The issue with vet programs, and generally going to the compeditive comunity for balance advice, is that too many of you have forgotten where you came from. I've heard as many terrible ideas that would distroy the fun of pub play from clanners as I have seen terribly ideas that would distroy and semblance of balance in the game from newbies.
More of you need to think like firewater and reflect apon what changes you suggest would do to low skilled games if you want a respected position like the origial vet programs were attempting to form. The NS team isn't primarily looking to create the most balanced game possible at the highest compeditive level, that is only one priority out of many. They are primarily looking to appeal to as large a croud as possible. Your opinions are useless to them unless you can keep that in mind.
@Grahf: I'm not interested in public opinion on fronteersman or kharra stratigy, nor particularly scripting discussion, and definately not constant lan parties... I'm interested in skilled players, using teamwork, and playing the game at its highest levels against eachother. The organized play forums have NOTHING to do with that.
If you are as interested as you say you would take the effort to join a clan. Just play for one season at least and then maybe you will have more to offer than just random spam.
This post reminds me about when I was recruiting for NSlearn when I had the CAL requirement. There were several people who met the requirement, and several people who didn't.
The ones that didn't I was just scratching my head as to why they would apply to be a staff member when they had not met the requirements.
It seems that those people wanted to be recognized as valuable members of the community, hence the application. The difference that they weren't willing to put in the time or have the talent to become a member of the competitive community.
The same thing is happening here. A lot of non-competitive people post here to get away from the banter in I&S and general discussion, even though they do not have the qualifications to make statements about competitive balance.
They want the respect that the community/dev team views the competitive players have, but once again are not willing to put in the time, or they don't have the talent. They do not wish to be tossed in a bin with ALL of the pubbers, as some of them do not demonstrate even minimal knowledge of the game. The pubbers that post here are tossed in that bin because they are indeed pubbers. But they have an edge because they appear (atleast in their posts, in game is a different story) slightly better than the average forum poster.
To seperate this forum from those who look to achieve status that is undeserved is probably best.
I agree with Adj, there are people that pug or scrimmed once or twice and think they should have every right as a competitive player who has played all of the CAL seasons. This simply should not be.
I recommend creating a pub-allstar forum for those who claim to be so skilled and knowledgable but always seem to have excuses for not taking their game to the next level.
This sub-forum would allow those who are proficient pubbers to seperate from the rest of general discussion, and at the same time keep our forum pub-allstar free.
I don't see what is wrong with the cal forums for talking about issues relevent to cal level clanners. That is pretty much what you are trying to restrict this forum to anyways.
I don't go on the cal forums and bug you guys there, but these forums aren't only to do with cal or cal level gaming. Cal != all of compeditive NS.
Honestly this is a stupid forum anyway. The cal forums fulfill any talk you really need. Who gives a crap? Stop being so worked up in your e-status and play the game. If you want to talk about it afterwords than whatever, but setting up groups and status levels and cliques and rankings of who knows what and has what experiance just reeks of people that felt left out of the cool crowd in high school.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 20 2005, 08:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 20 2005, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see what is wrong with the cal forums for talking about issues relevent to cal level clanners. That is pretty much what you are trying to restrict this forum to anyways.
I don't go on the cal forums and bug you guys there, but these forums aren't only to do with cal or cal level gaming. Cal != all of compeditive NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The majority of CALeague is composed of players from the United States. A competitive forum/system hosted by unknownworlds.com acts as a gathering point for competitive players from around the world. Competative forums can also act as a loose link between the competitive players and the developers.
It is also worth noting that people seldom discuss the game itself on the CALeague forums. Issues debated on the CALeague forum remain specific to the league its self. CAL is a league not a game development team.
