Minimum Required Proof

Grendel · April 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">Keep it grown up</div> I'm not taking sides in this, or suggesting one viewpoint or the other is valid, just trying to establish the problems here that are causing the conflict.

Given all the doubt and speculation over recent events, I'm wondering quite what players here would consider the minimum burden of proof necessary to ban someone from CAL.

Any unencrypted digital data is subject to tampering with, so all submitted demos, by definition, are useless unless the source is trusted. Anyone can generate as much digital evidence as they like against someone, given the time and motivation.

The last thread seemed to establish that you trust neither the admins, nor the system. Presuming a completely neutral admin (i.e. not one of CAL scene **** pimped in the last thread), what would be sufficient to satisfy you guys that someone was a cheat?

The answer appears to be nothing short of blatant aimbotting in a CAL game, which means that most people who are smart enough, should never get caught using some form of hack.

So realistically, you guys either need to trust that admins are carrying out investigations due to external information or just find a league that isn't so aggressive towards cheats. Most hackers are caught out because they boast about what they've got away with or because they are careless when smurfing, not because they are blatant about it in matches. Consequently, most admins will have to be surreptitious about garnering information.

Several people have attacked Hsu in all of this. Now I can't speak for him or CAL, but I think it's fair to say that not only does he have feelings too (so back off), but it would exceptionally difficult to find anyone to admin CAL-NS who wasn't in some way linked to a top tier clan. By definition, all the people suggested in other threads on this topic have all been people who are close friends of CAL Omega and Delta players/clans. To suggest that there is anyone can admin CAL-NS who isn't an interested party in some way, strikes me as a fairly dumb suggestion. *shrug*

So, what's your minimum proof required to ban someone?

whenyougofowards · April 2005

As far as cheating goes, demos of matches should be the only sufficent evidence. Usually there is a HLTV so there is an audience, and you can't really 'stage' it. There would also be no reason to 'protect' a user from exposure, because of the HLTV. As far as people hacking in pubs/scrims/whatever/ it's not that it would be excused, there should just be a tolerance level system, kinda like the new valve anti-cheat system. if you check your 'VAC-status' for most people it has something like 'in good standings.' Anyways, If there are any suspission of a player hacking out side of a match, then admins should be allowed to monitor pretty much all activity of that player ingame as they see fit. I don't feel like amnesiac's case was taken care of properly as many can see by the previous thread 'why all the conteversary' It wasn't as black & white straight foward as it was presented by the admins; but, with thier current rules, they *could* technically ban anyone they want for whatever reason they want. (wether or not they player is guilty of the accused or not is irrelevant.)

EDIT:
Consistency needs to be updated aswell.

Sarisel · April 2005

I really don't understand, from what logic you've presented, why it's so difficult to conceive of an admin that is impartial and not related to anyone from the competitive scene. You simply need a person not involved in the particular game, but someone specialized and experienced in anti-cheat for FPS games in general. CAL has such people. It's a different story to get a full time admin for the league that has the same qualities, but for the purposes of an inquiry into such cases as the one in question it isn't difficult to find someone.

Secondly, the person accused is also human - he also has feelings. However, if he is going to be treated with the "guilty until proven innocent" clause, then so should Hsu and any other admins involved. Alternatively, the normal "innocent until proven guilty" approach can be used. Justice is blind, it shouldn't favor those in power over those that are not. However, this is the CAL organization and only time will tell if there will be any justice served in this.

In cheat investigations, evidence should be tested for validity before the investigator even evaluates it. In the case of NS, the best kind of evidence is demos. Everything else is fatally insecure.

If it is a pub demo, it needs to be backed up by a server log with the same steam_IDs and preferably with a statement from a witness not involved with the people submitting the demo. In other words, if A is caught cheating on server and B submits a demo of it to the admins, then the admins need to get server logs and an optional statement from another player C (unrelated to A and B) that what happened happened. If it is a scrim demo, it needs to be verified by the player in that scrim. An official demo is the best and least troublesome with verification

You might say that anything can be forged, but it is pretty hard to forge demos to pass the testing listed above. You would need a major conspiracy for it. Ideally then, you'd want two different demos (both verifiable) to admit as evidence.

