Ocs: Annoyance Value > Res Value
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Long post, important points bolded</div> People keep talking about how ocs aren't cost effective. Yes - when it comes to res. You can add numbers forever and every time find that the same ammount of marine res will own a wol.
You people are missing the point.
<b>Oc's aren't meant to kill marines. They're meant to distract, discourage, and slow them. </b>
If you don't wanna read all this (you probably don't!) then just look for bolded sections.
Let's examine what a marine or group of marines can do when faced with a set of ocs:
<b>Case 1: marines die.
Case 2: marines retreat.
Case 3: marines run past oc.
Case 4: marines [try to] take down oc.
Case 5: marines seige
</b>
Case 1 is excellent - duh. Rfk.
Case 2 is good because the area behind the oc wall will only be accessible through another, longer route. They'll either give up, or take a much longer, more awkward route.
A wol at both entrances to an area, and those marines will have one HELL of a time getting in - they'll have to resort to case 3 or 4.
Case 3 is the worst case scenario a lot of the time - pgs get set up, rts get torn down, gorges get killed. It's still pretty good though - most comms don't give out welders, so the marines will have low armor.
Heavies can pull this off very well - they just weld. A disciplined team can slip by (i.e. they don't shoot), but if they're disciplined, you're probably screwed anyway.
Case 4 is the one that everyone assumes will happen when they bash on wols.
Lmg marines need a LOT of ammo to take down a wol. Especially with gorge/dc support. That ammo costs either time at the armory or res from the comm.
Shotgunners will take hits from the oc. Comm has to drop medkits (res) to make up for it. And then they will be weakened.
Hmgs are weak against ocs and thus need a HUGE amount of ammo (not to mention reloading)
Even with a gl, that gl costs 15 res to drop, plus beaucoup time for the advanced armory to upgrade, plus plenty of either time or res to get the ammo needed to take down a sizeable wol.
<b>Marines attacking a wol are VERY vulnerable. </b> If they get attacked from behind by skulks, they're probably reloading or facing the ocs. Even if they do react, they don't have much space to jump around (make the wrong move and the ocs shoot em). And they probably have taken a few oc hits already and are weaker than usual.
Worst case scenario: Heavy train. That train is going to level your wol. Those ocs are still useful. <b>Marines attacking a wol will give warning of an attack. </b> The heavies might plough through, but you'll at least know that they're coming. Plus it will slow them down, buying you time to get ready (i.e. get the team in the hive), or to attack something else. The heavies will take ammo (i.e. res/armory humping time), welding, and medpacks to get through that wall.
Heavies are less vulnerable than light marines, but they're still vulnerable. An onos can stomp and devour them from behind, and fades can zip in and out creating confusion (each attack requires a shift of target, manuvering, welding). Heavies might break off and chase aliens, letting them be picked off. Confusion is always the demise of a heavy train.
Case 5 is actually a good bargain. It takes lots of time and res to set up a tf, upgrade it, and build seiges. <b>Marines who are building are very vulnerable. </b> If they build a turret farm, they're going to have that area secured for a while. But that takes a LOT of time and res to do. You should be using that to attack something or dig in somewhere else!
So in conclusion... a wall of lame is a good investment. Oc's should be well placed to 1) cover a large area and 2) cover each other's blind spots. Even one oc can make it hard to take an area. A gorge good at placing ocs can be one of the most annoying things out their, second only to the uber fades.
You people are missing the point.
<b>Oc's aren't meant to kill marines. They're meant to distract, discourage, and slow them. </b>
If you don't wanna read all this (you probably don't!) then just look for bolded sections.
Let's examine what a marine or group of marines can do when faced with a set of ocs:
<b>Case 1: marines die.
Case 2: marines retreat.
Case 3: marines run past oc.
Case 4: marines [try to] take down oc.
Case 5: marines seige
</b>
Case 1 is excellent - duh. Rfk.
Case 2 is good because the area behind the oc wall will only be accessible through another, longer route. They'll either give up, or take a much longer, more awkward route.
A wol at both entrances to an area, and those marines will have one HELL of a time getting in - they'll have to resort to case 3 or 4.
Case 3 is the worst case scenario a lot of the time - pgs get set up, rts get torn down, gorges get killed. It's still pretty good though - most comms don't give out welders, so the marines will have low armor.
Heavies can pull this off very well - they just weld. A disciplined team can slip by (i.e. they don't shoot), but if they're disciplined, you're probably screwed anyway.
Case 4 is the one that everyone assumes will happen when they bash on wols.
Lmg marines need a LOT of ammo to take down a wol. Especially with gorge/dc support. That ammo costs either time at the armory or res from the comm.
Shotgunners will take hits from the oc. Comm has to drop medkits (res) to make up for it. And then they will be weakened.
