if you play ns you are competitive...unless you are willing to be a gorge and only heal the whole time!
but seriously this should be a simple "lets be more careful in moderating but still let anyone post" topic not a "lets flame each other and discuss the meaning of competitive" topic.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Apr 18 2005, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Apr 18 2005, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Homicide, I believe the purpose of this forum is for more then the amusement of clanners. It should be open to any players interested to partake in competitive discussion; I believe this is an area for competitive specific topics to be expressed by any player, not just a clanner. It should be used to help bridge the gap of ignorance and arrogance between clanners and the average joe, and not act as a soap box for clanners. I want to help bridge, not hold up the soap box.
If the admins decide there should be a clanner only forum, besides the forums offered by CAL, then I would agree with you and fully support a seperate clanner only forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> digz: My post "flamed" you less than your post flamed clanners. The purpose of the post was not to "flame" your person but to disagree with the underlying idea your post contained; that clanners are stupid and incompetent. On top of that you posted it in the middle of clanner heaven. If you want to add flaming quotes from the rules into my posts go for it.
I fail to see how your original post about how clanners are incompetent is using this forum to bridge the gap between competitive players and non-competitive players.
I agree anyone should be able to post in this forum as long as the topic relates to competitive natural selection. If ANY posts are to be deleted it should be the posts that are derogatory against “clanners”(this is what my original post is referencing). This is after all what we are discussing in this specific topic, what kind of posts should be deleted.
If anything you should delete your original post about incompetent clanners and then delete my following posts about your post.
Since the NS clan scene is not so large, and everyone knows everyone else, just ignore people like me and swiftpear since oyu know we're not in any clans so we don't really have any idea about NS Classic Competetive play.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 18 2005, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 18 2005, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> digz: My post "flamed" you less than your post flamed clanners. The purpose of the post was not to "flame" your person but to disagree with the underlying idea your post contained; that clanners are stupid and incompetent. On top of that you posted it in the middle of clanner heaven. If you want to add flaming quotes from the rules into my posts go for it.
I fail to see how your original post about how clanners are incompetent is using this forum to bridge the gap between competitive players and non-competitive players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Youve failed to grasp my meaning. I wasnt refering to clanners being "stupid and incompetent", Im saying that not all <i>non-clanners</i> are incompetant. The impression I get from anyone who is a clanner is that everyone else... is just wrong. Im trying to disprove that feeling. Im sorry you misunderstood me.
You guys are talking past each other. You both agree that this forum should not be off limits to anyone. You slightly disagree on the definition of "Competitive." You guys agree with each other more than you disagree with each other.
Squeak,
The reason it seems like clanners think everybody who doesn't clan is wrong about everything, quite frankly is a result of non clanners being wrong about everything. When someone can roll you in NS, and then they disagree with you about something related to NS; it usually means, you are wrong and they are right.
This happened to me earlier today. Saltzbad disagreed with a lot of my thoughts about ns_shiva. Then we played his team on ns_shiva, and they rocked our minds out on both sides. Maybe Saltz was right about some stuff and i was wrong, maybe saltz knew what he was talking about.
TG could not beat Obs in ns. Ever. Even if All of obs became blind in one eye and lost their thumbs. So maybe when Gunner or Saltz disagree with someone from a place like TG, on a matter concerning NS, they are right. Iunno. It seems like when clanners think people are wrong, its mostly cause they are.
EDIT: Oh and to stay on topic, I agree with Squeak/Digz, that it would be a tragedy to keep people like TG and GP out of this forum. This thread is a stupid idea, and it should be locked, because there is a concensus.