Once you have admissable evidence, there is the problem of how it is analyzed and how cheating is detected. This is often more flawed than the process of selecting admissable evidence and is where mosis's case was mishandled. As for this case, nobody even knows if there is any evidence, if it is valid if it exists, or if it was correctly analyzed and interpreted.

At this point I'm going to leave the discussion, since there isn't any point in submitting myself to yet another 9 page barrage of "groupie love" for either side of the case. People need to learn how to be <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=impartial' target='_blank'>impartial</a> in these circumstances, or else innocent people get prosecuted. I believe I've argued enough for this stance.

Thaldarin · April 2005

I'll try and do a Grendel here and try not to take sides in this.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Any unencrypted digital data is subject to tampering with, so all submitted demos, by definition, are useless unless the source is trusted. Anyone can generate as much digital evidence as they like against someone, given the time and motivation.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

99% of people have better time and do not have the skills or motivation to finish such a big job. Most people play with a high frame rate meaning a hell of alot of digital editing, can you honestly see that happening for say a 20 minute game?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Secondly, the person accused is also human - he also has feelings. However, if he is going to be treated with the "guilty until proven innocent" clause, then so should Hsu and any other admins involved. Alternatively, the normal "innocent until proven guilty" approach can be used. Justice is blind, it shouldn't favor those in power over those that are not. However, this is the CAL organization and only time will tell if there will be any justice served in this.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Equality is needed, which I think would mean a third party being involved communicating between player and league. It's not a simple solution, but it may possibly be one of the best.

Grendel · April 2005

The trick is finding someone not interested in the game and willing to give it their attention, or at least to act as oversight in cases such as this.

Router_Box · April 2005

The only required proof is something that displays a cal player using cheats, that the admins feel is legitimate. And there are ways to deduce legitimacy. I don't agree with the arguement that a ban needs to be proven to the public.

Swiftspear · April 2005

I tend to agree with grendal and roughter box here. There are other things about the CAL disiplinary system that I think could be improved if I understand some of the issues properly. For instance there is no reason to refuse to respond to a player that has been banned and let him defend himself, back and forth PR and getting both sides of an issue is very important to resolving conflicts without creating unessicary ill feelings. But I really don't think there is any nessesity for the CAL admins to be excessively paranoyed about the legitimacy of any evidence they have gathered. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell the difference between a demo submitted by a well respected comunity admin compared to one submitted by a morally questionable compeditive rival. I'm not saying that every situation is that cut and dry, but I trust that the CAL admins have at least SOME degree of compatence in analizing the background of a piece of evidence they are receiving.

Zephor · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 7 2005, 05:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The trick is finding someone not interested in the game and willing to give it their attention, or at least to act as oversight in cases such as this. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
That is what we had for 3 season. We had someone who didn't understand how clans were exploiting the game. They didn't know how to do divisions because he didn't know any of the teams and there was absolutely no passion for the game. If I were a cs admin adminning ns and I had to put up with the **** that you guys seem to give the CAL admin team then the league would have been gone long long before now. NS is a very weak game in CAL(has less teams than any game in the league and has not grow much at all since its beginning). The only reason its still here is because the admins who play the game know where it could go and understand its potential.

This is why we dont give out demos or any proof or give any counter for anyone accused of hacking:
1.) People will learn how we find hackers and they can avoid doing the same thing so they dont get caught. We're not going to make it harder for ourselves to find hackers just because some guy wants to start a huge drama on a different forum.
2.) People will question the admins. You are all entitled to your own opinions and we honestly dont want to give you too much evidence to back your case since there are a lot of people in this league who have huge mouths but not much knowledge to back it up. If they were honestly concerned about how the AC process goes they would have applied for admin and actually convinced me that you were a good choice.

Hey fun fact. it seems only one person in this thread even plays in CAL or that I know of. How can any of you honestly believe that you're qualified to make judgements on CAL unless you play in it? Here is another fun fact. The only competitive players you were arguing with in the last thread were either the accused or in the clan of the accused.

