Interesting Revelation
SDJason
Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
<div class="IPBDescription">In regards to Chamber Start...</div> First off.. NS is a great game, and i love it to death, however somtehing ive noticed... just now actually....
Back in 1.04-2.0-3.0B5 It was always Defense Chambers, always defense first. It was a generally accepted rule and EVERYONE agreed that that was the only way aliens really stood a chance. Sure occasionally some idiot dropped SC first or MC and the aliens did good but most of the time it was DC DC DC or DIE/Kick/BAN
Now ive got one question??
The last patch (3.0 Final) was supposed to BUFF SENSORY CHAMBERS!! Many upgrades buffed sensory chambers, movements and defensive chambers were left virtually untouched, this was supposed to level the field and make all three chambers equally viable.....
Why then, is it generally accepted that MC is now the best starting chamber, DC is the worst, and SC despite its huge buff's, is in the middle......
MC wasnt altered at all, neither was DC, and yet with the new patch, MC is deemed the best, the buffed SC is right behind it, and the Behomoth DC is now in the rear as a OMG WTH DC BANT!!!!
I have various theories, but i find it quite interesting that we broke the DC reign of supremacy by altering SC, but in the end, MC was deemed (by most) to be the most powerful)
It should be noted that MC does not contain the extreme support that DC had, however in my experience MC is dropped more than SC and very rarely is a DC dropped.......
I believe this all stems from how people play:
My evaluation (in a nutshell) 2.0-3.0B5 was all about resnodes, hive's were obsolete, and while if the aliens never got one, they were screwed, marines almost NEVER did 2 hive lockdowns sucessfully, so aliens never had to rely on the MC and could just use the DC at will...
3.0Final buffed SC's by making running aliens cloaked as well, AND showing marines within range of an SC
This was a buff in disguise, however, as running cloaked aliens CAN be seen on MT... and people quickly forgot how to walk and stalk as a cloaked alien and MT is now considered by many a counter to SC (to some extent) simply because aliens no longer WALK while cloaked...... Therefore Cloaking is largely negated.... Also decreasing obs cost, and usage per scan has allowed commanders to Scan nearly twice as much as before, doubling the amount of time that scan is negated... Sensory is useless on hive assaults due to scan, and in nearly every alien stronghold attack Scan becomes useless, greatly nullifying its benefits in firefights and aliens trying to hold positions...
DC was not touched, and MC was not touched
However with the advent of the sensory chamber, now marines Try to quickly lock down hives....Two hive lockdowns are much more common than they used to be, this causes aliens to need to hold a hive..
MC's make it much easier to hold any hive simply due to MC rushing a locked down hive, or rushing to the aid of a hive or building hive in peril.... This chamber's strong point is just that, countering the new marine strategy of Rushing
Taken as a whole, innate regen looks good on paper, but is usless in combat.... In all honesty, it takes a skulk nearly 10 seconds to regenerate enough HP to withstand another L0 lmg shot.... so i cant remember the last time innate regan acutally helped me at all... the extra bullet due to regenning while damaged.... once again... not enough to be considered significant.....
I think people are finally realizing that DC really only helps larger life forms, and that smaller ones benefit from MC and SC more. It took innate regen (which i believe the devs know is useless and statistically it is) to fool the people into picking something other than DC under the pretense that they regenerate now on thier own to show them how well the other upgrades are.....
I also believe the dev's WANTED Sensory to be the most powerful, and even with decreased obs cost's, it still would be, except for one thing, ALIENS DONT KNOW HOW TO WALK CLOAKED like previous versions... Just because you can run and be 30 percent visible... doesent mean you should... ur on MT idiot...
Just an interesting observation, after years of DC gridlock, the devs buff SC, and somehow MC is the new reigning super chamber (my opinion from playing)
Discuss... cuz id like more theories as to why.....
~Jason
Back in 1.04-2.0-3.0B5 It was always Defense Chambers, always defense first. It was a generally accepted rule and EVERYONE agreed that that was the only way aliens really stood a chance. Sure occasionally some idiot dropped SC first or MC and the aliens did good but most of the time it was DC DC DC or DIE/Kick/BAN
Now ive got one question??
The last patch (3.0 Final) was supposed to BUFF SENSORY CHAMBERS!! Many upgrades buffed sensory chambers, movements and defensive chambers were left virtually untouched, this was supposed to level the field and make all three chambers equally viable.....
