People Miss The Point Of Ns

tsabraktsabrak Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8232Members
Without directing this to anyone in particular, I feel that many people have missed the point of NS. I've read countless posts about inbalance within the game, or strategies for playing the game, but what few (if any) have mentioned is the target players of NS. This game was never designed towards the public server play style. How could it be? It's designed around teamwork and team strategy. Getting a group of (essential) strangers on a public server to act as a cohesive unit is neigh impossible...and moreso, wasn't the intention of the game designers (IMHO). The aliens need to work as a team to an extent, but the marines are twice as team oriented. This being the case, it's twice as hard to actually get a group of marines working together, and so they lose more often on the pubs. When I see designated patrols of marines, commanders issuing orders that marines follow without hesitation, refined strike forces, defined builders, pre-planned crossfires, battle formations, flanking manuevers, and all of the other RL battle strategies incorporated into "wars" on a regular basis, then I think the game will be at the level it is intended. And if the marines are losing every battle, tweaking is necessary. As long as I continue to see marines who stand around yelling for equipment rather than acting as a useful tool for the long as I see teams of 7 aliens with 5 gorges on the long as I see arguments occurring during a match as to the order of upgrade long as I see the same, single marine die over and over at the waypoint that the commander set while his teammates play long as I continue to see these things, there is no room for complaint, and plenty of room for improvement.


  • MindmeldmeMindmeldme The Evil One Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1637Members
    Outstanding observation lad. Sadly that is the's played on public servers with...9 times out of ten complete strangers. I myself am getting known to a few people in certain servers but all that does is let people I already play with tell the new people about me first. Doesn't help much during the game when those new people have to follow orders. It's been stated before that the alien teams can usually go rambo in a game and win, and truth be told most of the team could, all that is need is 1-3, depending on server size, good people playing as a <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> and the rest can spend all the time they want dieing. The marines HAVE to have at least a decent commander, and then some sembalence of teamwork imparted to at least half of the team to have a chance, against a good alien team working together, you must have a Very Good commander and outstanding teamwork...or it's probably going to be over before it's begun.
  • Kung_FoolKung_Fool Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4092Members
    Truth to be told, exactly those are the reasons why I personally gave up playing on publics. Now I am sticking to 1 passworded server where I play every day, and I have to admit, it´s a much better feeling because everybody REALLY plays his role in the team on either side, and because the teams tend to be fair and balanced. We have both good marine and alien players, and it´s fun most of the time because of the long battles and the tactics we try to perform. Also, you don´t get called a *insert dirty word here* if you kill someone from behind or if you run for your live, only to lure the fade which pursues you to your waiting HA wearing buddys. It´s really great and I can only recommend it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> On publics however... <!--emo&???--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Well, but this is the problem with nearly every mod out there I guess. <!--emo&;)--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ZeroSaberSkoolZeroSaberSkool Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8546Members
    I totally agree. NS wasn't really made for public servers... I still see some teamwork, but NS truly was made for clans, and other organized matches.
  • LordBrainLordBrain Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8372Members
    I'm totally agree. That's why i come to public server with my entire team (when possible).

    Else, i try to make teamplay "in vivo". It's a kind of challenge ;p (Teamplay-o-matic man, it's me <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
  • guagleguagle Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7312Members
    Ok, so let's suppose you are right and NS is not intended to be played on public servers. So what about it? I don't have a clan and don't have time to join one/practise with ppl, so what should I do? Don't play NS at all?

    Now let's stop make suppositions and get back to reality: it is finding a good pub can be hard, that ppl there might not be the best gamers, etc... But let me tell you I have played some great games that lasted hours, with brilliant (if somewhat lucky) tactics and unexpected comebacks. In some games teamwork does exist even while you are playing with complete strangers.

    So long live the public games! I'll keep playing as much as i can, so long as i'm not bored, and that will be in a long long time.

    By the way, who are you to speak for the devs and say how this game should be played?? <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> It's everybody's game, that's all.
  • eyeeye Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7470Members
    with the still rather small, but growning swiftly, play base i tend to run into people i've played with before a lot. we've begun to learn eachother's stragities and trust one another. sure, being on a public server takes the team work down a notch or two, but if you regular a server, you can find VERY good team work.

    i've played games on public servers that have lasted nearly 4 hours of a constant struggle for both sides. of course the only way a game can last 4 hoursof intense game-play is if both teams are working as a team.
  • LordBrainLordBrain Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8372Members
    I've not say this at all.
    But it would be nice to see the first official clans fights.