<!--QuoteBegin-surprise+Apr 20 2005, 09:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (surprise @ Apr 20 2005, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as i see it there 2 visions of the comptitive forum that just cant go along
whilst some want a place where all questions and matters about competitive ns can be asked, answered and discussed, others want an exclusive clanner-forum
now as i see it, the only way to solve the problem in a win-win situation would be to fulfill both wishes as they are both valid
perhaps a clanner-forum as subforum to competitive discussion?
in that way everybody would be pleased
::edit::
and plz guys, stay calm, no need to get personal <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> qft ^^
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 20 2005, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 20 2005, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with Adj, there are people that pug or scrimmed once or twice and think they should have every right as a competitive player who has played all of the CAL seasons. This simply should not be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is the way to do it then you cannot count previous seasons of CAL or any other league only the current season. Those players that have scrimmed a few times in the current version know more about the balance of the game than those who were once professional players playing on a previous version. Someone could be talking about balance of 3.0 in here and played the first 4 seasons of CAL and that person would not know anything about balance in 3.02.
There are a lot of "PuB" players that easily exceed a lot of the omega players' knowledge of the game and skill level.
I don’t like to post here much because I know that I don’t belong but I do enjoy reading a lot of the discussions as they are all interesting well thought out.
IMO, At the extreme, only competitive players should be able to post but allow all public players to read what is going on at the highest level of NS competition.
There is a difference between being a great player and an intelligent one.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited April 2005
Of course, you're also asking that a large proportion of the game's developers, playtesters and community managers should not post here. This seems entirely unreasonable to me. I'm dissapointed actually, this forum was doing very well until the thought police were called.
I'm still trying to figure out why you even want to moderate the forums. It's so much work for so little gain. There isn't much need to talk about competitive play. You either play it competitively or you dont. If you needed help in getting better that is why there is #nspickup and #nslearn/#nsguide. The way I see it. The only thing people seem to use this forum for is talking about threads or issues that were closed on the CAL forums.
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Apr 21 2005, 08:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Apr 21 2005, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 20 2005, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 20 2005, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with Adj, there are people that pug or scrimmed once or twice and think they should have every right as a competitive player who has played all of the CAL seasons. This simply should not be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is the way to do it then you cannot count previous seasons of CAL or any other league only the current season. Those players that have scrimmed a few times in the current version know more about the balance of the game than those who were once professional players playing on a previous version. Someone could be talking about balance of 3.0 in here and played the first 4 seasons of CAL and that person would not know anything about balance in 3.02.
There are a lot of "PuB" players that easily exceed a lot of the omega players' knowledge of the game and skill level.
I don’t like to post here much because I know that I don’t belong but I do enjoy reading a lot of the discussions as they are all interesting well thought out.
IMO, At the extreme, only competitive players should be able to post but allow all public players to read what is going on at the highest level of NS competition.
There is a difference between being a great player and an intelligent one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is why I suggested the Pub Allstar forum.
The "knowledgable" pubbers can seperate themselves from the unknowledgable ones.
That way you can have your own group, and leave ours alone.
If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As my signature says, its really easy to say something when you don't have to prove it.
You say you are more knowledgable than an Omega clan? Prove it. Join CAL, and show them in a match
You beat people in a scrim, WOW. Scrims are practice matches, not real ones, sorry.
If you have the time to scrim, you have the time to play CAL matches, as far as I am concerned there is no excuse not to play.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 21 2005, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 21 2005, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is why I suggested the Pub Allstar forum.
The "knowledgable" pubbers can seperate themselves from the unknowledgable ones. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> not to be argumentative...but how do you suggest that sub-forum is moderated? we would still have the problem of seperating "skilled players" from new ones...sounds like the chicken and the egg to me
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Apr 21 2005, 08:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Apr 21 2005, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 20 2005, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 20 2005, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with Adj, there are people that pug or scrimmed once or twice and think they should have every right as a competitive player who has played all of the CAL seasons. This simply should not be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is the way to do it then you cannot count previous seasons of CAL or any other league only the current season. Those players that have scrimmed a few times in the current version know more about the balance of the game than those who were once professional players playing on a previous version. Someone could be talking about balance of 3.0 in here and played the first 4 seasons of CAL and that person would not know anything about balance in 3.02.
There are a lot of "PuB" players that easily exceed a lot of the omega players' knowledge of the game and skill level.
I don’t like to post here much because I know that I don’t belong but I do enjoy reading a lot of the discussions as they are all interesting well thought out.
IMO, At the extreme, only competitive players should be able to post but allow all public players to read what is going on at the highest level of NS competition.