if your going to argue about what is considered competitive whats the point of this section? when it was made im sure the initial idea was "clanners" as you put it. or some general idea on those lines for the people competing in league or matches. because if they were thinking "well when you play ns you compete, thats competitive so therefore everyone who plays ns is comepetative".... then this section wouldnt even exist... to stay on topic... i dont see why only "clanners" should be allowed to post but if some one does post offthewall posts which are quite aperant not to know what they are talking about then deleted. because it will just start a flame war and yea... so in conclusion i guess just keep it closely moderated imo. /end rant
I really wonder what those 'competitive' pubs could talk about? Dont they have their own forums? If they had something to talk about wouldn't it be in general discussion?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+Apr 19 2005, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Apr 19 2005, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really wonder what those 'competitive' pubs could talk about? Dont they have their own forums? If they had something to talk about wouldn't it be in general discussion? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Apr 19 2005, 12:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Apr 19 2005, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 18 2005, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 18 2005, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> digz: I fail to see how your original post about how clanners are incompetent is using this forum to bridge the gap between competitive players and non-competitive players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Youve failed to grasp my meaning. I wasnt refering to clanners being "stupid and incompetent", Im saying that not all <i>non-clanners</i> are incompetant. The impression I get from anyone who is a clanner is that everyone else... is just wrong. Im trying to disprove that feeling. Im sorry you misunderstood me. [/URL] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're not trying to say that they are wrong, we're just trying to say that they just don't know. If you are a pubber who has never played on a team, or even a pug, or possibly even rang for a scrim, then you just shouldn't be posting in threads about how you think NS is balanced for competitive play, etc.
Digz, are <i>you</i> a competitive player? Or have you ever been?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
I wanted this thread to gauge popular opinion, a goal which it is achieving. However a little of the clan vs pubber debate is creeping in here and that is neither desired nor relevant.
I will take on board any useful suggestions made here. I have started by pruning some of the dross from this thread.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Apr 18 2005, 05:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Apr 18 2005, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just make this forum like the discussions forum, where the moderators can implement a system that removes you from it if you break the rules.
And one of the rules should be:
- Make too many posts without experience to back yourself up, and be removed from the forum.
I think this would work best. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This would a nice thing to have, Marik?
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
I'm actually in the middle of a reply to a PM from someone who suggested something similar. I'd originally thought it would mean a crazy number of different member groups for all combinations of restrictions (restricted from Gen Competitive, restricted from Discussions, restricted from Discussions *and* Gen Competitive...) but it may be possible through some messing with permission masks instead.
It's something I'll look into when I get back tonight or tomorrow. <i>Long</i> day ahead of me today <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
what about people that play NOT competitive but have questions concerning competitive ns...
dont try to tell me this would be the wrong form, or ill shoot ya <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A good way to keep this forum filtered is to only allow access to this forum to people who have a reserve slot on the NSA veteran's server.
Almost all of the people with Res slots on that server are either currently competing, or have competed in the past. I don't see that many exceptions to the rule, and even if those exceptions were allowed to post, they wouldn't be as useless as some of the junk in here.
The members of our community has a competitive group and have scrimmed a few omega clans and have won many of the matches. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Matches in what league?
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 19 2005, 08:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 19 2005, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A good way to keep this forum filtered is to only allow access to this forum to people who have a reserve slot on the NSA veteran's server.
Almost all of the people with Res slots on that server are either currently competing, or have competed in the past. I don't see that many exceptions to the rule, and even if those exceptions were allowed to post, they wouldn't be as useless as some of the junk in here.
There is a suggestion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i dont think every euro/aus player can be bothered to get a slot there.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 19 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 19 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A good way to keep this forum filtered is to only allow access to this forum to people who have a reserve slot on the NSA veteran's server.
Almost all of the people with Res slots on that server are either currently competing, or have competed in the past. I don't see that many exceptions to the rule, and even if those exceptions were allowed to post, they wouldn't be as useless as some of the junk in here.
There is a suggestion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that would be a fantastic way to alienate alot of the competetive community, welldone
hm, heres my story: i have been in 2 clans so far, been leader/co leader, played as commander and fade
i currently have no time to clan because i go to university and my girlfriend takes time too
now because of that you dont want people like me to have access to that forum? i think i got my share to say <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
your point of view seems a bit... egocentric here...
and still NOBODY responded to my last post <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what about people that play NOT competitive but have questions concerning competitive ns... dont try to tell me this would be the wrong form, or ill shoot ya <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> quoted for truth <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Apr 19 2005, 02:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Apr 19 2005, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How many europeans or pacific players have res slot on NSA? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> /me raises hand.
I can think of at least 1 other person with one plus maybe 2 or 3 who should have res slots but haven't bothered as yet.
However FireWater your suggestion is a bit outrageous. Especially considering you don't play competitively as of late & if the NSA admins were being obscenely strict with their rules then you wouldn't have a res slot either.
This is a great idea Grendel but "enforcing" it (if thats the correct term) is the difficult part. Too often in this forum you see people who you know have absolutely no competitive scrim or match experience trying to correct or dispute posts by people who have been playing at the top level for years. The problem then becomes trying to figure out who do you listen to & who do you ignore.
