Yet Another Thread About Ns:s
Lofung
Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Let's imagine....</div> what if bunnyhop was removed?
what would be the impact to ns..?
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what would be the impact to ns..?
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Comments
what would be the impact to ns..?
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NS Dumbs down to twitch skills... YAY!
Really, you have to think exactly how is bhopping being removed? is the ability to bounce leaving? just the air accel like HL2DM did? adding a stopmove like marines currently have?
There are a few options, and to be honest none of them are exceptionally great at filling the gap. Really the only way to "remove" bhopping is to replace it, and you need to come up with a good way to replace it while still keeping the benifits the current bhop has.
You need to realize that at compeditive level play bhopping is more then just a method of getting from point A to point B faster then max run speed. single jump glides are used to dodge fire up close and close distance after knockback. The loss of either air manuverability or air accelleration is a HUGE nerf to aliens in the compeditive arena, way more so then even just the loss of the ability to cover ground as quickly as is currently possible. Even fades largely use bhopping to conserve energy, gorges to avoid being total fodder, and skulks retain leap accelleration after touchdown.
Combine that with proper hitboxes and NS:S needs to be TOTALLY rebalanced for compeditive play.
ok as far as i know, bhop is a bug. what if it is fixed by a proper mean, not adding a stopmove. perhaps nss isnt, what about ns 2?
The Valve monkies coded in bunnyhopping in Source, but it's disabled by default.
I'm not techy, so I have no idea whether you have to edit-in some code, or whether it's a server-side variable (propably the former, as I've never heard of bhop-enabled HL2DM servers).
There's minimal skill required, no button combinations, all you have to do is hit the jump button when you touch down from the previous one. You can do it in HL2 singleplayer if you want to try it out.
Now I can't bunnyhop. I've read articles on how to do it, but I haven't played NS nearly enough in the last 8 months to merit having a proper attempt at it. I used to be able to conc/rocket/grenade jump in TFC so I'm sure I won't have any problems. [Edit] Just before someone says it's not the same, save yourself some embarassment, I don't like being patronised.
TBH I think the bunnyhop should stay if possible. These self-trained doctrines are integral to the competitive scene, especially if they're the sort that give you more options (movement being a prime example). I don't think NS should be dumbed down anymore. I like the idea of tutorials to at least explain the basics (a more advanced set of tuts would be even better - bunnyhopping, lerk movement, commander hotkey setup and use, etc.).
I also have my fingers crossed for some sort of 'random' spread (within a known and shown area like the crosshair) for the shotgun. Custom sprites are such lose.
I've managed to get something like a bunnyhop out in HL2 singleplayer. Good for running from Antlions/closing the distance to anything for a shotgun-based Ker-POW!
*edit* I've just been informed that my bouncing along in HL2 isn't a bhop. But something along the lines of it exists in HL2, so I'd imagine the same rule would apply for NS:S
Without a sec of doubt, if it is feature, let it be implemeted into NS:S of cos, if it is a bug, eradicate it!
Bhop isn't a bug. Thought that people might know that by now.
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<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+ Apr 17 2002, 09:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Apr 17 2002, 09:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, this may end up being removed, but currently, aliens with the speed upgrade can bunny hop. Basically, Valve's fix is applied to everyone else, but aliens with speed.
<b>Unlike in most other online games, I think bunny hopping is actually "in character" for the aliens, so I don't see it being bad, but good.</b>
I've thought a lot about adding a marine stamina bar, but it won't go in unless it's really necessary. It's just one more thing to worry about and explain to the player (though this is familiar to many people by now). I mostly wanted the stamina bar so marines could choose to sprint for short distances occasionally, while keeping their general movement speed down (needed for the commander).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for NS:S I do hope they replace bunnyhopping with a more superiour alternate for alien movement. Myself I can bunnyhop well, but it is not something I like to see in NS. To me, it is like the complex button sequence in a fighting game. Those who spend days on end practicing down-downright-right + Y are eventually rewarded by being able to spam hadokens at their enemy non stop, but when you stop to think about it, that is both cheesy and degrades gameplay. True gameplay should not be so greatly balanced on the ability of a player to press buttons in a sequenced order, but rather on universal skill.
QFT
The HL2DM method of removing bhop is probably the one that will be most considered. What I'm saying is I really don't want it to happen, as I'm all but positive it will take a compleate rebalanceing for clan play if it does. we rely on our predictable arks and high length jumps to fill the gap when playing against players who could seriously compeate with aimbots in thier hit percentages. It might not sound like a big deal, but to a compeditive player, a glide jump is the only thing that saves our butts after knockback is applied and our opponent is sent flying across the room. Nerf or remove it and compeditively skulks don't kill marines any more. That's a pretty big gap to fill.
That is like saying aiming is just point and click. Bunnyhopping is a skill like any other, it takes practice and timing to get better at it. If any of the special movement techniques were taken out of NS:S it would dull the game, as I think the movement is what makes NS unique. I can't even play another game without trying to strafe jump repeatedly.
Only thing I think they should change is to make the jumping similar to Quake, where you just had to hold the jump key down midair in order to jump on the next landing. It would make bhopping easier for new players to pick up without having to get a 3jump script.
Ain't that the damn truth.
Honestly, 4 months ago when I was a pubber who had no detailed knowledge, I couldn't wait for NS:S.
Now that I can bhop, glide jump, etc, I've found that it adds SO much depth to the game it's ridiculous. I have fun just hopping/gliding around before a scrim starts. I love the movement options available to me in fights.
So naturally, now I'm scared of NS:S. It's SUPPOSED to be a port of NS to a new engine.