Sarisel · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Apr 7 2005, 11:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 7 2005, 05:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The trick is finding someone not interested in the game and willing to give it their attention, or at least to act as oversight in cases such as this. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
That is what we had for 3 season. We had someone who didn't understand how clans were exploiting the game. They didn't know how to do divisions because he didn't know any of the teams and there was absolutely no passion for the game. If I were a cs admin adminning ns and I had to put up with the **** that you guys seem to give the CAL admin team then the league would have been gone long long before now. NS is a very weak game in CAL(has less teams than any game in the league and has not grow much at all since its beginning). The only reason its still here is because the admins who play the game know where it could go and understand its potential.

This is why we dont give out demos or any proof or give any counter for anyone accused of hacking:
1.) People will learn how we find hackers and they can avoid doing the same thing so they dont get caught. We're not going to make it harder for ourselves to find hackers just because some guy wants to start a huge drama on a different forum.
2.) People will question the admins. You are all entitled to your own opinions and we honestly dont want to give you too much evidence to back your case since there are a lot of people in this league who have huge mouths but not much knowledge to back it up. If they were honestly concerned about how the AC process goes they would have applied for admin and actually convinced me that you were a good choice.

Hey fun fact. it seems only one person in this thread even plays in CAL or that I know of. How can any of you honestly believe that you're qualified to make judgements on CAL unless you play in it? Here is another fun fact. The only competitive players you were arguing with in the last thread were either the accused or in the clan of the accused.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Oh please! Spare the soap and lamentations! This is a topic about minimum required proof, its validity, and handling of cheating accusations, not about excuses and attempts to discredit posters.

Router_Box · April 2005

I thought that Zephor's post was legitimate. It is the CAL-Admins stance on the whole issue, and in my opinion its very valid.

I like how "reasons" become "excuses" when people don't agree with them.

If you feel discredited by anything he said, you might be. Discredibility is an important statistic in any conversation.

Sarisel · April 2005

There's a difference between discredibility and an attempt at achieving it. Most of the people that Zephor has attempted to discredit are experienced in NS. You do not - <b>do not</b> - have to play in CAL-NS to know what a cheat is and what is is not. At the same time, you do not - <b>do not</b> - have to know what a cheat is and what it is not if you are an admin.

1 - CAL version. People will learn how CAL-NS admins detect hackers.
1 - ANTI-CAL version. People will not learn about CAL-NS admins' inability to tell legit play from cheating.

2 - CAL version. People will question CAL-NS more if evidence is released, this is bad for CAL-NS. People should apply for admin position to prove to me that they're worthy.
2 - ANTI-CAL version. Questionable evidence will definitely lead to decreased CAL-NS admin credibility - exactly what CAL-NS doesn't want. CAL-NS admins decide who becomes the next CAL-NS admin. See a pattern?

The ball is being rolled around in a circle once again. This is why his post is not valid. This is what will lead to this topic getting locked unless a prune takes place soon.

Minstrel_Knight · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Apr 7 2005, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Any unencrypted digital data is subject to tampering with, so all submitted demos, by definition, are useless unless the source is trusted. Anyone can generate as much digital evidence as they like against someone, given the time and motivation.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

99% of people have better time and do not have the skills or motivation to finish such a big job. Most people play with a high frame rate meaning a hell of alot of digital editing, can you honestly see that happening for say a 20 minute game?
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I think it is clear that you don't understand what is involved in creating a fake demo. It can be done in five minutes.

digz · April 2005

Regardless on the concensus, it does not matter what the community thinks is necessary to incriminate a player using hax. I fully support CAL's decisions regarding how they handle themselves. They have their system in place. They are NOT acting like the tyrants some of you are suggesting, and are really putting a lot of work into the league to keep it above water.

Minstrel_Knight · April 2005

It has become clear that people are being banned based on public demos along with hearsay evidence. This is clearly ridiculous when you realize the ease with which public demos are faked, and I don't think I have to tell anyone how sad it is to ban people based on rumors.