The whole point of "General Competitive Discussion" as opposed to "General Discussion" is the very element of Competitive experience. Attempting to reason that public servers are as much a competition as the CAL-NS finals raises the question of why does this forum exist & why the people who believe this are taking the time to post in here. I guess there are differing levels of trolling.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2005
Well, being competitive does not require the player be experienced in the game or have any pervious commitment to any competitions. Also, there may be non-competitive players that are interested in the competitive scene. As long as the talk is centered around competitive games and gaming, anyone should be able to participate.
The posters should however keep in mind that a competitive 6v6 NS Classic tournament mode game is in very many ways very different from games on a public servers, regardless of the skill level involved.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 18 2005, 12:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 18 2005, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Question for the competitive players who frequent this section?
Should people, whose sigs do not display a clan affiliation, have their posts deleted? After all, this otherwise just starts becoming General Discussion.
Discuss and let me know.
P.S. Obviously, if we implement this system, you'll have to include your clan tag/nick in your sig to post here. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whilst you're at it, can you delete all posts from the mapping forum made by non mappers, or perhaps any threads in customisation by anyone who hasn't released anything?
As an outsider here (although i do lurk around this forum), do you have any idea how ridiculous this idea sounds? Too many people complain about the clan scene either dying or being too small, so you're willing to make a move to alienate more players? How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite?
Should people, whose sigs do not display a clan affiliation, have their posts deleted? After all, this otherwise just starts becoming General Discussion.
Discuss and let me know.
P.S. Obviously, if we implement this system, you'll have to include your clan tag/nick in your sig to post here. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whilst you're at it, can you delete all posts from the mapping forum made by non mappers, or perhaps any threads in customisation by anyone who hasn't released anything?
As an outsider here (although i do lurk around this forum), do you have any idea how ridiculous this idea sounds? Too many people complain about the clan scene either dying or being too small, so you're willing to make a move to alienate more players? How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> while its true that non-mappers and mappers can post in the mapping forum, and that the the contributors and non-contributors can post in the customization forum, there is no debate between the groups as there is between the public community in the clan community.
The non-contributors don't ban the contributors from their servers, and the non-contributors don't call the contributors elitist blah blah *insert whiney typical pubber comment towards competitive people* .
This is typical day to day activity for the public community and the competitive community.
It does make sense to seperate the competitive discussion from public discussion, simply so that the pubber/clanner debate does not go on.
A lot of non-competitive players have nothing to contribute to this forum. Some do.
The competitive players should have a place to call their own on this forums. I think its great that the dev team allows this forum, but they should keep it competitive only.
Also people would join or leave the competitive scene regardless whether or not there was a forum here for competitive players. So that point is irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Apr 19 2005, 11:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Apr 19 2005, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The posters should however keep in mind that a competitive 6v6 NS Classic tournament mode game is in very many ways very different from games on a public servers, regardless of the skill level involved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this is exactly what many people unexperienced in comp ns fail to grasp.
<!--QuoteBegin-Innocuous+Apr 19 2005, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Innocuous @ Apr 19 2005, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who cares is my question. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well u care enough to post here :p
Should people, whose sigs do not display a clan affiliation, have their posts deleted? After all, this otherwise just starts becoming General Discussion.
Discuss and let me know.
P.S. Obviously, if we implement this system, you'll have to include your clan tag/nick in your sig to post here. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whilst you're at it, can you delete all posts from the mapping forum made by non mappers, or perhaps any threads in customisation by anyone who hasn't released anything?
As an outsider here (although i do lurk around this forum), do you have any idea how ridiculous this idea sounds? Too many people complain about the clan scene either dying or being too small, so you're willing to make a move to alienate more players? How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This really doesn't make sense, because this forum has a much more ambiguious meaning behind it, "competetive"; what is competetive? Skilled player? Someone with an oppinion on competetive discussion?
Versus the mapper; someone who doesn't know anything about mapper <b>will not be able to post about mapping</b>. People only post if they think they have something to offer.
Example: I don't know jack about mapping. If someone asked for help with some brushwork on his map, what would I say? Flame him for not knowing what to do? It's all factual information! Same thing with cuztimization; if you don't know how to model, what can one offer? I lack all knowledge within these fields, so most people don't post there because they don't know what to write. There is no need to ban people from these forums, because there is no problem.
