Ive had these used against me lately. A catalyst shotgun rush is nothing to be feared. Marines with lmgs can hop around a lot easier and doge bites/slahes much easier.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A catalyst shotgun rush is nothing to be feared <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the shotgun is generally a one hit kill, I would argue the validity of your above statement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Apr 5 2005, 08:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Apr 5 2005, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A catalyst shotgun rush is nothing to be feared <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the shotgun is generally a one hit kill, I would argue the validity of your above statement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They are moving much faster, and firing much faster. How is this not a little bit more intimidating?
Yeah, shotgun rush is very much to be feared. Doing basic calculations, without even cat packs added in (With lvl3 weap). It takes just under 11 rounds of LMG fire to kill a hive. It takes exactly 4 rounds of shotgun fire to kill a hive.
Whats more realistic on an NS map? Having 4 men with shotguns in a hive? Or having 11 of them with LMGs?
Chances are if you have a 12 man team (inc Commander), they're not going to listen to you, and shoot OC's and DC's and everything else instead. If your ordering 4 guys to do the job, then it's easy.
Also, most games are 6v6-8v8. Which means you have an average of 2 other guys to distract aliens at other locations to make the assault easier.
With 4 men and shotguns, it takes a little over 10 seconds to take the hive out. With 4 men and LMGs, it takes about 13.5 seconds. BUT, thats without reload times.
When you get into a firefight inside a hive, you cant be screwing aroud with waiting on rines to reload. You dont have the time as it is. The shotguns take the hive out with 4 men using their 8 shots. If the hive heals a little, or a shot misses, the pistol can take that little bit with ease.
Back on the topic of Cat packs though.
Does anyone know the timing of how they work? Like, does it speed your shots up exactly 2x? Or is there a finer figure, cause I havnt found one yet. If it is, then with this shotgun example, we're taking the hive out in 5 seconds.
Phase in, shoot it up, phase out, recycle, rinse, repeat.
while its true that 5 sgs can take out a hive, catpacked ones will take out the hive in about 5 seconds. I belive regular it takes 8, but sometimes 8-10 seconds is enough for a decent alien team to respond, and maybe even save the hive. espicaly if they have movements.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of Dooom+Apr 6 2005, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of Dooom @ Apr 6 2005, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> while its true that 5 sgs can take out a hive, catpacked ones will take out the hive in about 5 seconds. I belive regular it takes 8, but sometimes 8-10 seconds is enough for a decent alien team to respond, and maybe even save the hive. espicaly if they have movements. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for reading my post. . .
Unless the aliens are just sitting in their base though next to an mc going "Man, are those rines gonna be surprised when we tele in next to them" They arent going to get in to save the hive.
Infact, chances are once the rines start shooting, the aliens wont be able to kill them soon enough anyway.
Did a *gasp* Hand grenade / Cat-pack A1W1 strat today. I was impressed by the results. RT-biting skulks got blown up or forced out of position, then riddled by LMGs.
The 1st time a fade appeared I ordered a 4-man fireteam together with 2 shotguns and welders. Got them to a tight area, attract the attention of the fade, and catted them the moment the fade appeared.
It died within 2 minutes of gestating, and in 3 seconds of catalyst combat.
Never got to see a 2nd hive at all, since catalyst shotgun marines were ripping down all the Kharaa RTs on sight. The hive was taken out by a mine push.
Im finding Handgrenades surprisingly usefull. Even more so if playing against Sens.
If you have MT, skulks tend to run in, see you, run out, then hide at the next corner. If you have hand nades though, when you see MT stop, you just lob one around for an easy kill. Or lob em in a big room to find the chamber.
I did a similar a1/w1/cat strat the other day and won, but the alien team sucked. I sat there and just unloaded clip after clip <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> into their <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo--> and I didnt get attacked once by any aliens. (Not to say some of the members werent hunting and waiting for them though.)
