What Does Everybody Think Of Combat Maps?

omlette · April 2005

I, for one, dislike them. They attract an undesirable player-base, weakening the community as a whole. Why do I say this? Simple - it attracts the CS crowd. While some may argue that this increases the popularity and support for NS, and this may be true, I do not feel it is a worthy tradeoff. Players seem to be more self-centered and score oriented, rather than focusing on working as a team and using tactics.

Sure, combat maps help to pass the time when a server has 3 people and everyone is waiting for more people to join, but they should <i>not</i> be as popular as they are. More and more servers seem to be giving up ns (classic) mode in favor of this watered down version of NS, which is unfortunate.

Besides the previously mentioned reason (and, sometimes, it can be fun to just jump around in the readyroom), I do not see why the NS team decided to include this mode, as it overall seems to lower the quality of the game and of the community.

Thankfully... classic mode, as always, is fantastic (with a good group of people!). <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Agree? Disagree?

Garet_Jax · April 2005

I'm not happy that about 70% of servers play combat maps; but it weeds out the people who don't know how to play classic NS. Having said that- we never had combat maps, and we managed to learn the game (due to lack of choice I guess. God I loved 1.00- trying to learn the ropes of the game with a 400ms ping).

Still, when I get fed up of telling people to mine the base with mines, or how to build structures, I might jump on to a combat map.

It's great for the ego- most of us who've played this game throughout it's life stick to classic, so I can usually own it up on a combat map <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

tanathos · April 2005

It is my opinion that the combat mode is a worthy addition to the Natural-Selection mod. Yes, it may be simplistic, and yes, it may attract player centered on score instead of teamwork and tactics. But that does not change the rule that combat maps were designed for : killing time, and they do a good job at that.

I have a feeling your complaint is more toward the player base they attracts. They aren't that much of a problem, because they don't usually stay in the same server to play Classic mode, and simply change to another combat one. That's what we want anyway, since we're "stuck" with the better players that have an understanding of the strategy.

Combat maps also have the advantage of attracting said players to classic map (if they play on a server that switches between both style of gameplay). Yes, they're actions in the beginning might cause the team they are on to lose, but they will also learn what they did that was wrong, and eventually become better players. Some might tire of classic and simply stick even more to combat, others will prefer classic and be a welcome addition to any team.

In summary, the combat maps attract another kind of crowd, and from said crowd a certain percentage is retained over the classic mode, something I think is desirable.

-edited grammar-

DaJMasta · April 2005

i like CO, its sometimes a break from classic maps, or a substitute with playing with just a few people. Just kindof a little diversion where i can get my fix.

I actually was recently teaching a friend the basics of NS, and theres no better place than CO maps. Then we played a classic map, and it took a looooooooooooooong time to explain even the basic parts of alien structures, needless to say it was still fun.

omlette · April 2005

tanathos, you bring up valid points, but part of what irks me is the fact that the majority of servers seem to be catering to combat maps. Will we one day see a NS where classic mode servers are no more? That's what I'm worried about.

Cj_the_Dj · April 2005

I like combat and i think its a great add-in to the NS project. Although i agree with the fact that players seem to be more self-centered, those players are not just CS players.

Although i prefer NS maps, it is annoying to play a 2 vs 2 classic. co is great for these situations.

lastly, it is not </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>seems to lower the quality of the game and of the community.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> play on an ns-only (or most-of-the-time) server.

tanathos · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (omlette @ Apr 21 2005, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> tanathos, you bring up valid points, but part of what irks me is the fact that the majority of servers seem to be catering to combat maps. Will we one day see a NS where classic mode servers are no more? That's what I'm worried about. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
More servers doesn't really mean that more people are playing them. I see a lot more NS_ servers full than CO_ ones.

-edit-
To answer you're question, I don't think Classic will ever be obsolete. That's the core of the game. As long as player like me and you will play this game, Classic servers will be around.

Don't forget that in the last version, classic wasn't as enjoyable to play compared to combat because of some problems with bugs and balance. Of course those aren't all fixed, but we're in a better position now than before.

Theslan · April 2005

Agreed, it attracts a different amount of crowd. Unfortunately, some of them will try classic, hate it, and go back to combat no matter what you try to tell them.