There is a difference between being a great player and an intelligent one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you read what I've posted twice now, I never say anyone should be barred from reading this forum, nor even barred from posting. I stated the rules should be similar to Discussion: If you are clueless, your post gets deleted. If you continue to act clueless, you get removed. I can dig through this forum and find several people who repeatedly post in topics they should not be posting in because they have 0 personal experience with what is being discussed. That is what I have a problem with. I have no qualms with anyone asking questions in threads, making their own threads, or just sitting back and reading. I have a problem with people discussing competitive ns when they really don't have a clue about it. I know **** about mapping, I know better than to go into the mapping forums and talk trash in those threads. Some people need to wake up and realize they shouldn't be posting in some of the threads here. I believe that was Grendel's beef and the reason he started this thread.
Maybe there should be a rule somewhere that says that if you feel to need to post in a thread you should at least take the time to read the entire thread all the way through..
<span style='color:orange'>Thank you for demonstrating a post that isnt neccesary, and most people agree here shouldnt be allowed. If any of the above suggestions ragarding "posting on topic or they get removed from forum" come to pass, Ill be sure to remember your posting history.</span>
I’m all for your suggestion Adj I fully understand it as this is the 3rd time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I have read it, Good stuff. I fully support it but others do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us.
Maybe I'll join CAL for a few matches, so I can get the badge then...
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Apr 21 2005, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Apr 21 2005, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an example of the type of person we would be alienating if the most <i>extream</i> suggestions are taken. As for an "in stone" set of posting rules for the competitive forum, Grendal and I are putting our heads together to figure out what will be best in the end. Hopefully we can make a compromise between the most extream measures and the way it is now that will make everyone content.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Apr 21 2005, 09:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Apr 21 2005, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, you're also asking that a large proportion of the game's developers, playtesters and community managers should not post here. This seems entirely unreasonable to me. I'm dissapointed actually, this forum was doing very well until the thought police were called. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? No one is controlling what you can think, but what you can say. I fail to see how it is restrictive when moderators start asking about how to filter what can be said.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Apr 21 2005, 09:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Apr 21 2005, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, you're also asking that a large proportion of the game's developers, playtesters and community managers should not post here. This seems entirely unreasonable to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 21 2005, 08:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 21 2005, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Apr 21 2005, 09:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Apr 21 2005, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, you're also asking that a large proportion of the game's developers, playtesters and community managers should not post here. This seems entirely unreasonable to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would be fantastic personally. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maby you should make your own compeditive forum, and all the cool cal kids can join up!
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Apr 21 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Apr 21 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I’m all for your suggestion Adj I fully understand it as this is the 3rd time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I have read it, Good stuff. I fully support it but others do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us.
Maybe I'll join CAL for a few matches, so I can get the badge then... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We aren't alike because I played "professionally" for 3 #1 teams, and 2 other delta teams.
I realized that in my life, competitive NS does not benefit me in anyway, as it will not help me get into grad school, help my fraternity, nor help my relationship with my girlfriend.
Competitive NS will hinder all of those things.
The difference between me and you is that you have 0 competitive basis for your claims, where I have experience.
<span style='color:red'>...and the rest is just a flame.</span>
No not especially, I have violated no rules by calling someone out on their alledged skill. As many puballstars say they have skill, but do not know what its like to play in competition.
But digz it is unfair for me to expect you to understand that. I apologize.
Feel free to single my posts out whilst ignoring those against me. Again just proving my point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 22 2005, 03:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 22 2005, 03:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Apr 21 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Apr 21 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I’m all for your suggestion Adj I fully understand it as this is the 3rd time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I have read it, Good stuff. I fully support it but others do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us.
Maybe I'll join CAL for a few matches, so I can get the badge then... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We aren't alike because I played "professionally" for 3 #1 teams, and 2 other delta teams.
I realized that in my life, competitive NS does not benefit me in anyway, as it will not help me get into grad school, help my fraternity, nor help my relationship with my girlfriend.
Competitive NS will hinder all of those things.
The difference between me and you is that you have 0 competitive basis for your claims, where I have experience.