However... in competetive discussion, people can, will, and do post here, vote here, and cast oppinions because they geniunly believe that they know the best solution to a said problem. Problem is, it's all oppinionated. Nothing <b>truely</b> factual; the only thing which gives someone credibilty here is experience, and skill. This is what seperates the wheat from the chaff here.
Example: Click on the link in my sig to my little essay I wrote. Most competetive players who posted after me agreed with me; whereas non-competetive players were pretty split 50/50 on what I had to say. Strange coincidence? I think not. Competetive players think alike on many issues and hold strong oppinions on things, because they have learned such an understanding of the game through their proficency through it.
Competetive players are pretty much the only ones who become experts in this regard, because they actually spend the time and play in the proper, controlled experiment like enviroment of a competetive field. On top of this, they are pubbers as well. Trust me, all clanners pub a ton on the side, that's how you work on aim and movement skills on the side, and learn maps better. In scrims, the most importanting thing to learn is how to operate most efficently through your team. Clanners developer a much better sense of teamwork, and since NS is designed to go with the team with the most teamwork (more so than other games), it then follows that competetive players will be the experts at it with the most valuable feedback.
Just like in the discussion forums, everything is oppinion there... but in order to keep yourself from being removed, you need to stay calm, rational, and not post too many silly posts that are obviously incorrect to the masses. If someone were to post in the discussion forums: "OMG BUSH SI TEH NAZI. Discuss" he'd be removed from there. Why? Because it's common knowledge that sort of comparision lacks any discussion potential, serves no purpose, has no real backing, and because there are so many things wrong with it, is actually considered trolling. If one were to be truely impartial they would allow posts such as those, but they don't because everyone knows where the discussion will go, since it's so easy to counter-argue the point made on Bush, and is basically inflamatory. Even if the person really believes Bush is the same thing as a nazi, they still deserve a ban from the forum for voicing rediculous, unprovable, and highly oppinionated oppinions.
Apply this to this competetive forum now.
Some dude comes on here, a well known clanner posts, "OMG Focus fades sukkk" people would assume he is trolling. Everyone in competetive player know that focus fades dominate, and is the strongest creature/upgrade combo in the game. However, when someone comes on and SERIOUSLY belives that focus fades are horrible, because they are hard to use, most clanners will either tell him he's wrong, or roll their eyes and move on, because the numbers tell the truth, and a fade with focus is gonna get way more kills than without. Therefore, the person who says that focus fades suck, should be removed simply because they have no backing for what they say, and when competetive after competetive player gives a calm and through analysis of why what he says isn't true, and yet the other person will persist in what they say; that person ought to be removed for essentially being a troll and ignoring the other poster and adding nothing useful to the entire post.
Oppinions vs. Facts; oppinions are much harder to discern from one another as valid, but when someone consistantly posts crap without any sort of backing to somehow feel important or otherwise noticed; they really need to be removed in favor of keeping the forum streamlined and productive.
Any questions?
Oh yeah, almost forgot:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The clan scene does not exist on a forum. It is in game, in league, and in a clan. The forum is built for clanners/former clanners with tons of experience to post their throughts on stuff. This place isn't where one should socialize with clanners; in fact clanning isn't really for socializing. The love of the game should bring oneself to play competetively to maximize their NS experience.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Apr 19 2005, 03:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Apr 19 2005, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The clan scene does not exist on a forum. It is in game, in league, and in a clan. The forum is built for clanners/former clanners with tons of experience to post their throughts on stuff. This place isn't where one should socialize with clanners; in fact clanning isn't really for socializing. The love of the game should bring oneself to play competetively to maximize their NS experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Here in lies the problem. Im going to attempt to be as clear and to the point with what Im going to say.
Should this be a league driven player base only forum (those who are currently in a clan and participate in a league), or is the forum <i>more</i> then just the discussion for clanners only? Should it or shouldn't it encompass the entire "competitive" aspect of this game.
Comments
but seriously this should be a simple "lets be more careful in moderating but still let anyone post" topic not a "lets flame each other and discuss the meaning of competitive" topic.
But whatever, have fun!
If the admins decide there should be a clanner only forum, besides the forums offered by CAL, then I would agree with you and fully support a seperate clanner only forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
digz: My post "flamed" you less than your post flamed clanners. The purpose of the post was not to "flame" your person but to disagree with the underlying idea your post contained; that clanners are stupid and incompetent. On top of that you posted it in the middle of clanner heaven. If you want to add flaming quotes from the rules into my posts go for it.