Why then, is it generally accepted that MC is now the best starting chamber, DC is the worst, and SC despite its huge buff's, is in the middle......
MC wasnt altered at all, neither was DC, and yet with the new patch, MC is deemed the best, the buffed SC is right behind it, and the Behomoth DC is now in the rear as a OMG WTH DC BANT!!!!
I have various theories, but i find it quite interesting that we broke the DC reign of supremacy by altering SC, but in the end, MC was deemed (by most) to be the most powerful)
It should be noted that MC does not contain the extreme support that DC had, however in my experience MC is dropped more than SC and very rarely is a DC dropped.......
I believe this all stems from how people play:
My evaluation (in a nutshell) 2.0-3.0B5 was all about resnodes, hive's were obsolete, and while if the aliens never got one, they were screwed, marines almost NEVER did 2 hive lockdowns sucessfully, so aliens never had to rely on the MC and could just use the DC at will...
3.0Final buffed SC's by making running aliens cloaked as well, AND showing marines within range of an SC
This was a buff in disguise, however, as running cloaked aliens CAN be seen on MT... and people quickly forgot how to walk and stalk as a cloaked alien and MT is now considered by many a counter to SC (to some extent) simply because aliens no longer WALK while cloaked...... Therefore Cloaking is largely negated.... Also decreasing obs cost, and usage per scan has allowed commanders to Scan nearly twice as much as before, doubling the amount of time that scan is negated... Sensory is useless on hive assaults due to scan, and in nearly every alien stronghold attack Scan becomes useless, greatly nullifying its benefits in firefights and aliens trying to hold positions...
DC was not touched, and MC was not touched
However with the advent of the sensory chamber, now marines Try to quickly lock down hives....Two hive lockdowns are much more common than they used to be, this causes aliens to need to hold a hive..
MC's make it much easier to hold any hive simply due to MC rushing a locked down hive, or rushing to the aid of a hive or building hive in peril.... This chamber's strong point is just that, countering the new marine strategy of Rushing
Taken as a whole, innate regen looks good on paper, but is usless in combat.... In all honesty, it takes a skulk nearly 10 seconds to regenerate enough HP to withstand another L0 lmg shot.... so i cant remember the last time innate regan acutally helped me at all... the extra bullet due to regenning while damaged.... once again... not enough to be considered significant.....
I think people are finally realizing that DC really only helps larger life forms, and that smaller ones benefit from MC and SC more. It took innate regen (which i believe the devs know is useless and statistically it is) to fool the people into picking something other than DC under the pretense that they regenerate now on thier own to show them how well the other upgrades are.....
I also believe the dev's WANTED Sensory to be the most powerful, and even with decreased obs cost's, it still would be, except for one thing, ALIENS DONT KNOW HOW TO WALK CLOAKED like previous versions... Just because you can run and be 30 percent visible... doesent mean you should... ur on MT idiot...
Just an interesting observation, after years of DC gridlock, the devs buff SC, and somehow MC is the new reigning super chamber (my opinion from playing)
Discuss... cuz id like more theories as to why.....
~Jason
Comments
but first. Init regen helps if your a scouting skulk, you para and only take one bullet, so instead of a run back to the hive, you regen for free, for fading, its helpfull for the simple fact of that if you take a couple of LMG bullets you regen them back easily.
MCs started to get use alot more clan play before the patch, like a month before, and thats when people actualy saw how to use them sucessfully, then it just happened to trickel down into pub play
Edit: As Gecko also said, there's definitely evidence of a trickle-down learned behavior.
It's also because the chamber provides the most useful upgrades for most lifeforms. A good early fade is key against good marines, and fades really need adrenaline more than anything. Same with lerks. Skulks will find their combat efficiency much improved by celerity or silence, and gorge can escape dying to early rambos with celerity.
It's also safe because it covers all your bases regardless what the marines are doing. If you're sort of winning but the marines are going JP, you can drop sensory second so your fades can swap them out of the air in 1 hit with focus. Or if they did well and they're getting HA, then you can drop defense second because your oni and fades will most likely need defense upgrades to be able to handle them.