Prove that you know what you are talking about and join a clan, that way everyone here doesn't know that you are full of ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun?
As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.
I can't for the life of me see why you guys need a forum limited souly to current and ex cal clanners. You guys have almost no issues in common any more, and if you absolutly need to have your say uninterupted, there are lots of more priviate venues for you to interact with the NS devs with then company forums. For the life of me I don't see why you feel the need to disclude everyone else. Your issues instantly become irrelelvent if you disclude all the developers who have even the slightest ability to do anything about them.
As I see it your number one problem is that none of the super annoying pubbers in the comunity understands any of your issues. Why not educate people rather then ostricizing them?
Nearly all of the current NS developers have never had any clan experiance, let alone delta level experiance. If you need to keep pubbers out of your forums because you can't convince them that you are right and they are wrong, what makes you think you can convince the NS deves? Having an exlusive forum is not going to magically create respect where there was none before. Most likely it just gets seen as a move that keeps the more annoying clanners out of everyone elses hair when they have an idea splurge.
the idea is this: The community itself moderates this forum. grendel would keep his powers, but only use them in the most dire of circumstances. (spammers etc.)
Basically, the community in this forum moderates itself. votes are used to decide whether a thread gets locked or not, whether a person is banned/muted*. the voting system would work a certain way. only people who spend time on this forum (if the person spends x number of hours browsing the forum per month, or makes x number of post's per month) he gets a voting status. he can use this vote to influence the moderation of the forum. this prevents people from using random people from the forum to help their cause's. would also prevent people just wandering in and getting a thread locked that needed just one more vote.
there is a risk of cliques forming that could influence opinions on a much broader scale. would this be a bad thing? definatly. entire clans could be active here and influence opinions. maybe thats the point of the exercise....maybe it isnt. it would be a risk. also, this forum would be a basis for all that come after it. self moderation, like this, has to my knowledge never been tried before. we would either be setting a trail, or going down in flames, literally. its a risk, a risk i would love to see this forum taking. by strange twist of fate, it would also solve your whole "separating nubs from naabs" problem. special moderator or vote started threads could be made where only voters can post.
by the way, credit for this idea goes to my good friend aelanna. she is head admin at <a href='http://www.tdzk.net' target='_blank'>TDZK</a>, a browser based space trading/combat game. the idea for this was put to me by her, but she has neither the time nor resources to make this idea happen on our own forums.
*voters would be able to "mute" people, much in the same way an admin can gag a person ingame. voters would have many other powers. the ability to lock threads (but not delete), starting "voter only" threads, amoungst other things. a special voter area where all the latest votes are being held could be set up. kind of like a "town square" where everyone can check the latest voter news.
or maybe im just getting ahead of myself. it could be a good idea. whether the voter's decisions could be enforced by mods or by some new automated system, that'd be for the voters to decide <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+Apr 22 2005, 05:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ Apr 22 2005, 05:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One proposal i like is self moderation.
the idea is this: The community itself moderates this forum. grendel would keep his powers, but only use them in the most dire of circumstances. (spammers etc.)
Basically, the community in this forum moderates itself. votes are used to decide whether a thread gets locked or not, whether a person is banned/muted*. the voting system would work a certain way. only people who spend time on this forum (if the person spends x number of hours browsing the forum per month, or makes x number of post's per month) he gets a voting status. he can use this vote to influence the moderation of the forum. this prevents people from using random people from the forum to help their cause's. would also prevent people just wandering in and getting a thread locked that needed just one more vote.
there is a risk of cliques forming that could influence opinions on a much broader scale. would this be a bad thing? definatly. entire clans could be active here and influence opinions. maybe thats the point of the exercise....maybe it isnt. it would be a risk. also, this forum would be a basis for all that come after it. self moderation, like this, has to my knowledge never been tried before. we would either be setting a trail, or going down in flames, literally. its a risk, a risk i would love to see this forum taking. by strange twist of fate, it would also solve your whole "separating nubs from naabs" problem. special moderator or vote started threads could be made where only voters can post.
by the way, credit for this idea goes to my good friend aelanna. she is head admin at <a href='http://www.tdzk.net' target='_blank'>TDZK</a>, a browser based space trading/combat game. the idea for this was put to me by her, but she has neither the time nor resources to make this idea happen on our own forums.