Catpacks have two different values: speed increase, and ROF increase. Most of you have talked about the second one. So let's begin with it. 25% of ROF increase in just one marine isn't a big improvement, I would say it's a little help. But a group of marines with catalysts and shotguns becomes very dangerous. Be it a fade, an onos, a hive or a group of five skulks, a group of catalysed marines will do a much better job. Obviously there is a gamble involved, but there is too with medpacks. I think cata wasn't worth at 4 res, but it was priced so high for what it can do if used correctly. Now at 3 res I think its worth. Groups of catalysed marines are great against structures, because they give aliens less time to react. Remember how many times that rt drops to 1 line before you die. Also, knife + catalyst removes the drawback of reload time, making it a full 10 seconds ROF increase for taking down rts. Then again, just 1 catalysed marine against a fade will make almost no difference, and a fade would run from a group anyway, but in even situations of combat they are effective. Also remember that welder ROF is also increased, so you can have your HA train or your damaged armory to weld faster. Now, for the speed factor. The speed increase has many uses. The obvios one is in combat: with the ability to deal more damage over time, you get the ability to dodge alien attacks easier. This can be a big plus when fighting a fade who only has some seconds to hit you before having to retreat. Also, the speed effect can be used to catch up with a retreating alien and deal the final blow. In reverse, it can be used to retreat your squad and avoid extra losses in lives and equipment. Or just simply to allow them to reload while maintaining distance with the aliens. It also can be used for speeding your squad movement from one point to another, say when a position is under attack and you've lost the pg, marines can make it there quickier to save some of the structures. It can be used to speed a lone marine whe he's tryng to get you a pg near a hive, and to help him to get trough those ocs easier.
Of course all this needs practise from the comms and is absolutely not easy to know the moment to drop a catpack. It also needs practise from soldiers to know when to take the catalyst and how to get the most out of its effects. Many times the marine should ask for the catalyst to make the best use of it.
I remember reading somewhere that cats also boost damage, is that true at all? If so, or if not, does anyone have some hard proof. Cause that always stuck out in my mind, but I've never bothered to test it out. (Would be off considering its not in the damage calculator. But then again its odd that it isnt there anyway).
Also, does Cat increase building speed. Not welding, but the physical building of them. I've had a few comms lately drop me a cat when building something in base, but it was the first time I ever heard about it before.
Also Steel, very nice post. You summed up the main points perfectly. Its also nice to have a specific % on the ROF increase.
The new manual made by Niteowl says catalysts increase damage, but I've tested it with mp_drawdamage and it seems they don't. Also no changelog mentions any damage increase, only speed and ROF. So I guess it's wrong. What does increase damage is Primal Scream (30%), along with ROF (30%) and energy recharge rate (60%). And no, catpacks don't increase building speed.
Comments
A catalyst shotgun rush is nothing to be feared
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the shotgun is generally a one hit kill, I would argue the validity of your above statement.
A catalyst shotgun rush is nothing to be feared
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the shotgun is generally a one hit kill, I would argue the validity of your above statement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are moving much faster, and firing much faster. How is this not a little bit more intimidating?
Doing basic calculations, without even cat packs added in (With lvl3 weap).
It takes just under 11 rounds of LMG fire to kill a hive.
It takes exactly 4 rounds of shotgun fire to kill a hive.
Whats more realistic on an NS map?
Having 4 men with shotguns in a hive? Or having 11 of them with LMGs?
Chances are if you have a 12 man team (inc Commander), they're not going to listen to you, and shoot OC's and DC's and everything else instead.
If your ordering 4 guys to do the job, then it's easy.
Also, most games are 6v6-8v8. Which means you have an average of 2 other guys to distract aliens at other locations to make the assault easier.
With 4 men and shotguns, it takes a little over 10 seconds to take the hive out.
With 4 men and LMGs, it takes about 13.5 seconds. BUT, thats without reload times.
When you get into a firefight inside a hive, you cant be screwing aroud with waiting on rines to reload. You dont have the time as it is.