Mainly because combat is mindless timekilling... you really don't have to think to win. It is also easier, encounters are more frequent, and overall you got massive boost with aliens (multiple upgrades per chamber) which makes it more 'fun' (cara/redeem onos) than regular NS.

I got a friend playing this by starting him on combat. He tried classic NS and found it too hard, so he hardly plays classic. Instead, he plays combat, occasionally telling me how good his score is in a round. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

Overall, both are good, but they're really going two different directions. The only thing that's similar are the values used between the two (damage, weapons, etc).

the_x5 · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (omlette @ Apr 21 2005, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I, for one, dislike them.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I never liked them to begin with. I protested, was told to shut up, it went through anways. I warned that it would attract the CS player base, the reason I began to develop apathy for CS. (I like the game fine, great on LANs but the community as a whole is vicious and selfish)

I find it sad and a bit amusing that my predictions which were scorned in the past came to be true. To rub it in: "I told you so."

Also click the link in my signature and scroll to where I added some addendums to see my offical concurences with this thread. (also, that's where I have my primary objectives/goals clearly outlined and the I&S ideas I give full lobbying support for)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (continued from above)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They attract an undesirable player-base, weakening the community as a whole. Why do I say this? Simple - it attracts the CS crowd. While some may argue that this increases the popularity and support for NS, and this may be true, I do not feel it is a worthy tradeoff. Players seem to be more self-centered and score oriented, rather than focusing on working as a team and using tactics.

Sure, combat maps help to pass the time when a server has 3 people and everyone is waiting for more people to join, but they should <i>not</i> be as popular as they are. More and more servers seem to be giving up ns (classic) mode in favor of this watered down version of NS, which is unfortunate.

Besides the previously mentioned reason (and, sometimes, it can be fun to just jump around in the readyroom), I do not see why the NS team decided to include this mode, as it overall seems to lower the quality of the game and of the community.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Quick trivia question: name the reasons those who lobbied for CO cited. Anyone else remember? Maybe find one of the old threads?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thankfully... classic mode, as always, is fantastic (with a good group of people!). <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Aye, NS (I don't call it classic) has always been fun. A hybrid FPS/RTS, revolutionary different, <i>not </i>another Team DM.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Agree? Disagree?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Agree.

Tinker · April 2005

I play on genocide server, they do map voting, and I find that if theirs <8 people in the server it goes combat. If there's >=8 players it goes NS. I like that setup, prevents the 2v2 NS_ ....which is fun but not exactly balanced.

arctica · April 2005

I think combat as fine. To me, it's (as already stated) an excellent Time killer, and a mean to play NS without having to worry about screwing the team up if I happen to be bothered by something (namely little brother, babysitting ftw). I'm only able to play Classic when no one's home to distract me. Combat is good for a fix after school to relax, and then do homework. o_o!

Diablo_fx · April 2005

I dislike combat at all costs, i never play combat.. Ever

the_x5 · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo fx @ Apr 21 2005, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I dislike combat at all costs, i never play combat.. Ever  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You sound like me. Heh. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

To be just, I did give Combat an open, unbaised mind and tried it. I played it for three hours and while the maps were nice and the constant battle was nice it felt... hollow, empty, dull. And the community was much like it was when I decided to stop playing CS and use only TFC, (after which I hear from a college peer while eating lunch about NS, this cool SciFi game everyone was taking about. I tried it, loved it; and am now probably the biggest fan in the area, Dr. Fuzzy being the next closest to me I know of.)

kill4thrills · April 2005

i disliked combat at first too, but now i find it a refreshing change. the fast pace and instant action has a different appeal than the slow, methodical do or die feel of regular ns maps. i think that most people that play co exclusively are not active forum goers, so you'll likely find more negative comments in this thread than positive. in reality, the sad truth is that there are a LOT more co players than ns players, and without co, ns would not be as popular as it is now

lately, i've been playing a lot of the 50 level extra upgrade plugins that adds a lot of depth to co i believe. the power struggles of the 50 levels are quite fun:

light marines > skulks
fades, onos > light marines/heavies
teched up jps > all

Sky · April 2005

I'd always rather play a good game of classic than a good game of combat. However, sometimes I just don't feel like a half hour long classic game. When the twitch gamer in the back of my mind rears his head, I'm off to a combat server.