*voters would be able to "mute" people, much in the same way an admin can gag a person ingame. voters would have many other powers. the ability to lock threads (but not delete), starting "voter only" threads, amoungst other things. a special voter area where all the latest votes are being held could be set up. kind of like a "town square" where everyone can check the latest voter news.
or maybe im just getting ahead of myself. it could be a good idea. whether the voter's decisions could be enforced by mods or by some new automated system, that'd be for the voters to decide <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ew. Insanely complicated, requires alot of work out of everyone, invites others to openly discuss weather people should have thier posts deleted, and is FAR too exploitable by gangs/cliques. Keep it the way it is, and we will just PM grendal or digz if someone is posting stuff that we feel is wildly inapropriate.
[edit] I don't think it is even possible to impliment on Invision Power Board forums...
[edit] god forbid anyone should have to click a link!!!!222. seriously. alot of work out of everyone? hell no. its work from those that want to participate. if you want to see it work then you help out, post, and get your voting rights. if someone is trying to get a thread locked (note: individual posts cannot be deleted) you can vote both ways. you participate in discussions and are a good member of the community, then you will have your voting rights. simple enough.
and tjosan, its been displayed already that people cannot under any circumstances show even the slightest modicum of common sence on the interweb. i mean, christ, when last gather i done, they let me fade. WTH.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 22 2005, 04:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 22 2005, 04:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Once the Constie group gets brought in to test competitive players are way under represented in pts, so you don't have to worry about that happening. Besides, I really don't think the intentions of this forum were ever for it to be a competitve I&S (I read very few threads in here, and respond to less, but I really don't think players think of it like that).
Comments
More of you need to think like firewater and reflect apon what changes you suggest would do to low skilled games if you want a respected position like the origial vet programs were attempting to form. The NS team isn't primarily looking to create the most balanced game possible at the highest compeditive level, that is only one priority out of many. They are primarily looking to appeal to as large a croud as possible. Your opinions are useless to them unless you can keep that in mind.
@Grahf: I'm not interested in public opinion on fronteersman or kharra stratigy, nor particularly scripting discussion, and definately not constant lan parties... I'm interested in skilled players, using teamwork, and playing the game at its highest levels against eachother. The organized play forums have NOTHING to do with that.
The ones that didn't I was just scratching my head as to why they would apply to be a staff member when they had not met the requirements.
It seems that those people wanted to be recognized as valuable members of the community, hence the application. The difference that they weren't willing to put in the time or have the talent to become a member of the competitive community.
The same thing is happening here. A lot of non-competitive people post here to get away from the banter in I&S and general discussion, even though they do not have the qualifications to make statements about competitive balance.
They want the respect that the community/dev team views the competitive players have, but once again are not willing to put in the time, or they don't have the talent. They do not wish to be tossed in a bin with ALL of the pubbers, as some of them do not demonstrate even minimal knowledge of the game. The pubbers that post here are tossed in that bin because they are indeed pubbers. But they have an edge because they appear (atleast in their posts, in game is a different story) slightly better than the average forum poster.
To seperate this forum from those who look to achieve status that is undeserved is probably best.
I agree with Adj, there are people that pug or scrimmed once or twice and think they should have every right as a competitive player who has played all of the CAL seasons. This simply should not be.
I recommend creating a pub-allstar forum for those who claim to be so skilled and knowledgable but always seem to have excuses for not taking their game to the next level.
This sub-forum would allow those who are proficient pubbers to seperate from the rest of general discussion, and at the same time keep our forum pub-allstar free.
I don't go on the cal forums and bug you guys there, but these forums aren't only to do with cal or cal level gaming. Cal != all of compeditive NS.
I don't go on the cal forums and bug you guys there, but these forums aren't only to do with cal or cal level gaming. Cal != all of compeditive NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The majority of CALeague is composed of players from the United States. A competitive forum/system hosted by unknownworlds.com acts as a gathering point for competitive players from around the world. Competative forums can also act as a loose link between the competitive players and the developers.