I fail to see how your original post about how clanners are incompetent is using this forum to bridge the gap between competitive players and non-competitive players.
I agree anyone should be able to post in this forum as long as the topic relates to competitive natural selection. If ANY posts are to be deleted it should be the posts that are derogatory against “clanners”(this is what my original post is referencing). This is after all what we are discussing in this specific topic, what kind of posts should be deleted.
If anything you should delete your original post about incompetent clanners and then delete my following posts about your post.
Since the NS clan scene is not so large, and everyone knows everyone else, just ignore people like me and swiftpear since oyu know we're not in any clans so we don't really have any idea about NS Classic Competetive play.
I fail to see how your original post about how clanners are incompetent is using this forum to bridge the gap between competitive players and non-competitive players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Youve failed to grasp my meaning. I wasnt refering to clanners being "stupid and incompetent", Im saying that not all <i>non-clanners</i> are incompetant. The impression I get from anyone who is a clanner is that everyone else... is just wrong. Im trying to disprove that feeling. Im sorry you misunderstood me.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92082&view=findpost&p=1451588' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....dpost&p=1451588</a>
You guys are talking past each other. You both agree that this forum should not be off limits to anyone. You slightly disagree on the definition of "Competitive." You guys agree with each other more than you disagree with each other.
Squeak,
The reason it seems like clanners think everybody who doesn't clan is wrong about everything, quite frankly is a result of non clanners being wrong about everything.
When someone can roll you in NS, and then they disagree with you about something related to NS; it usually means, you are wrong and they are right.
This happened to me earlier today. Saltzbad disagreed with a lot of my thoughts about ns_shiva. Then we played his team on ns_shiva, and they rocked our minds out on both sides. Maybe Saltz was right about some stuff and i was wrong, maybe saltz knew what he was talking about.
TG could not beat Obs in ns. Ever. Even if All of obs became blind in one eye and lost their thumbs. So maybe when Gunner or Saltz disagree with someone from a place like TG, on a matter concerning NS, they are right. Iunno. It seems like when clanners think people are wrong, its mostly cause they are.
EDIT: Oh and to stay on topic, I agree with Squeak/Digz, that it would be a tragedy to keep people like TG and GP out of this forum. This thread is a stupid idea, and it should be locked, because there is a concensus.
/end rant
QFT.
Youve failed to grasp my meaning. I wasnt refering to clanners being "stupid and incompetent", Im saying that not all <i>non-clanners</i> are incompetant. The impression I get from anyone who is a clanner is that everyone else... is just wrong. Im trying to disprove that feeling. Im sorry you misunderstood me. [/URL] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not trying to say that they are wrong, we're just trying to say that they just don't know. If you are a pubber who has never played on a team, or even a pug, or possibly even rang for a scrim, then you just shouldn't be posting in threads about how you think NS is balanced for competitive play, etc.
Digz, are <i>you</i> a competitive player? Or have you ever been?
*edit* for typo
I will take on board any useful suggestions made here. I have started by pruning some of the dross from this thread.
And one of the rules should be:
- Make too many posts without experience to back yourself up, and be removed from the forum.
I think this would work best. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would a nice thing to have, Marik?
It's something I'll look into when I get back tonight or tomorrow. <i>Long</i> day ahead of me today <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
dont try to tell me this would be the wrong form, or ill shoot ya <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Almost all of the people with Res slots on that server are either currently competing, or have competed in the past. I don't see that many exceptions to the rule, and even if those exceptions were allowed to post, they wouldn't be as useless as some of the junk in here.
There is a suggestion.
The members of our community has a competitive group and have scrimmed a few omega clans and have won many of the matches. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matches in what league?
Almost all of the people with Res slots on that server are either currently competing, or have competed in the past. I don't see that many exceptions to the rule, and even if those exceptions were allowed to post, they wouldn't be as useless as some of the junk in here.
There is a suggestion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont think every euro/aus player can be bothered to get a slot there.
Almost all of the people with Res slots on that server are either currently competing, or have competed in the past. I don't see that many exceptions to the rule, and even if those exceptions were allowed to post, they wouldn't be as useless as some of the junk in here.
There is a suggestion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that would be a fantastic way to alienate alot of the competetive community, welldone
As for USA, mostly everyone in the competitive scene has a reserve slot on the NSA server.