However, combat plugins annoy the crap outta me. Combat is surprisingly balanced, but the plugins just take the balance and crap all over it. Lvl5 and up cybernetic implant marines are impossible to kill as a fade (at least for me). It completely screws with my timing and aiming to have a marine move faster than my little bunnyhop at the end of my blink. I mean, you can't even tell if he's been webbed, he can run that fast. >_> And lvl20 onoses....oh god.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

Depot · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 21 2005, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'd always rather play a good game of classic than a good game of combat. However, sometimes I just don't feel like a half hour long classic game. When the twitch gamer in the back of my mind rears his head, I'm off to a combat server.

However, combat plugins annoy the crap outta me. Combat is surprisingly balanced, but the plugins just take the balance and crap all over it. Lvl5 and up cybernetic implant marines are impossible to kill as a fade (at least for me). It completely screws with my timing and aiming to have a marine move faster than my little bunnyhop at the end of my blink. I mean, you can't even tell if he's been webbed, he can run that fast. >_> And lvl20 onoses....oh god.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Ya had to go off on a tangent, didn't ya sky?

<u>Combat rocks, and a wise setup of the plugins not only doesn't affect balance, it enhances the game.</u> extralevels2, which I ported to AMX Mod X and am more familiar with than anyone except perhaps the author or White Panther, is so configureable it's totally in the server op's control which way he wants to balance it. Hate Cybernetics? Increase cost to 2 points? BloodLust overpowered? Decrease it's power. Onos with Thickened Skin owning everyone? Decrease onos hp for this or increase IT'S cost. You can also cap the number of levels for each upgrade (my server caps all at 5).

aeroripper · April 2005

I'll play co once in a blue moon but i usually i stick to NS. In fact i just got done with a 70 minute alien comback on linuxmonster :-P.

I'm sure once NS goes source it will probably double or triple its playerbase.

DuoGodOfDeath · April 2005

Havent played CO in about a month. Got tired of being Xeno'ed + Focus bite for 10 minutes like one guy said.

Swift_Idiot · April 2005

Combat is a nice diversion from NS. Also, Co maps are unique too. They are smaller, but they add geography that simply wouldn't have the chance to exist without the Co game mode. I like lots of maps. NS with CO = more maps.

Tevinhead · April 2005

But there are too many co only players. Argue all you want that combat is for when there's only 2 people. If more people join and you change the map. Half the people will leave for another combat server. I do think it has done more harm than good.

the_x5 · April 2005

Plus a good NS game is just so much rewarding to win, especially with a bunch of power shifts and comebacks. If you're really fighting well with your team and working together to win it is just such a elated feeling to see the hard work over an hour or two pay off and defeat a formidable enemy. Like beating a game on the hardest difficult and getting the alternate ending, but better.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>a wise setup of the plugins not only doesn't affect balance, it enhances the game. extralevels2, which I ported to AMX Mod X and am more familiar with than anyone except perhaps the author or White Panther, is so configureable it's totally in the server op's control which way he wants to balance it. Hate Cybernetics? Increase cost to 2 points? BloodLust overpowered? Decrease it's power. Onos with Thickened Skin owning everyone? Decrease onos hp for this or increase IT'S cost. You can also cap the number of levels for each upgrade (my server caps all at 5). </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
A great pro for CO actually. Do you guys remember Oz DM 3.0 for the orginal Half-Life multiplayer? Remember the "Ratz" maps? That was actually the first main HL multiplayer game I played all the time, TFC and CS were later, and Sven Coop and NS after that. THe great thing about it was that you could customize every detail, the damages and firerates of every weapon, velocities, runes, you name it. So if they are doing that in combat it will make it a fun, silly zone-ish game. So that's the first real pro I've heard for CO, but I won't let it replace NS. Never.

Sky · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Apr 21 2005, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 21 2005, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'd always rather play a good game of classic than a good game of combat. However, sometimes I just don't feel like a half hour long classic game. When the twitch gamer in the back of my mind rears his head, I'm off to a combat server.

However, combat plugins annoy the crap outta me. Combat is surprisingly balanced, but the plugins just take the balance and crap all over it. Lvl5 and up cybernetic implant marines are impossible to kill as a fade (at least for me). It completely screws with my timing and aiming to have a marine move faster than my little bunnyhop at the end of my blink. I mean, you can't even tell if he's been webbed, he can run that fast. >_> And lvl20 onoses....oh god.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Ya had to go off on a tangent, didn't ya sky?