DC first are no longer necessary because the efficiency of carapace has been reduced and the toughness of aliens has generally improved. Back in the 1.0x days, anything that didn't have carapace was a free kill to a LMG marine. Even a fade (they had 200/100 without cara?). Carapace increased the numbers of shots by a crazy amount, something like 2.5 times.
tbh, celerity or silence are infinitely more useful to an early game fade than adrenaline.
For example. you put an MC behind the hive. the Gorge now has infinit energy to heal.
The lerk now has a place to come back to and get a quick boost on energy, that way he can take celerity and still defend the hive realitivly easily.
The Fade can come back and get healing from the gorge realitivly quickly, while get his energy back, plus the fade can more quickly get to and from combat situtation and get hit less
MC also gives you the abiltity to teleport to built hives, and attacked hives. All the gorge has to do is spit the hive and the fade can teleport to and from thier main hive.
The only real counter to MCs is to kill the one in thier main hive, or attack it while the other hive is building. if two hives are being attacked, the MC moves to the built one before the unbuilt one.
Conserning One hive up, One hive building:
Silence rocks for All life forms cept maybe lerk/onos
Silence can get countered by MT
Adren rocks for all life forms cept onos (Rt chompin adren skulks are great)
Celerty rocks for all life forms
Lets look a DCs.
DCs provide heal stations. If you drop 3 DCs at the 2nd hive while its building, its pretty helpfull to fades, they can now defend the hive and get healed, specialy helpfull if a gorge is there.
The DCs wont help the lerk to much other than just its upgrades.
The fade will run out of energy before health, and wont be able to attack as often just because of a lack of energy.
Same for the lerk
Gorges can't do continious heal.
All lifeforms need to walk to a 2nd building hive.
Conserning One hive up, One hive building:
Regen Great for Lerk, Fades, and Onos
Cara is nice for Fade, Lerks, and Skulks
Redemption is silly, but only decent for onos
Only real counter is to kill the DCs.
Lets look a SCs now.
SCs detect all marines near it like SOF, while providing a cloacking radius
Conserning One hive up, One hive building:
Focus Rocks for fades. And nice nice for lerks
SOF rocks for Lerks, Gorges and Skulks
Cloaking rocks for Skulks, Gorges
SCs have alot of counters Such as Scan, and SCs radius effects become practicaly useless when thier is an Obs near by.
As you can see, MCs are perfect for 1st hive since they provide healing of Energy, making you basicly dish out more damage, with out losing to much of a healing effort if thiers a gorge. PLUS if the hive is getting sieged, they can heal it effectivly.
SCs are perfect for 2nd hive up, because Skulks are now Mini Focus fades. nuff siad.
DCs are perfect for 3rd hive since you trying to kill them out of marine start and with 5 hmgs pointed at you. Cara is realy realy nice.
really? I don't remember obscure in season 2
although, most of the time it's mc/sc/dc
most likely since the fade needs adren more than anything else now? -shrugs- <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
although, most of the time it's mc/sc/dc
most likely since the fade needs adren more than anything else now? -shrugs- <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ew, adreniline. Use celerity.
Then theres adren for lerks too if they want it.
but in most of the games ive seen, its mc/dc/sc, to compensate for the early arrivial of HMGs and heavies and such.
Also, I'd argue that besides the helpful area of SoF, sensory chambers haven't been changed either. Cloaking works differently, but when you're running it is visible enough that you should consider yourself 0% cloaked anyway, and it's difficult to tell when you're not "fully cloaked," since turning or strafing at all brings you over walking speed.
I'd advocated MC first in my clan since 2.0 came out (but was unsuccessful). In games with FF it's even more powerful since an alien at your second hive can essentially open up teleportation before it finishes building by biting it. This allows you to drop your hive safely when you have the resources to; you don't have to wait for it to be protected by your teammates. The last two sentences are, of course, common knowledge now. But this effect of MC has been around for over two years, since the very first version of NS. Why has it taken people so long to realize the value of MC? I can only conclude there are a bunch of thoughtless followers in this community. Imagine what good strats everyone is still missing.
When you increase the entire power of the team it makes a stronger force just in general.
People who ignore things like sound in NS are missing alot... I tend to start walking or even crawling when i even think I heard a skulk... that little tapping noise it makes when it runs really sets you off...
MC just has more uses to a skulk then any other chamber... It also helps gorgies to run away faster or build things in silence which doesnt bring trigger happy marines ready to knife the gorge even if it means theyll need 10 meds...