Perhaps players who are signed up for the international league should in their resepective countries/regions should be allowed to sign up?
i have been in 2 clans so far, been leader/co leader, played as commander and fade
i currently have no time to clan because i go to university and my girlfriend takes time too
now because of that you dont want people like me to have access to that forum?
i think i got my share to say <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
your point of view seems a bit... egocentric here...
and still NOBODY responded to my last post
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
what about people that play NOT competitive but have questions concerning competitive ns...
dont try to tell me this would be the wrong form, or ill shoot ya
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoted for truth <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
/me raises hand.
I can think of at least 1 other person with one plus maybe 2 or 3 who should have res slots but haven't bothered as yet.
However FireWater your suggestion is a bit outrageous. Especially considering you don't play competitively as of late & if the NSA admins were being obscenely strict with their rules then you wouldn't have a res slot either.
This is a great idea Grendel but "enforcing" it (if thats the correct term) is the difficult part. Too often in this forum you see people who you know have absolutely no competitive scrim or match experience trying to correct or dispute posts by people who have been playing at the top level for years. The problem then becomes trying to figure out who do you listen to & who do you ignore.
The whole point of "General Competitive Discussion" as opposed to "General Discussion" is the very element of Competitive experience. Attempting to reason that public servers are as much a competition as the CAL-NS finals raises the question of why does this forum exist & why the people who believe this are taking the time to post in here. I guess there are differing levels of trolling.
The posters should however keep in mind that a competitive 6v6 NS Classic tournament mode game is in very many ways very different from games on a public servers, regardless of the skill level involved.
Should people, whose sigs do not display a clan affiliation, have their posts deleted? After all, this otherwise just starts becoming General Discussion.
Discuss and let me know.
P.S. Obviously, if we implement this system, you'll have to include your clan tag/nick in your sig to post here. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst you're at it, can you delete all posts from the mapping forum made by non mappers, or perhaps any threads in customisation by anyone who hasn't released anything?
As an outsider here (although i do lurk around this forum), do you have any idea how ridiculous this idea sounds? Too many people complain about the clan scene either dying or being too small, so you're willing to make a move to alienate more players? How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite?
Should people, whose sigs do not display a clan affiliation, have their posts deleted? After all, this otherwise just starts becoming General Discussion.
Discuss and let me know.
P.S. Obviously, if we implement this system, you'll have to include your clan tag/nick in your sig to post here. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst you're at it, can you delete all posts from the mapping forum made by non mappers, or perhaps any threads in customisation by anyone who hasn't released anything?
As an outsider here (although i do lurk around this forum), do you have any idea how ridiculous this idea sounds? Too many people complain about the clan scene either dying or being too small, so you're willing to make a move to alienate more players? How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
while its true that non-mappers and mappers can post in the mapping forum, and that the the contributors and non-contributors can post in the customization forum, there is no debate between the groups as there is between the public community in the clan community.
The non-contributors don't ban the contributors from their servers, and the non-contributors don't call the contributors elitist blah blah *insert whiney typical pubber comment towards competitive people* .
This is typical day to day activity for the public community and the competitive community.
It does make sense to seperate the competitive discussion from public discussion, simply so that the pubber/clanner debate does not go on.
A lot of non-competitive players have nothing to contribute to this forum. Some do.
The competitive players should have a place to call their own on this forums. I think its great that the dev team allows this forum, but they should keep it competitive only.
Also people would join or leave the competitive scene regardless whether or not there was a forum here for competitive players. So that point is irrelevant.
The posters should however keep in mind that a competitive 6v6 NS Classic tournament mode game is in very many ways very different from games on a public servers, regardless of the skill level involved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is exactly what many people unexperienced in comp ns fail to grasp.
well u care enough to post here :p
Should people, whose sigs do not display a clan affiliation, have their posts deleted? After all, this otherwise just starts becoming General Discussion.
Discuss and let me know.
P.S. Obviously, if we implement this system, you'll have to include your clan tag/nick in your sig to post here. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst you're at it, can you delete all posts from the mapping forum made by non mappers, or perhaps any threads in customisation by anyone who hasn't released anything?
As an outsider here (although i do lurk around this forum), do you have any idea how ridiculous this idea sounds? Too many people complain about the clan scene either dying or being too small, so you're willing to make a move to alienate more players? How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really doesn't make sense, because this forum has a much more ambiguious meaning behind it, "competetive"; what is competetive? Skilled player? Someone with an oppinion on competetive discussion?