    Actually, i really enjoy to play on public servers and we DEFINITLY need them.
    They are very indispensable to train in hard conditions (when everybody fails <!--emo&:p--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
  • Secret_NinjaSecret_Ninja Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9286Members
    I agree, but I'm not too crazy about the whole clan system in games anyway, so I stick with the pubs.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm totally agree. That's why i come to public server with my entire team (when possible).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That is sorta sad. It's not even fair when an entire team or clan hijacks a game and completely mops the floor with the opposing side. Organization is key in this game, and while your team has it I'm sure, it can get frustrating for the other people (I'm obviously speaking from experience here)

    But more power to you. I guess you gotta practice for official clan matches somewhere.
  • jacketsjackets Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9113Members
    If that was their intent, why put this in the manual:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Frontiersmen adhere to the Hirshelm Doctrine of Tactical Flexibility, which advocates that while a command structure is necessary off the battlefield (to avoid the endless debates of boardrooms and parliaments), it is better for squads to evolve a hierarchy organically – favoring those best suited or prepared for each situation over pre-selected officers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Quite appropriate for public servers.
  • LordBrainLordBrain Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8372Members
    edited November 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is sorta sad.  It's not even fair when an entire team or clan hijacks a game and completely mops the floor with the opposing side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's not fun if we play all in the same side, that's why we slip up in two team to train. We don't go to public servers to win, but to train. There's no fun to crush opponent without leaving them a chance <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Secret_NinjaSecret_Ninja Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9286Members
    Ahhh, okay. Then I rescind my statement towards you. On the other side of the same coin, awesome games usually develop when at least some of each team has an idea about teamwork.

    But in general, my original statement still stands.
  • PheralPheral Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8473Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Kung Fool+Nov 19 2002, 11:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kung Fool @ Nov 19 2002, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7Now I am sticking to 1 passworded server<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    omg let me in i cant take pubs any more...
  • No_Girl_RepresentativeNo_Girl_Representative Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9226Members
    I totally agree with this's about teamwork 100%........for exemple: I (in game: Hussard Noir or Golgota) am a mechanic for the marines...i wait for way points...or at unoccupied resource tower spots...i usually try to get a welder pretty quick....and i just stick around...move'm not an attack soldier. For aliens, gorge is the solution....outposts everywhere with defense towers to help out the other aliens who have to get back to the fighting real quick....and if they are already gorgs......then so be it, the little DoD kniffing skill i had comes and pops out .....and stealth is all it's about...
    But yeah...i think i'm only emphasizing here...or i'll shut up....but i think i proved my point...there's no way someone can just solo through the whole game...that's not really the point
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    /Imagines a place where the intelligent forum goers had their own server to play on, full of teamplayers and non-llamas. Then checks his pocket and notices it's empty. No server for Inexorable, the dream has died. <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • No_Girl_RepresentativeNo_Girl_Representative Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9226Members
    deep....but true....deep....
  • NecroBillNecroBill Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8435Members
    If you ask me this game has much better team work in the pubs than most mods do. I dont think I've played a game of CS where the team worked together. So i say take what ya got. <!--emo&???--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SpiritMasterSpiritMaster Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7580Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2002
    While I have to say in all honesty there there are some minor balancing issues to be sorted out in-game none of them are so large that they are the cuase of a team winning or loosing. When I play on my server I can usually tell within the first 5 minutes wether or not my team is going to win or loose simply by how well they play and how quickly they obey orders. I have found playing quite annoying at times because ''rambo'' type players are quick to blame either the commander or the server lag <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> . I run a server on a FreeBSD system and for reasons I havent been quite able to figure out it seems to generate lag quite quickly although, and yet even when the pings do get high the true team-players contiune to win. Why? becuase this is a team play game if your team has say 400ms pings... So do the other team <!--emo&:0--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ; They arent winning becuase the server is laggy they are winning becuase they are playing well (you wouldnt belive how many people blame lag on their team loosing).

    Private servers are definately a good way to limit games to good players, and i've toyed with this idea myself, unfortunately the minute you enable a password on the server it becomes remarkably harder to give that password to the good users <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . I run my server to provide an enviroment for NS fans to play, but it's hard to make calls on wether or not they are just new players who have yet to learn that NS <b>DOES</b> need Teamwork or they are just players who are out for the glory of killing as many of the enemy as possible. The only real way I can see to limit the game to real players is to start banning everyone who is obviously out for personal glory and not for playing the game as it was ment. This of course gives your server a bad name as people start going around saying the Admin of so-and-so server bans people for no reason <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> .