The buffing of the SC forced organized groups to try new strats, and by doing that they bumped into an area that was overlooked...
It varied from round to round and team to team. The chambers may need need a small tweak but this is the closest it has ever been to equal.
-PS NSArmslab.com's Veterans Classic has friendly fire and classic mode. And is most always movement chamber as the first pick.
Also, <!--QuoteBegin-SDJason+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJason)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Taken as a whole, innate regen looks good on paper, but is usless in combat.... In all honesty, it takes a skulk nearly 10 seconds to regenerate enough HP to withstand another L0 lmg shot....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes just 2 seconds. You don't need 10 more health to survive another bullet; you need only 1 (compare a skulk with 1 health to a skulk with 0).
MC first was not NEARLY as powerful as it is now. With upgrading the skulk every life being an incredibly foolish move, and upgrading the skulk was and still would be considered a waste of res, if it cost anything. DC first helped the larger lifeforms survive best, thus proving the most useful.
Now that upgrading is free, a skulk will always upgrade. It's not even a question of "is the trade off of res worth the upgrade?" It's "Hm I died which upgrade should I get this life"
It's no "strat of the month" or "OMG ADAPT NEWBAIS," it's taking advantage of a new system. Upgrading your skulks is viable now, so they can actually use the chamber to its advantage, making the most common unit of the alien team quite deadly.
It's called doing what you can to make your team most powerful. Before, having fades period was what made the team powerful. With the addition of making the skulk able to upgrade as it desires, you can now think for the whole team, and without totally crippleing the entire alien economy, keep upgrading every life.
MC's benefits are pretty widespread thus are usually perfect for a first chamber.
SC's cloaking doesnt help as much as it should as now marines with that extra armour..by the time a cloaker appears, bites him twice...the skulks dead. Same goes with Focus, the armour makes it alot worse. Thus making SC's only really good for placing in vents to pick up marines through walls. so MC outweighs SC.
DC is good yeah...but like i stated, a fade/lerk with MC is pointless, thus DC comes after MC.
This is all relative to how people play ofcourse, it doesnt mean its what everyone always does, but theres the basics on why people choose them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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^that statement is so wrong it hurts
to stay on topic...second hive is critical now and mc provides the best method of keeping it alive. imho sensory isn't chosen first alot of the time out of almost a common courtesy for the other team (we all know it's not fun to play against early game). i'm sure i'll catch hell for that last statement but i believe that's atleast part of the reason in clan play.
Only way to change this, is to implent certain things that give them a huge benefit if they change their habits...
And voila...
we had
a)sc buff
b) free upgrades
Since the patch buffed SCs so much there was:
"OMG Cloak0ring FTW!!1!!!" and "Omg Cloaking, scent,focus are much better than Cara/regen/redempt for skulks"
but after some lost games where the COmmander simply locked down 2 hives and researched Armor1 and MT there came doubt...was Sc really that good? Why did they still loose the games?
The good thing about this was that the minds of the general Pub Players opened up to "new stuff" So they listened to clanplayers who knew that MCs were "teh best!!11" and tried it.
The reason they used them first was an easy one... "Ok...so I am skulk....and i want upgrades. Cara is cool but...regen and redemption dont work very well for me...cloaking and focus are cool too...but sc first suck sicne we still loose with them all the time...wait a second...there is another chamber. Yesss!!! I know Silence and Celeritx from co_ and they rock! Lets try it"
and voila <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> build an MC.
Every skulk was happy. And every Lerk too...Hive got attacked and finally the aliens were able to quickly phase to it. Everything was fine.
Which leads me finally to the problem we have today...(yes i know, long post a lot of nonsense, etc)
<u>Public Players praise MCs now as they did DCs in the versions before...this means: If you want to try a good SC rush to surprise the marines...everyone will start screaming "nuuub" at you since "MCs are teh win!!"</u>
sad...but true...some things never "really" change
-PS NSArmslab.com's Veterans Classic has friendly fire and classic mode. And is most always movement chamber as the first pick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What an idiotic and narrow-minded generalisation.
As for MC 1st, it may work on Pubs or even Pubs with skilled players, but it won't last you long in the Competitive community. I don't even play compy, but I know that predictability will lose you games in the long run.