It is also worth noting that people seldom discuss the game itself on the CALeague forums. Issues debated on the CALeague forum remain specific to the league its self. CAL is a league not a game development team.
whilst some want a place where all questions and matters about competitive ns can be asked, answered and discussed, others want an exclusive clanner-forum
now as i see it, the only way to solve the problem in a win-win situation would be to fulfill both wishes as they are both valid
perhaps a clanner-forum as subforum to competitive discussion?
in that way everybody would be pleased
::edit::
and plz guys, stay calm, no need to get personal <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
qft ^^
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is the way to do it then you cannot count previous seasons of CAL or any other league only the current season. Those players that have scrimmed a few times in the current version know more about the balance of the game than those who were once professional players playing on a previous version. Someone could be talking about balance of 3.0 in here and played the first 4 seasons of CAL and that person would not know anything about balance in 3.02.
There are a lot of "PuB" players that easily exceed a lot of the omega players' knowledge of the game and skill level.
I don’t like to post here much because I know that I don’t belong but I do enjoy reading a lot of the discussions as they are all interesting well thought out.
IMO, At the extreme, only competitive players should be able to post but allow all public players to read what is going on at the highest level of NS competition.
There is a difference between being a great player and an intelligent one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is the way to do it then you cannot count previous seasons of CAL or any other league only the current season. Those players that have scrimmed a few times in the current version know more about the balance of the game than those who were once professional players playing on a previous version. Someone could be talking about balance of 3.0 in here and played the first 4 seasons of CAL and that person would not know anything about balance in 3.02.
There are a lot of "PuB" players that easily exceed a lot of the omega players' knowledge of the game and skill level.
I don’t like to post here much because I know that I don’t belong but I do enjoy reading a lot of the discussions as they are all interesting well thought out.
IMO, At the extreme, only competitive players should be able to post but allow all public players to read what is going on at the highest level of NS competition.
There is a difference between being a great player and an intelligent one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I suggested the Pub Allstar forum.
The "knowledgable" pubbers can seperate themselves from the unknowledgable ones.
That way you can have your own group, and leave ours alone.
If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As my signature says, its really easy to say something when you don't have to prove it.
You say you are more knowledgable than an Omega clan? Prove it. Join CAL, and show them in a match
You beat people in a scrim, WOW. Scrims are practice matches, not real ones, sorry.
If you have the time to scrim, you have the time to play CAL matches, as far as I am concerned there is no excuse not to play.
Unless of course you are all talk, and no action.
The "knowledgable" pubbers can seperate themselves from the unknowledgable ones.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
not to be argumentative...but how do you suggest that sub-forum is moderated? we would still have the problem of seperating "skilled players" from new ones...sounds like the chicken and the egg to me
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is the way to do it then you cannot count previous seasons of CAL or any other league only the current season. Those players that have scrimmed a few times in the current version know more about the balance of the game than those who were once professional players playing on a previous version. Someone could be talking about balance of 3.0 in here and played the first 4 seasons of CAL and that person would not know anything about balance in 3.02.
There are a lot of "PuB" players that easily exceed a lot of the omega players' knowledge of the game and skill level.
I don’t like to post here much because I know that I don’t belong but I do enjoy reading a lot of the discussions as they are all interesting well thought out.
IMO, At the extreme, only competitive players should be able to post but allow all public players to read what is going on at the highest level of NS competition.
There is a difference between being a great player and an intelligent one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read what I've posted twice now, I never say anyone should be barred from reading this forum, nor even barred from posting. I stated the rules should be similar to Discussion: If you are clueless, your post gets deleted. If you continue to act clueless, you get removed. I can dig through this forum and find several people who repeatedly post in topics they should not be posting in because they have 0 personal experience with what is being discussed. That is what I have a problem with. I have no qualms with anyone asking questions in threads, making their own threads, or just sitting back and reading. I have a problem with people discussing competitive ns when they really don't have a clue about it. I know **** about mapping, I know better than to go into the mapping forums and talk trash in those threads. Some people need to wake up and realize they shouldn't be posting in some of the threads here. I believe that was Grendel's beef and the reason he started this thread.