This isn't Counter-Strike, where both teams have guns and so movement doesn't matter as much as aim.
This game has a melee side and a ranged side. As such, movement is THE most important skill you can learn in the game.
The bottom line is that if the movement code is changed, it will cease to be NS as we know it.
Something that adds so much depth can't be removed. It's practically an art form.
oh goody!
Street fighter... hell yeah
Anyway... I liked the bunny hopping in Quake 2 before one of the higher numbered patches the smacked it down. Just hold down strafe left, forward, and tap jump, and ZOOOOM.
HL2NS would be fine with BHing if you wont need a script for it. If it wasnt in the game, I guess some depth would be removed, but I dont BH, and still do well as alien without BHing or gliding
BTW, what does QFT mean?
[Edit] BTW QFT means Quoted For Truth FTW IMO OMG BBQ
Forgive my nitpicking, but how do you know you do just as well when you don't do it?
I don't think the competitive NS scene is interested in 64+ players or built-in plugin support. There haven't been any real improvements to the netcode, as far as I can tell. Public NS players would certainly enjoy Source, mainly for the graphical and physics upgrade, but I don't see any benefits for competitive players.
I don't think the competitive NS scene is interested in 64+ players or built-in plugin support. There haven't been any real improvements to the netcode, as far as I can tell. Public NS players would certainly enjoy Source, mainly for the graphical and physics upgrade, but I don't see any benefits for competitive players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The benefits that the "competitive scene" would be "interested" in are the same benefits that are the only real reasons to move to a new engine. I don't know if you were around for the transition from 1.0x to 2.0, but it illustrates clearly the problems of developing for an engine that, at its core, is running close to 10 years old.
The problem was that in 1.0x, every alien played with really odd and non-intuitive hitboxes. Flayra decided to fix that in 2.0, but the fact is that before that, everything had been balanced around the buggy hitboxes, most notably the hitpoints. The release of 2.0 took way, way, way longer than it should have because of the major balance changes that needed to be taken care of because of bugs like that. A new engine with a more reasonable physics model, more streamlined netcode and more leeway for programming inventive ideas will make developing the game easier, on the long run.
That hopefully means that the popularity growth of NS:S won't be stunted like NS's was. A more popular game means more clans. More clans means a better competitive environment. Of course, this may not be "interesting" like shiny new graphics would be.
That is like saying aiming is just point and click. Bunnyhopping is a skill like any other, it takes practice and timing to get better at it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, and I intended it as such. If you think about it, point and click aiming is NOT universal skill, as I have stated. Universal skill encompasses much more than just being able to point and click. Case in point: why a group of near-perfect aimers can still lose to good strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Renegade, bhopping is NOTHING like street fighter combos... It's quite accessable for those who put a little time into it, but the real skill isn't being able to reach top speed down a long hallway... Bhopping is about making proper lines over difficult terrain and useing the slight air accell of glide jumps to close distance faster in combat situations. The problem with bhopping is that it is insanely difficult to do or learn with a default config, but that isn't the problem of the players, that's the problem of the game. I only spent a day or two learning how to bhop, but I've spent the rest of my playing career mastering what can be done with the skill. It's not a simple button sequence, it's like any other skill, minute to learn lifetime to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't take the analogy so literally; of course it involves more than just a button sequence, but nonetheless it is a patterned sequence that detracts from the gameplay. Why? because the gameplay relies on it too heavily. If bunnyhopping only played a small part in gameplay, and other, more global skills played a larger part, than bunnyhopping would be balanced, however, as current, it plays possibly a larger part than most other skills. A skulk properly bunnyhopping can pose more of a threat than a skulk who has carapace, celerity, and knows how to bite well. When, if you think about NS gameplay, it should be the other way around. You should be more greatly rewarded for having upgrades, rather than on your ability to perform a sequenced task.
Granted, it does get challenging when learning to negotiate corners and walls while maintaining speed, but the challenge needs to be proportionate. Challenge emphases should be placed more on gameplay features and less on specific motions. Much like the marine dodging tactics. I view marine dodging tactics as the ideal bunnyhopping: it is an individual skill, a series of movements, that when performed tactifully can aid the marine in combat, HOWEVER it does NOT play a larger role than, lets say, having a good comm, or upgrades, or high weapons. Even a pancaking lerk does not afford himself such an advantage in gameplay as a bunnyhopping skulk.
Ideally, what I'm saying is this: whether bunnyhopping is left in or out, it MUST be prioritzed in accordance with gameplay, and should not so overly power other features, that require more universal skill and thusly should be rewarded more so (such as good teamwork, getting res and upgrades, etc).
Currently, the difference between a bunnyhopping skulk and a walking skulk can sway the outcome of a game MUCH MUCH more than good team work, or getting upgrades (which is what NS should truly be about). This needs to change. Bunnyhopping can stay, but it should NOT provide such a vast advantage for a manevour that, in the grand scheme of gameplay, does not deserve to be rewarded so greatly.
I disagree. As an FPS, skill should be foremost in importance. If you place the favor on upgrades no matter how good the player is, then you're more and more just getting 'artificial skill' from your upgrades.
They compliment a character, not simply make him better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Challenge emphases should be placed more on gameplay features and less on specific motions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree. The aliens are ALL about movement. Movement is THE one most important skill an alien absolutely must have.
You act as if bunnyhopping is repetitive. I don't think it is at all, which is why I can have fun hopping around before a scrim starts.
Please, as if it's not said enough, bunnyhopping at marines is really not a good way to get kills, even on publc with celerity. Skulk upgrades are far, far more powerful than bunnyhopping will ever be in combat.