Hmgs are weak against ocs and thus need a HUGE amount of ammo (not to mention reloading)
Even with a gl, that gl costs 15 res to drop, plus beaucoup time for the advanced armory to upgrade, plus plenty of either time or res to get the ammo needed to take down a sizeable wol.
<b>Marines attacking a wol are VERY vulnerable. </b> If they get attacked from behind by skulks, they're probably reloading or facing the ocs. Even if they do react, they don't have much space to jump around (make the wrong move and the ocs shoot em). And they probably have taken a few oc hits already and are weaker than usual.
Worst case scenario: Heavy train. That train is going to level your wol. Those ocs are still useful. <b>Marines attacking a wol will give warning of an attack. </b> The heavies might plough through, but you'll at least know that they're coming. Plus it will slow them down, buying you time to get ready (i.e. get the team in the hive), or to attack something else. The heavies will take ammo (i.e. res/armory humping time), welding, and medpacks to get through that wall.
Heavies are less vulnerable than light marines, but they're still vulnerable. An onos can stomp and devour them from behind, and fades can zip in and out creating confusion (each attack requires a shift of target, manuvering, welding). Heavies might break off and chase aliens, letting them be picked off. Confusion is always the demise of a heavy train.
Case 5 is actually a good bargain. It takes lots of time and res to set up a tf, upgrade it, and build seiges. <b>Marines who are building are very vulnerable. </b> If they build a turret farm, they're going to have that area secured for a while. But that takes a LOT of time and res to do. You should be using that to attack something or dig in somewhere else!
So in conclusion... a wall of lame is a good investment. Oc's should be well placed to 1) cover a large area and 2) cover each other's blind spots. Even one oc can make it hard to take an area. A gorge good at placing ocs can be one of the most annoying things out their, second only to the uber fades.
Comments
The point is moot. If I drop a WoL and the marine comm spends more res on Meds, Shotties and GL just to take down my WoL I have won a small personal victory, also, one Gorge dropping a bunch of this stuff allows the others to save for fades, oni and hives.
Pointedly OCs are not Turret Farms, they are meant to distract and warn.
u lost. Since the GL can be used to pwn skulk later. imo, WoL are only useful for pwning the pubs who dunno what they are doing at all. So if you are dropping 3 oc in a row, and marines jump over it like doing hurdles, then whats the point? i guess u should drop rts or go fade instead. 1 oc will do the job. as you say, oc's aren't meant to kill marines.
I've been playing a bit more as marine and concluded: ocs are teh lame. They're cheap and tough to kill if you place them right. Aliens are much better at securing an area than marines. Ocs>turrets, skulks>marines at defending. Healspray>welders.
I don't think so. I have never seen that listed in any changelog. Also, back in 1.03, I tried using healspray to make things build (without actually pushing the 'use' key) because I didn't know what I was supposed to do. The structures didn't build any faster than if I just stared at them. So, all that does is waste adrenaline.
Fade > 4oc
Seems any way you cut the bread the OCs are going to end up on the bottom of the pack.
It takes a good 80 res to put up a wol that denys an area to the same exivalent as a fade diverting 100% of his attention there, and the WoL doesn't push forward into MS if it makes enough kills.
As far as fade vs. 4 OC's goes, there are plenty of people that can create more benefit from placing 4 OC's than from fading, because they will be useless as a fade (see the thread in General Discussion for all the info behind that topic).
As far as fade vs. 4 OC's goes, there are plenty of people that can create more benefit from placing 4 OC's than from fading, because they will be useless as a fade (see the thread in General Discussion for all the info behind that topic). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the player isn't up to specs enough acctually be a fade, they have 3 other compleatly viable options that don't involve wasting res. They can drop the next hive, lay upgrade chambers that will help your better players when they are fade, or **** for onos. Not to say that OCs are never worth it, just to say that properly laying OCs is an artform, and most of the players who have figured out the ins and outs of efficiant WoL placement have also figured out how to not be a complete waste of res as a fade. Not to say that thier aren't players out there who are great with OC placement and just plain terrible fades, but those are the exception, not the rule. As a stratigy, OCs are rarely worth the equivalent res elsewhere. Alien res is more valuable then marine res as it stands, the last thing you need is a res pit sitting somewhere on the map.
15 marine res can kill the largest wol, 50 alien res can be worth infinately more as lifeforms then it ever could as OCs.
Combat is HARDER than realistic. With all the shotguns and hmgs running around, co is much harder than a classic game featuring lmg marines (although in classic marines tend to have more armor, as in co they go for big guns first)
I don't think so. I have never seen that listed in any changelog. Also, back in 1.03, I tried using healspray to make things build (without actually pushing the 'use' key) because I didn't know what I was supposed to do. The structures didn't build any faster than if I just stared at them. So, all that does is waste adrenaline. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been proven, and I have tested it with my friends to prove it. You only really gain a second or so, but that could make all the difference. Go ahead and try it, as it does build somewhat faster. The odd part is that when it is done building, your structure will have 1 bar missing from it's health that can be healed. And it's not JUST healspray; it's healspray WITH the "use" key.