The shotguns take the hive out with 4 men using their 8 shots. If the hive heals a little, or a shot misses, the pistol can take that little bit with ease.
Back on the topic of Cat packs though.
Does anyone know the timing of how they work? Like, does it speed your shots up exactly 2x? Or is there a finer figure, cause I havnt found one yet.
If it is, then with this shotgun example, we're taking the hive out in 5 seconds.
Phase in, shoot it up, phase out, recycle, rinse, repeat.
Thanks for reading my post. . .
Unless the aliens are just sitting in their base though next to an mc going
"Man, are those rines gonna be surprised when we tele in next to them"
They arent going to get in to save the hive.
Infact, chances are once the rines start shooting, the aliens wont be able to kill them soon enough anyway.
The 1st time a fade appeared I ordered a 4-man fireteam together with 2 shotguns and welders. Got them to a tight area, attract the attention of the fade, and catted them the moment the fade appeared.
It died within 2 minutes of gestating, and in 3 seconds of catalyst combat.
Never got to see a 2nd hive at all, since catalyst shotgun marines were ripping down all the Kharaa RTs on sight. The hive was taken out by a mine push.
Even more so if playing against Sens.
If you have MT, skulks tend to run in, see you, run out, then hide at the next corner. If you have hand nades though, when you see MT stop, you just lob one around for an easy kill. Or lob em in a big room to find the chamber.
I did a similar a1/w1/cat strat the other day and won, but the alien team sucked. I sat there and just unloaded clip after clip <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> into their <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo--> and I didnt get attacked once by any aliens. (Not to say some of the members werent hunting and waiting for them though.)
So let's begin with it.
25% of ROF increase in just one marine isn't a big improvement, I would say it's a little help. But a group of marines with catalysts and shotguns becomes very dangerous. Be it a fade, an onos, a hive or a group of five skulks, a group of catalysed marines will do a much better job. Obviously there is a gamble involved, but there is too with medpacks.
I think cata wasn't worth at 4 res, but it was priced so high for what it can do if used correctly. Now at 3 res I think its worth.
Groups of catalysed marines are great against structures, because they give aliens less time to react. Remember how many times that rt drops to 1 line before you die. Also, knife + catalyst removes the drawback of reload time, making it a full 10 seconds ROF increase for taking down rts.
Then again, just 1 catalysed marine against a fade will make almost no difference, and a fade would run from a group anyway, but in even situations of combat they are effective.
Also remember that welder ROF is also increased, so you can have your HA train or your damaged armory to weld faster.
Now, for the speed factor. The speed increase has many uses. The obvios one is in combat: with the ability to deal more damage over time, you get the ability to dodge alien attacks easier. This can be a big plus when fighting a fade who only has some seconds to hit you before having to retreat.
Also, the speed effect can be used to catch up with a retreating alien and deal the final blow.
In reverse, it can be used to retreat your squad and avoid extra losses in lives and equipment. Or just simply to allow them to reload while maintaining distance with the aliens.
It also can be used for speeding your squad movement from one point to another, say when a position is under attack and you've lost the pg, marines can make it there quickier to save some of the structures.
It can be used to speed a lone marine whe he's tryng to get you a pg near a hive, and to help him to get trough those ocs easier.
Of course all this needs practise from the comms and is absolutely not easy to know the moment to drop a catpack. It also needs practise from soldiers to know when to take the catalyst and how to get the most out of its effects.
Many times the marine should ask for the catalyst to make the best use of it.
(Would be off considering its not in the damage calculator. But then again its odd that it isnt there anyway).
Also, does Cat increase building speed. Not welding, but the physical building of them. I've had a few comms lately drop me a cat when building something in base, but it was the first time I ever heard about it before.
Also Steel, very nice post. You summed up the main points perfectly. Its also nice to have a specific % on the ROF increase.
What does increase damage is Primal Scream (30%), along with ROF (30%) and energy recharge rate (60%).
And no, catpacks don't increase building speed.