Versus the mapper; someone who doesn't know anything about mapper <b>will not be able to post about mapping</b>. People only post if they think they have something to offer.
Example: I don't know jack about mapping. If someone asked for help with some brushwork on his map, what would I say? Flame him for not knowing what to do? It's all factual information! Same thing with cuztimization; if you don't know how to model, what can one offer? I lack all knowledge within these fields, so most people don't post there because they don't know what to write.
There is no need to ban people from these forums, because there is no problem.
However... in competetive discussion, people can, will, and do post here, vote here, and cast oppinions because they geniunly believe that they know the best solution to a said problem. Problem is, it's all oppinionated. Nothing <b>truely</b> factual; the only thing which gives someone credibilty here is experience, and skill. This is what seperates the wheat from the chaff here.
Example: Click on the link in my sig to my little essay I wrote. Most competetive players who posted after me agreed with me; whereas non-competetive players were pretty split 50/50 on what I had to say. Strange coincidence? I think not. Competetive players think alike on many issues and hold strong oppinions on things, because they have learned such an understanding of the game through their proficency through it.
Competetive players are pretty much the only ones who become experts in this regard, because they actually spend the time and play in the proper, controlled experiment like enviroment of a competetive field. On top of this, they are pubbers as well. Trust me, all clanners pub a ton on the side, that's how you work on aim and movement skills on the side, and learn maps better. In scrims, the most importanting thing to learn is how to operate most efficently through your team. Clanners developer a much better sense of teamwork, and since NS is designed to go with the team with the most teamwork (more so than other games), it then follows that competetive players will be the experts at it with the most valuable feedback.
Just like in the discussion forums, everything is oppinion there... but in order to keep yourself from being removed, you need to stay calm, rational, and not post too many silly posts that are obviously incorrect to the masses. If someone were to post in the discussion forums: "OMG BUSH SI TEH NAZI. Discuss" he'd be removed from there. Why? Because it's common knowledge that sort of comparision lacks any discussion potential, serves no purpose, has no real backing, and because there are so many things wrong with it, is actually considered trolling.
If one were to be truely impartial they would allow posts such as those, but they don't because everyone knows where the discussion will go, since it's so easy to counter-argue the point made on Bush, and is basically inflamatory. Even if the person really believes Bush is the same thing as a nazi, they still deserve a ban from the forum for voicing rediculous, unprovable, and highly oppinionated oppinions.
Apply this to this competetive forum now.
Some dude comes on here, a well known clanner posts, "OMG Focus fades sukkk" people would assume he is trolling. Everyone in competetive player know that focus fades dominate, and is the strongest creature/upgrade combo in the game. However, when someone comes on and SERIOUSLY belives that focus fades are horrible, because they are hard to use, most clanners will either tell him he's wrong, or roll their eyes and move on, because the numbers tell the truth, and a fade with focus is gonna get way more kills than without.
Therefore, the person who says that focus fades suck, should be removed simply because they have no backing for what they say, and when competetive after competetive player gives a calm and through analysis of why what he says isn't true, and yet the other person will persist in what they say; that person ought to be removed for essentially being a troll and ignoring the other poster and adding nothing useful to the entire post.
Oppinions vs. Facts; oppinions are much harder to discern from one another as valid, but when someone consistantly posts crap without any sort of backing to somehow feel important or otherwise noticed; they really need to be removed in favor of keeping the forum streamlined and productive.
Any questions?
Oh yeah, almost forgot:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How, exactly, does that help the "dwindling" or "weak" clan scene? Surely welcoming all players, regardless of clan affiliation or experience, to the competetive "scene" is what you'd want to achieve, not the opposite?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The clan scene does not exist on a forum. It is in game, in league, and in a clan. The forum is built for clanners/former clanners with tons of experience to post their throughts on stuff. This place isn't where one should socialize with clanners; in fact clanning isn't really for socializing. The love of the game should bring oneself to play competetively to maximize their NS experience.
Here in lies the problem. Im going to attempt to be as clear and to the point with what Im going to say.
Should this be a league driven player base only forum (those who are currently in a clan and participate in a league), or is the forum <i>more</i> then just the discussion for clanners only? Should it or shouldn't it encompass the entire "competitive" aspect of this game.
I am for the entire encompassment.