I'm always trying to drop DCs 1st these days and the team agrees on it 1 in 10 times. I don't think DCs have ended in a loss so far because it throws people's game and an agressive team can capitalise on early Marine deaths and wasted res because 'rines are under the illusion that they can spread out more when advancing Hive-side.
Obviously this isn't guaranteed, but as soon as people underestimate a strat, it becomes a very workable one.
1.0X the marines were all about slow progression, locking down one RT before moving the rest. Whether it was about TF, or just capping a res and moving on, the marine team stuck together (generally) and move as one huge group.
2.X the marines were no longer needed to group up, and the game sped up, making 1 vs. 1 battles fast enough before reinforcements can arrive. This encourages a lot more marine rambos, considering marines had major knockback and had equal chance against skulk, if not better.
3.X introduce free upgrades, making marines a bit weaker (hence the armor upgrade).
What am I trying to say here? In 1.0X, aliens held territory, while marines advanced. 2.X the marines spread out like mad and held territory. 3.X the map's pretty much equal between marines and aliens.
I consider the chambers to be defense (def), offense (sen), and the middle (mov) with some elements of both. In 1.0X the aliens were always on the defensive until the second hive came up, so the safest chamber was defense. 2.X took that away; you didn't need the second hive to guarentee a win. Furthermore, marines were spreading out much faster that defending, while viable, became harder to do. With the sensory buff (focus instead of that yellow-puff upgrade), aliens as an offensive ability + cloak from sensory. The spreading/offensive strategy was dealt with an offensive chamber. Of course, this fails due to the many hard counters marines had against sensory. Movements were viable at this time, but in order for it to take effect for any lifeform, they have to choose an upgrade instead of relying on its innate ability (def = healing, mov = adren, sen = cloaking). Since it cost res, nobody got it unless they were fades/lerks so defense was the way to go again.
Finally, when 3.X came out, free upgrades. Aliens no longer had to rely on the innate ability of the chamber. With defense unable for skulks to go for the offensive, and sensory easily countered, and movement in between, movs are the best way to go. From there, the second hive determines whether to play a defensive control the res game, or an offensive killing everything game.
Pubs adapt to what is the best chamber to statistically make them win. Defense was the best chamber before, and now it's movement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Taken as a whole, innate regen looks good on paper, but is usless in combat.... In all honesty, it takes a skulk nearly 10 seconds to regenerate enough HP to withstand another L0 lmg shot....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Btw, innate regeneration saves more times I can count. Many times I have finish a battle with under 10 hp. Without innate regen, I would be dead.
really? I don't remember obscure in season 2 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I'm sure he meant to say "win rounds" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Taken as a whole, innate regen looks good on paper, but is usless in combat.... In all honesty, it takes a skulk nearly 10 seconds to regenerate enough HP to withstand another L0 lmg shot....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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I actually may be incorrect about 10 seconds.... it might be more like 30...
Im not sure exactly
I do know a skulk regenerate's 1 (one) hp per tick of health or armor, assuming its once every 3 seconds like DC MC stuff....
Thats 30 seconds to regenerate one LMG bullet worth of damage (15 seconds if its regenerating armor)
(Note: Tick time may be wrong, I havent exactly checked)
Now... as to having less than 10 HP after a battle, yeah, the innate regen gave you a single extra bullet worth of damage in the battle, and that even doesent happen all of the time, seeing as you may have ended last battle with some weird value's of damage such that you had like 51hp/0 armor (theoretical) and then you go kill someone else and at the end of that battle you have 4 hp. Innate regen did nothing because you would have had 1 hp verses 4 without it...
I will give you that in a heads on battle with a full health skulk it now always takes on extra bullet to kill the skulk, due to innate regen, which is the equivalent of somethin like 9 percent more health (rough calculation) However from battle to battle innate regen rarely if ever will have the time needed to regenerate a full bullets worth of HP (varies depending on your current health)
Im not denying it helps, but not nearly as much as some describe it....
As to my reason for creating this post, my "revelation" or the thing im amazed about is:
For years, DEFENSE ruled, hard core, nothing compared... Then one day they buff SC to give it a chance, and suddenly DC's Suck, MC's rule, and the newly buffed SC is really good, but not as good as MC. Marine and Alien strat's now consiste of more hive lockdowns than previous versions and resnodes are not as important as they were(still are though)
I find that interesting how so much changed, even unexpected changes (MC power) due to a single buff in the Sensory Chamber
~Jason