Combat is HARDER than realistic. With all the shotguns and hmgs running around, co is much harder than a classic game featuring lmg marines (although in classic marines tend to have more armor, as in co they go for big guns first) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Classic you don't get to go fade again as soon as you get soloed by a single shotty. Early CO fades quickly learn when they have spent too much time in a skirmish, and with that information they can transfer to classic, where they are more likely to meet more lmg marines that are even less scary then the shotgun. The fact remains though, church is absolutly right. Cara celer regen adren focus motibalize fades are much better then anything the aliens would normally get in classic. The marine equivalent, a2 w3 sg JPs is much less intimidating in compairison.
Also note that the GL becoming available indicates late game tech, and that means you should be depending on fades, onos and hive2 instead of OCs. But in the early game OCs can save the day.
e.g. Tanith chemical transport room before sat is welded. Just place 2 OCs in there. Get 1 or 2 skulks to camp there.
[a] Marines gun down OCs - Skulks move in when they are reloading.
[b] Marines run past OCs - Skulks get free kills on weakened marines
e.g. Veil dome. Place OCs below the steps, skulk camps in vent.
Same scenario.
Just find a place with differing elevation to minimise blindspot sniping.
OCs force marines into predictable positions. OCs weaken marines and waste their ammo. Skulks kill them where else normally it would be suicide.
Either place them so that they hit the rine from all diffrent directions when they walk through a door making it harder for them to take it down because they dont simply have to move along a line of ocs 1 by 1.
Or what I find works best is a leave a trail of OCs to where they are heading so they cant simply just run past them and if they try and take them down 1 by 1 as they come to them it slows them down even more then 1 wall.
You can also trick the rine into thinking theres only 1 oc and trying to run past it then seeing theres another its too late to run back they are dead unless they get meds asap.
this is before gl's and even then they have to go back to base or wait for somoen to arive with it.
Agreed. I find thats the best strat, it takes them a lot longer to go through one oc at a time down a long hallway, then just a pile of them at one point.
It gives you a much longer reaction time to stop the marines attacking, generally gets them hit more.
And also more importantly, it slaughters jetties.
OCs are only meant for SUPPORT, the same as any static defense in the game. OCs should never be doing an alien's job.
The only really good use for them is as a counter to jpers, as they provide an instant hitscan weapon no lifeform has, plus a more than sufficient toughness.
OCs are only meant for SUPPORT, the same as any static defense in the game. OCs should never be doing an alien's job.
The only really good use for them is as a counter to jpers, as they provide an instant hitscan weapon no lifeform has, plus a more than sufficient toughness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't say a fade is always better than 5 OCs. OCs are static and will do damage without your control, which is easier to do. Fades however need to be controlled to be effective, and the fact is, some people suck as fades. You forgot the element of player skill.
And yes, your aliens should ALWAYS be ont he lookout for marines. A lerk with SOF is always a godo choice. Skulks without leap is decent, with leap is awesome for scouting,a nd don;t forget parasite. Aliens have such an easy time scouting it's not even funny.
SmoodCroozN: if you suck as a fade, you fade anyway and try to learn. You don't go OC spam all your life and never get past the n00b stage.
The statement "I don't have any skill so I'll drop OCs" is sad.
In a large game, like 13 v 13 or something, then by all means, drop all the OCs you want (aliens start with way, WAY too much res in large games) but then the gaem isn't balanced around 13v13.
But as a marine when I'm trying to ninja around, or I don't have backup and don't wanna get pwned by a skulk just 1 well placed OC can make my life significantly tougher. Yes they go down quick, but in a long hall marines basically have to kill it, go around, or get meds to get past. All of these things are beneficial to aliens for just 10 res.
Some well placed OCs around a hive can stop a JP ninja which is more then worth the res in the long run as most times it also forces a seige. Which takes time as well.
and yes im a bad fade
i always do skulk gorge ^^
and i always drop oc if i have like 40 res,...
or i drop the hive
maybe a lot of you play in cal or maybe in a good team
but try to play in a pub
the point is,... oc save the 2nd hive
why?
because its a pub,.. you cant recall a fade to help you at hive
when the fade is busy killing and fragging.
your only hope is only the oc
and i put the oc 1 by 1 to the way the marine might go in.
and i put it in the choke point
you must know in every map there are some point that you like to control it.
the oc do the job great
its stand there, shot the marine and yes, you have to defend your oc
unless you think you have enuff oc you can leave it
with oc you can block one way so the alien can focus on the other way.
if you dont believe it, try and play in pub.
so you can feel the true power of the oc,.. in the right place
about gl,... its too easy to kill one marine with gl
the 1 by 1 oc placement take the time to warn your team.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->