possible i didn't hear the skulk?", "WTH i checked this place, i've seen nothing". If played correctly, all chamber were decent first chamber with the right guys. But more than today the team had to act as one. The actions had to be done by several players. The team had to have a plan, and an adaptive one for being the most reactive, and be able to choose. That's what i call strategy.
As NS evolved to something more "tight" to avoid exploit, abuse of some tricks like the JP/HMG rush, etc (the list is long). It's clear that choices are reduced.
As it can be seen on ENSL your team participate in... We clearly see all the team try do do the same. And that is because the most efficient things to do for the win are already written. There are no surprises for players.
For an example : as marins: Is your team electrify ?
The only tactics were, JP HMG rush for marine. DC and hope to hell you get second hive up before they get jetpacks to take them down, without any fades they were totally useless. Also if the gorge got taken out, pretty much game over as it delayed the hive = JP HMG owned.
As mr Brackhar stated rightfully : 1.04 needed Teamwork more than this version. "Teamwork" means ppl at the same location to do things. That mean these ppl had to leave other places. This was about choice... And for the greater fun that was sometimes : RealTime Strategic choices, and how these choices make the team win (or loose).
Even in these 1.x version we were playing "MC first" or "SC first". That's why it was fun. A lot of people were not able to realise that DC wasn't the only choice. And so, they didn't have the right behavior to counter it. We heard things like this : "How is it possible i didn't hear the skulk?", "WTH i checked this place, i've seen nothing". If played correctly, all chamber were decent first chamber with the right guys. But more than today the team had to act as one. The actions had to be done by several players. The team had to have a plan, and an adaptive one for being the most reactive, and be able to choose. That's what i call strategy.
As NS evolved to something more "tight" to avoid exploit, abuse of some tricks like the JP/HMG rush, etc (the list is long). It's clear that choices are reduced.
As it can be seen on ENSL your team participate in... We clearly see all the team try do do the same. And that is because the most efficient things to do for the win are already written. There are no surprises for players.
For an example : as marins: Is your team electrify ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine:
1.04: JP/HMG.
3.0: JP rush, HA rush, PG/SG rush, middle hive PG lockdown, heavy res pressure (ie. early shotgun), early HMGs, early upgrades, early MT, the list goes on.
Alien:
1.04: Desperately try to kill marine RTs, possibly get several lerks to try to counter JP/HMG. Permgorge necessity to get hive up early.
3.0: perm gorge or no perm gorge?, two or three early rts?, early upgrades?, no longer dms, all chambers are almost equally viable although mc is the current favourite, early lerk? etc...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is accurate. Teamwork is equally essential to the current version to really succeed, but because individual advancement is possible without it, the path of least resistance results in little teamwork in public servers.
Really? I (and i m not alone) never ever needed another skulk to kill a marins. More of that. The laggin problem due to server (software) performance was an gift to anybody who knew how to BH. Sometime even on good servers (hardware) ping were getting so high that a marins could not take out a wounded skulk. And that was worst with celerity. Even with good ADSL connection (~30 or less on CS) or in LAN. If what you say was true we would have see 2-2 all the time. How it was possible to see so many 4-0 in the top ten CB teams?
Fana:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.0: JP rush, HA rush, PG/SG rush, middle hive PG lockdown, heavy res pressure (ie. early shotgun), early HMGs, early upgrades, early MT, the list goes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All this was done at least one time in clanbase (top ten) matchs at that 1.04 time. Even some teams had their specialities (HA, early pg/shogun rush etc..). But i agree they were not giving the tip to all... The more discreet it was the more the surprise was big. As you know surprise buys time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.04: Desperately try to kill marine RTs, possibly get several lerks to try to counter JP/HMG. Permgorge necessity to get hive up early.
3.0: perm gorge or no perm gorge?, two or three early rts?, early upgrades?, no longer dms, all chambers are almost equally viable although mc is the current favourite, early lerk? etc... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree the marins RT were hard to destroy. But there was a better way. Intercept the marins before they build too much RT... Silence was in 1.04 as it's still one of the best abilities in the game. And early upgrade was not exeptional. Some teams were fond of this one too...
Because i saw them do that.
Maybe on a public server where people couldn't aim or bunnyhop backwards? I would love to see you try to kill a backwards bunnyhopping marine. I think your forgetting carapace was TOTALLY essential to survive and have any chance to kill as alien, sure you may get lucky and kill a marine with an ambush without carapace, but then most people just bunnyhop away and shoot the skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If what you say was true we would have see 2-2 all the time. How it was possible to see so many 4-0 in the top ten CB teams?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Outskilled? Killed JP HMG rush? I dont know exactally what happened in this matches but the marines were totally overpowered compared to skulks.
That's a bit closer to the point I was trying to make. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Brackhar