Cloaking
Confusion
Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22108Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22108Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">What kind of random system is this?</div> I'd like to try to keep this discussion based around competitive play:
In a match or scrim setting, cloaking is frowned upon. Why is this? It's a valid part of the game many say. Well all of us have heard the retort, "cloaking counters fun." And I feel that this is just 100% the case. Sure I've played many pub games where I crept up to some nub marines (nub as in not heavily tweaked/lucky settings/monitor or hackers) and proceeded to bite their legs from under them. No. I've really liked the idea of cloaking. Forcing the commander to move slowly through the map with observatories and pinging, which is rather easy now with 2 pings off the bat and 15 res obs. Forcing marines to stick together and upgrade armor first. All wonderful tactics which are relatively enjoyable.
However the one part of cloaking which just sucks, is the random %cloaked thing. This is a HUGE problem both as a marine and as a alien. If you have a monitor/graphics card which keeps cloaked skulks cloaked or aren't expert enough to tweak your settings so that you can see cloaked skulks you are screwed. You can only move in pinged areas, or just jump around hopeing that you wont get bitten. I personally can see skulks only when moving FASTER than walking, which i believe is how it is supposed to be. However when skulking I notice that some people can't see me even if i go a little bit faster than walking, or slip up by turning while walking or something like that. At the same time, other people can see me all the time. I can be hiding on the wall and not moving, not even touching my mouse and i get blasted when they come around the corner (no they didn't have mt)
This is my problem with cloaking. It's too variable. If cloaking was less bad late game, I would probably quit ns, because more people would use cloaking first. As it is it's ok with a good comm you can usually counter cloaking first (in scrim/matches) so not many teams use it first. However vs a bad comm cloaking is an instant win(or would be vs people with my monitor/graphics settings)
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Back to the point of all this
Visibility should be determined by the game. It should be on or off. Having %cloaking values leads to a huge degree of uncertainty and discrepancy amoung players. Why should one person be able to see cloakers? while another cant? If you have 100% cloaking and 0% or even 50% just so you can see them uncloak. This would level the playing field and you would know whether or not you were visible, and not have to guess your opponents monitor settings.
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In this set up would you have walking being visible or not? See personally I feel that cloaking is too strong, but there are too many counters on the marine hand also. If cloaking only worked for still aliens, but ping energy/obs costs were pushed back up to what they used to be, cloaking could be fun for both teams and not just aliens if there's a bad comm, and marines if there's a good one.
Confusion
In a match or scrim setting, cloaking is frowned upon. Why is this? It's a valid part of the game many say. Well all of us have heard the retort, "cloaking counters fun." And I feel that this is just 100% the case. Sure I've played many pub games where I crept up to some nub marines (nub as in not heavily tweaked/lucky settings/monitor or hackers) and proceeded to bite their legs from under them. No. I've really liked the idea of cloaking. Forcing the commander to move slowly through the map with observatories and pinging, which is rather easy now with 2 pings off the bat and 15 res obs. Forcing marines to stick together and upgrade armor first. All wonderful tactics which are relatively enjoyable.
However the one part of cloaking which just sucks, is the random %cloaked thing. This is a HUGE problem both as a marine and as a alien. If you have a monitor/graphics card which keeps cloaked skulks cloaked or aren't expert enough to tweak your settings so that you can see cloaked skulks you are screwed. You can only move in pinged areas, or just jump around hopeing that you wont get bitten. I personally can see skulks only when moving FASTER than walking, which i believe is how it is supposed to be. However when skulking I notice that some people can't see me even if i go a little bit faster than walking, or slip up by turning while walking or something like that. At the same time, other people can see me all the time. I can be hiding on the wall and not moving, not even touching my mouse and i get blasted when they come around the corner (no they didn't have mt)
This is my problem with cloaking. It's too variable. If cloaking was less bad late game, I would probably quit ns, because more people would use cloaking first. As it is it's ok with a good comm you can usually counter cloaking first (in scrim/matches) so not many teams use it first. However vs a bad comm cloaking is an instant win(or would be vs people with my monitor/graphics settings)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Back to the point of all this
Visibility should be determined by the game. It should be on or off. Having %cloaking values leads to a huge degree of uncertainty and discrepancy amoung players. Why should one person be able to see cloakers? while another cant? If you have 100% cloaking and 0% or even 50% just so you can see them uncloak. This would level the playing field and you would know whether or not you were visible, and not have to guess your opponents monitor settings.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In this set up would you have walking being visible or not? See personally I feel that cloaking is too strong, but there are too many counters on the marine hand also. If cloaking only worked for still aliens, but ping energy/obs costs were pushed back up to what they used to be, cloaking could be fun for both teams and not just aliens if there's a bad comm, and marines if there's a good one.
Confusion
Comments
Theres a thread not to far under this one describing a way to make cloaked items show up easily. Since it even works on cloaked buildings (which I think are always 100% cloaked), I'm not sure if your solution would actually work.
With my non-tweaked settings, running aliens (30% visible?) are much more annoying to track at high speeds, but can be seen without too much trouble. Walking aliens (10% visible?) can be just barely seen if I slow down myself and concentrate on the space I expect them to be. Still aliens I can't see at all. This is how it should be, I think.