    For the sake of modesty and so this doesnt turn into a ''advertisement'' post i'll just say 'Ethereal' and those who play on my server will hopefully know who I am. But if the regulars on said server feel that they would like me to make it private for the use of dedicated NS players drop me a line in game or whichever, and i'll be happy to do so.

    OK I'll stop ranting now <!--emo&:D--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> but if anybody has any more good ways to ensure good gameplay I'm all for hearing them.
  • bitninebitnine Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9283Members
    Well, what I did for CS was find a local server on my college and now I play almost exclusively there. I know the people, we act as a team, and besides, we ping ungodly well. I recently found out that my college also now has a NS server, so I'm planning to give that a shot and see if they have the same amount of quaility regular retention rate.

    I do understand what you're saying. Most other games that include teamplay do basically that: they include teamplay. Sure, you'll be more effective if you use it, but it's somewhat of an option (even in games where such wasn't meant to be the case). NS goes further than that and damn near requires team play, especailly for the marine side. However, I think that there's more than that at work here.

    I think there's a definate noob factor that the marines have. Most new players start as marines. A lot of bad, inexperienced, or just lame players tend to stick to marines for some reason. When I go into a public server and join the marine team I'm very likely to see people sitting around the spawn waiting for "gl and jetpack plz" for 5-minute stretches and/or running off on their own, or generally not listening to their commander, making ridiculous requests, etc.

    If I join a public alien side, sure there are some new or lackluster players, but I've found in general that there's a higher percentage that seem to know what they're doing. You'll probably have enough to go gorge and build up competantly, and I've often seen skulks working in teams to ambush marines or attack their fortifications. At the very least I see it more often that I see marine teams showing equal diligence. Sure there are times that I see 5 gorges on my team, all building random things all over the place. But that happens far less often.

    (For the record I'm not trying to go out of my way to insult new players; many of them are simply that, new to the game and don't know what's going on. However, it does have a noticeable effect on gameplay.)

    If you hop around you can generally find a server with enough competant people to make it fun. I don't think its all as dire as this thread may paint things to be, but I have seen some god-awful servers. Hopefully at least some of this is due to the newness of the mod, hopefully many people simply haven't learned how to play in teams properly and will do so sometime over the next few months. Hey, I can always hope, can't I?
  • SnappleSSnappleS Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9073Members
    In the pinned post about creating a server just for training newbs...<u>IF</u> that works out, and people actually do go and train newbs, I think this problem will be solved...unless the newbs decide they don't want to look like what they are, or take the time to learn to play from experienced players, by going into the server.

    There's also something else that's been bothering me...There's really a best plan to follow as commander for each particular map. Yeah, you can do a few things different here and there each time you command the map...BUT, eventually, there will be a procedure that can be used every time because it's basically the best to follow. Once these are all figured out for each map, won't NS turn into nothing but a non-strategic first person shooter? <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • tsabraktsabrak Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8232Members
    There have been some comments and questions asked, so let me issue a few responses. First, it was asked "who am I to speak for the devs." I'm just a player with an opinion, and I believe I mentioned that in my original post. However, to further that line of thought, I am in exactly the same boat as anyone who is complaining about an inbalance in the game. Who are YOU to say that the devs have the balance skewed? Perhaps the devs WANT one side to be weaker than the other. Regardless, I base my statements on information presented to me via the game, the manuals, and the posts. It seems like teamwork is the missing link in the balance of NS. It does not seem to me that extra power on an HMG, or increased morph time, or any of many other tweaks is the missing link. Or if they ARE, it's too early to determine it because no one has followed through with the intent of the game. As to public servers vs. private servers, it's somewhat of a moot point. My theory was that the game was designed for team play...not that it was designed for private servers. While I feel that one sees more teamwork within a clan than on a pub server, this is just a stereotype, and not the golden rule. If you play on a server that has a regular group that has bonded well, works as a team, creates strategy, and has trust...kudos. I don't care if that server is public, private, or lan. Lastly, there was a quote from the manual saying that the players should adapt to what they are best at (summation). The quote was used to show suitability towards the game for public servers/free for all. I would argue that this tendancy towards what one is good at/enjoys would occur prior to the commander/alien leader giving the instructions. It's why we practice, and also why we aren't at the stage that we can determine inequity in the game. Not to mention pulling a single, out of context, quote from the manual really isn't a viable argument. It's just more a black and white view to a larger picture of a non-static situation. Anyhow, play well.
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