<u>Combat rocks, and a wise setup of the plugins not only doesn't affect balance, it enhances the game.</u> extralevels2, which I ported to AMX Mod X and am more familiar with than anyone except perhaps the author or White Panther, is so configureable it's totally in the server op's control which way he wants to balance it. Hate Cybernetics? Increase cost to 2 points? BloodLust overpowered? Decrease it's power. Onos with Thickened Skin owning everyone? Decrease onos hp for this or increase IT'S cost. You can also cap the number of levels for each upgrade (my server caps all at 5).  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Yeah, except most servers with plugins are run by idiots who know nothing of balance, and leave everything at the most open settings. It takes work to rebalance the game after adding such drastic upgrades and changes, work most server ops just don't put in.

Maian · April 2005

Nowadays, I usually play CO.

NS classic just has a major flaw that I can't handle right now - long endgames. And I define endgame when a team gets 90% chance of victory, regardless of tech level. It usually happens because of lack of res nodes, and lack of res income = slow death. In some public servers, it's even worse when the enemy team is also incompetent because the game will end even slower.

Plaguebearer · April 2005

I just wish combat and ns had been made as seperate mods, with their own checks and balances.

the_x5 · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Plaguebearer @ Apr 21 2005, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I just wish combat and ns had been made as seperate mods, with their own checks and balances.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I've lobbied for this for a long time my man.

Seperate all CO and NS varibles. I'm still strongly for it. Seperate mods. Sure great. Give me the source I'll split the suckers in two myself if nobody will do it.

evidence · April 2005

I like combat it can provide a change of scene but I still would rather it gone. Since its ariveal I have only seen dedent players leave and players I wish would foad come. Hacking on the servers I play on has like tripled and the clan scene is suffering now more than ever.

This is not my opinion but alot of the old school players that dont play anymore have told me they feel that the ns dev team have moved away from what ns origonally was and are catering more to frag ****. Although this may not be the case I think for all the good co_ does to the community it damages it 10x more.

I also disagree with the co_ only servers I see poping up everywhere.

Swiftspear · April 2005

You guys sound like you need some cheese, and maby a few baggets!

Ya, that would be just about right.

Steel_Monkey · April 2005

I dislike CO, but it is good for breaks between scrims and times when you know you wont get to play for very long.

My main grudge is when people learn to use alien lifeforms in CO only servers and get every single upgrade. They expect that to be like playing on an NS map.

I also dislike the servers that have 15v15 with a massive amount of oni and hmgs, it gets rediculous.

CO is at its best when its basic 5v5/6v6 in a 10-15 minute time span.

the_x5 · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 21 2005, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You guys sound like you need some cheese, and maby a few baggets!  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You messed it up. No baggets. You say, "Would you like some cheese with that whine?" To which I reply, "Go away traitor!" *ker-slap*

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

jk jk

Swiftspear · April 2005

Ok, fine then, I'll be serious.

IMHO co is just alot of fun. I have little or no respect for co nubs who have never tryed NS gaming, but I have seen lots of players start off on co and work thier way up, and lots of players use co to practice skills that are too risky to try out in classic games (pretty much all of fading, offencive lerking, no stomp onosing). I still would MUCH rather play 3v3 co to 3v3 ns, and everyonce in a while I like to be able to just let loose and killwh**e for a while, so I'll join up a 50 levels combat server for a relaxing, no pressure, fragfest.

TBH, this whole combat hating thing just sickens me. It is elitist to all hell that just because you don't have fun in this game mode you belive that other people should not be able to.

I think in the long run the NS team wasn't really looking at another 3 years of prosperity coming out of this game, so if we are going to suck it up and attract some dedicated co nubs at the benifit of higher player numbers at the end of the day, so be it. A few players who never would have will raise up the ranks to good classic style play because of this, and I really don't think we are looseing any established classic players because co came around (they are leaving for other reasons).

If you don't like co, suck it up and stop pub hopping. Find a good classic server and reg there. Stop trying to ruin everyone elses fun with your pessimism.

excluding others doesn't make you cooler no matter who you are, and to me the co hating clique is just one more childish group that needs to learn to play with others properly, and stop throwing sand in thier hair.

Lofung · April 2005

combat should never have been exsisted in anyform in ns.

What Does Everybody Think Of Combat Maps?

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