There was at least one version I played where the cloak percentages made me unable to see cloak-walking aliens who were walking straight up to my face while I was staring at that spot trying to spot cloakers. That's too good. On the other hand, I too have played against players who seem to be able to find me while 100% cloaked and not moving. That is simply unfair. So what's the solution? I honestly don't know.
All it takes is a few cloaked skulks and all the marines you had building nodes are dead. It takes 3 or so focus skulks and those marines you had rushing cargo with the sensory in are down without a chance (unless you scan but then the skulks just rush you in the next room, so you have to move either really quickly and get an obs in a central location or move really slowly and scan often, either way you're under great risk from the inevitable skill-less cloakers).
There was at least one version I played where the cloak percentages made me unable to see cloak-walking aliens who were walking straight up to my face while I was staring at that spot trying to spot cloakers. That's too good.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can see walking skulks when looking for them. I cannot. Unless they break the walking barrier AND i'm looking directly at them and not moving then i can see them. "running" skulks i can see always without hassle
Theres a thread not to far under this one describing a way to make cloaked items show up easily. Since it even works on cloaked buildings (which I think are always 100% cloaked), I'm not sure if your solution would actually work.
With my non-tweaked settings, running aliens (30% visible?) are much more annoying to track at high speeds, but can be seen without too much trouble. Walking aliens (10% visible?) can be just barely seen if I slow down myself and concentrate on the space I expect them to be. Still aliens I can't see at all. This is how it should be, I think.
There was at least one version I played where the cloak percentages made me unable to see cloak-walking aliens who were walking straight up to my face while I was staring at that spot trying to spot cloakers. That's too good. On the other hand, I too have played against players who seem to be able to find me while 100% cloaked and not moving. That is simply unfair. So what's the solution? I honestly don't know. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing is ever 100% cloaked. The highest percentage is 95%. Running skulks are pretty easy to spot, especially when they're crossing textures. Anytime a cloaked alien is moving, even if they're walking, even if they're just turning, you can spot them.
If a marine comes around a corner and shoots you, chances are you were just sitting in a spot he expected you to be in.
I fluctuate back and forth over whether or not cloaking is balanced. On the one hand, its incredibly annoying being hit by a skulk from a place you just looked at. On the other, sensories leave the aliens open to an electrification strat, especially if the marines can get a phase in one of the hives.
The counter to that is scent of fear.A good lerk with scent of fear can keep track of the entire marine team and easily prevent ninja phases. Still, its pretty easy to take down alien nodes if the area is pinged. If you use your map during the ping, you can see the locations of all the aliens in the area. If you have multiple observatories, the comm can consistentally ping the area and prevent cloaked aliens from attacking.
Asshatery noted btw <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> by those responsible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing is ever 100% cloaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder if this is the design or the limitations to the hl engine.
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OH RIGHT SQUEEK I FORGOT HUMOUR ISN'T ALLOWED ON THE COMPETITIVE FORUMS.
Asshatery noted btw <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> by those responsible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing is ever 100% cloaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder if this is the design or the limitations to the hl engine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well,
100% cloak would mean invisible. And not drawing something is easier on the engine than only rarely drawing something or using some kind of alpha blending pattern in order to make it appear only partially.
Asshatery noted btw <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> by those responsible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing is ever 100% cloaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder if this is the design or the limitations to the hl engine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Design. Simply not rendering something would prevent it from being seen at all, tweaked visual settings/hardware or not. I also believe buildings are 90% cloaked, they are simply very difficult to see due to not moving at all really. The reason most cloaked aliens are seen is the blur created over certain textures that's easily recognizable as a signature. On all the metal textures I see cloaked skulks pretty much instantly, on others I can't see jack due to my vision issues.
You'd think that not drawing something but having it still exist works fine (ive done it in a number of other games).
And if nothing else, theyre probably using an 8 bit alpha channel, so if you wanted it to be as close to 100% transparent as possible, you could make them 99.61% invisible.
Not that I play competitively, but I do think cloaking is a balance issue if some people can flat out see it. Though I never noticed any cloaking problems in previous versions, so how cloaked were aliens in like 3.0 b5? I mean fully cloaked even though there was no scale....
Asshatery noted btw <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> by those responsible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing is ever 100% cloaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder if this is the design or the limitations to the hl engine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Design. Simply not rendering something would prevent it from being seen at all, tweaked visual settings/hardware or not. I also believe buildings are 90% cloaked, they are simply very difficult to see due to not moving at all really. The reason most cloaked aliens are seen is the blur created over certain textures that's easily recognizable as a signature. On all the metal textures I see cloaked skulks pretty much instantly, on others I can't see jack due to my vision issues. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually this is more to do with male eyesight; human males have spatial detection over color detection.
How many times do you see a guy open the fridge, and have a little trouble finding what he's looking for? How many times do you see it happen to a woman?
So a guy can naturally pick out a moving cloaked object fairly easy, but a structure even at 90% is almost impossible to pick out because it's still all the time.
Not really <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There was a superhero mod back in won times. They had spiderman, batman superman many many others and the fantastic four. The invisible lady from fantastic four was invisible. She was not drawn on the screen, when having this ability in use.
Cloaking not only counters fun, it counters intelligent game design and implementation.