Read. comprehend. post.
<span style='color:orange'>Thank you for demonstrating a post that isnt neccesary, and most people agree here shouldnt be allowed. If any of the above suggestions ragarding "posting on topic or they get removed from forum" come to pass, Ill be sure to remember your posting history.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us.
Maybe I'll join CAL for a few matches, so I can get the badge then...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an example of the type of person we would be alienating if the most <i>extream</i> suggestions are taken. As for an "in stone" set of posting rules for the competitive forum, Grendal and I are putting our heads together to figure out what will be best in the end. Hopefully we can make a compromise between the most extream measures and the way it is now that will make everyone content.
Huh? No one is controlling what you can think, but what you can say. I fail to see how it is restrictive when moderators start asking about how to filter what can be said.
Using your logic,
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35</a>
would be something under the "thought police" since it tells you what you cannot post.
I think that would be fantastic personally.
I think that would be fantastic personally. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maby you should make your own compeditive forum, and all the cool cal kids can join up!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us.
Maybe I'll join CAL for a few matches, so I can get the badge then... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We aren't alike because I played "professionally" for 3 #1 teams, and 2 other delta teams.
I realized that in my life, competitive NS does not benefit me in anyway, as it will not help me get into grad school, help my fraternity, nor help my relationship with my girlfriend.
Competitive NS will hinder all of those things.
The difference between me and you is that you have 0 competitive basis for your claims, where I have experience.
<span style='color:red'>...and the rest is just a flame.</span>
No not especially, I have violated no rules by calling someone out on their alledged skill. As many puballstars say they have skill, but do not know what its like to play in competition.
But digz it is unfair for me to expect you to understand that. I apologize.
Feel free to single my posts out whilst ignoring those against me. Again just proving my point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are so knowledgable and skilled at the game, why not play in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firewater, in a way we are similar, we both don’t see any advantage in playing ns professionally but we both like to play at a higher level and don’t want our lives revolving around schedule for a game. So balance at the higher level of play is still important to both of us.
Maybe I'll join CAL for a few matches, so I can get the badge then... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We aren't alike because I played "professionally" for 3 #1 teams, and 2 other delta teams.
I realized that in my life, competitive NS does not benefit me in anyway, as it will not help me get into grad school, help my fraternity, nor help my relationship with my girlfriend.
Competitive NS will hinder all of those things.
The difference between me and you is that you have 0 competitive basis for your claims, where I have experience.
Prove that you know what you are talking about and join a clan, that way everyone here doesn't know that you are full of ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun?
As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.
I can't for the life of me see why you guys need a forum limited souly to current and ex cal clanners. You guys have almost no issues in common any more, and if you absolutly need to have your say uninterupted, there are lots of more priviate venues for you to interact with the NS devs with then company forums. For the life of me I don't see why you feel the need to disclude everyone else. Your issues instantly become irrelelvent if you disclude all the developers who have even the slightest ability to do anything about them.
As I see it your number one problem is that none of the super annoying pubbers in the comunity understands any of your issues. Why not educate people rather then ostricizing them?
Nearly all of the current NS developers have never had any clan experiance, let alone delta level experiance. If you need to keep pubbers out of your forums because you can't convince them that you are right and they are wrong, what makes you think you can convince the NS deves? Having an exlusive forum is not going to magically create respect where there was none before. Most likely it just gets seen as a move that keeps the more annoying clanners out of everyone elses hair when they have an idea splurge.
the idea is this: The community itself moderates this forum. grendel would keep his powers, but only use them in the most dire of circumstances. (spammers etc.)
Basically, the community in this forum moderates itself. votes are used to decide whether a thread gets locked or not, whether a person is banned/muted*. the voting system would work a certain way. only people who spend time on this forum (if the person spends x number of hours browsing the forum per month, or makes x number of post's per month) he gets a voting status. he can use this vote to influence the moderation of the forum. this prevents people from using random people from the forum to help their cause's. would also prevent people just wandering in and getting a thread locked that needed just one more vote.
there is a risk of cliques forming that could influence opinions on a much broader scale. would this be a bad thing? definatly. entire clans could be active here and influence opinions. maybe thats the point of the exercise....maybe it isnt. it would be a risk. also, this forum would be a basis for all that come after it. self moderation, like this, has to my knowledge never been tried before. we would either be setting a trail, or going down in flames, literally. its a risk, a risk i would love to see this forum taking.
by strange twist of fate, it would also solve your whole "separating nubs from naabs" problem. special moderator or vote started threads could be made where only voters can post.
by the way, credit for this idea goes to my good friend aelanna. she is head admin at <a href='http://www.tdzk.net' target='_blank'>TDZK</a>, a browser based space trading/combat game. the idea for this was put to me by her, but she has neither the time nor resources to make this idea happen on our own forums.
*voters would be able to "mute" people, much in the same way an admin can gag a person ingame. voters would have many other powers. the ability to lock threads (but not delete), starting "voter only" threads, amoungst other things. a special voter area where all the latest votes are being held could be set up. kind of like a "town square" where everyone can check the latest voter news.
or maybe im just getting ahead of myself. it could be a good idea. whether the voter's decisions could be enforced by mods or by some new automated system, that'd be for the voters to decide <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
the idea is this: The community itself moderates this forum. grendel would keep his powers, but only use them in the most dire of circumstances. (spammers etc.)
Basically, the community in this forum moderates itself. votes are used to decide whether a thread gets locked or not, whether a person is banned/muted*. the voting system would work a certain way. only people who spend time on this forum (if the person spends x number of hours browsing the forum per month, or makes x number of post's per month) he gets a voting status. he can use this vote to influence the moderation of the forum. this prevents people from using random people from the forum to help their cause's. would also prevent people just wandering in and getting a thread locked that needed just one more vote.
there is a risk of cliques forming that could influence opinions on a much broader scale. would this be a bad thing? definatly. entire clans could be active here and influence opinions. maybe thats the point of the exercise....maybe it isnt. it would be a risk. also, this forum would be a basis for all that come after it. self moderation, like this, has to my knowledge never been tried before. we would either be setting a trail, or going down in flames, literally. its a risk, a risk i would love to see this forum taking.
by strange twist of fate, it would also solve your whole "separating nubs from naabs" problem. special moderator or vote started threads could be made where only voters can post.
by the way, credit for this idea goes to my good friend aelanna. she is head admin at <a href='http://www.tdzk.net' target='_blank'>TDZK</a>, a browser based space trading/combat game. the idea for this was put to me by her, but she has neither the time nor resources to make this idea happen on our own forums.
*voters would be able to "mute" people, much in the same way an admin can gag a person ingame. voters would have many other powers. the ability to lock threads (but not delete), starting "voter only" threads, amoungst other things. a special voter area where all the latest votes are being held could be set up. kind of like a "town square" where everyone can check the latest voter news.
or maybe im just getting ahead of myself. it could be a good idea. whether the voter's decisions could be enforced by mods or by some new automated system, that'd be for the voters to decide <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ew. Insanely complicated, requires alot of work out of everyone, invites others to openly discuss weather people should have thier posts deleted, and is FAR too exploitable by gangs/cliques. Keep it the way it is, and we will just PM grendal or digz if someone is posting stuff that we feel is wildly inapropriate.
[edit] I don't think it is even possible to impliment on Invision Power Board forums...
[edit] god forbid anyone should have to click a link!!!!222. seriously. alot of work out of everyone? hell no. its work from those that want to participate. if you want to see it work then you help out, post, and get your voting rights. if someone is trying to get a thread locked (note: individual posts cannot be deleted) you can vote both ways. you participate in discussions and are a good member of the community, then you will have your voting rights. simple enough.
and tjosan, its been displayed already that people cannot under any circumstances show even the slightest modicum of common sence on the interweb. i mean, christ, when last gather i done, they let me fade. WTH.
Once the Constie group gets brought in to test competitive players are way under represented in pts, so you don't have to worry about that happening. Besides, I really don't think the intentions of this forum were ever for it to be a competitve I&S (I read very few threads in here, and respond to less, but I really don't think players think of it like that).