Allowing evidence of this nature leads to some horrible bias. For example if someone were to submit a fake hacking demo of me, I'm sure that Hsu would ban me on the spot since he's been wanting to and then would actually have some evidence if another CAL admin asked to review the ban, and since CAL doesn't have to justify its actions to the riffraff playerbase everything would be wonderful.

Anyone who would like an assist in whipping that demo up feel free to ask me.

Sarisel · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Apr 7 2005, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Regardless on the concensus, it does not matter what the community thinks is necessary to incriminate a player using hax. I fully support CAL's decisions regarding how they handle themselves. They have their system in place. They are NOT acting like the tyrants some of you are suggesting, and are really putting a lot of work into the league to keep it above water.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
This is basically what I define as "groupie love": showing support while the topic has nothing to do with it.

Unholymaker · April 2005

cal chooses its admins for a reason, i dont think i need any more proof then their word..

Albino · April 2005

I have 100% confidence in each CAL-ns admin. They the most trustworthy people in the game in my opinion and they do a great job. I'm getting really tired of hearing all these morons give them **** for doing their job. Lay off.

*edit* In the interest of staying on topic I see the sufficient evidence as a demo, status screenshot showing steamid and an ingame screenshot showing the scoreboard be it in a pub, pug or match. *edit*

Router_Box · April 2005

You guys keep brining up the fake demo thing. Where did that come from? Who do you guys think was ever banned on fake demos?

whenyougofowards · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Apr 7 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I have 100% confidence in each CAL-ns admin. They the most trustworthy people in the game in my opinion and they do a great job.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You're mistaken or misinformed. The only admin I've seen that has done a deed worth praise is Hsu, that is until he got his current position as lead admin. But I guess this is all just speculation.

Emanon · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 7 2005, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You guys keep brining up the fake demo thing. Where did that come from? Who do you guys think was ever banned on fake demos?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I dont think they are suggesting that it did happen like you say but rather suggesting the possibility and how easy it could happen. I believe their point is that any demo from a public server cannot be trusted as the be all end all.

Jmmsbnd007 · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Apr 7 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I have 100% confidence in each CAL-ns admin. They the most trustworthy people in the game in my opinion and they do a great job. I'm getting really tired of hearing all these morons give them **** for doing their job. Lay off.

*edit* In the interest of staying on topic I see the sufficient evidence as a demo, status screenshot showing steamid and an ingame screenshot showing the scoreboard be it in a pub, pug or match. *edit*  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
<a href='http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html' target='_blank'>http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html</a>

Roberto · April 2005

Zephor explained himself with some good points, I'm going to respect them and if I really had a problem with the process, go learn all about hax and apply for the ac admin. Kind of a shame it took this long to get a response from him though.

Zephor · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 7 2005, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Apr 7 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I have 100% confidence in each CAL-ns admin. They the most trustworthy people in the game in my opinion and they do a great job. I'm getting really tired of hearing all these morons give them **** for doing their job. Lay off.

*edit* In the interest of staying on topic I see the sufficient evidence as a demo, status screenshot showing steamid and an ingame screenshot showing the scoreboard be it in a pub, pug or match. *edit* </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<a href='http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html' target='_blank'>http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html</a> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
There are ways to tell if a picture has been photoshoped. just FYI. Photoshop leaves a signature in the files that it creates. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

BulletInTehHead · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Apr 7 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> There are ways to tell if a picture has been photoshoped. just FYI. Photoshop leaves a signature in the files that it creates. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Also, I doubt that anyone here can sufficiently photoshop a file enough so that you can't tell that it has been altered. You can usually spot even the best photoshopping jobs from a mile away if you know what to look for.

Thaldarin · April 2005

On the topic of admins need knowledge and understanding of the game, this is all well and true and I entirely agree. I believe to help make player and league communication better and to judge cheat accusations more fairly, that admins <b>must</b> not be participating in the league that they admin.

Roberto · April 2005

but they still have to play the game.
"omg hax, he tracked him through the wall"
"mt..."

Router_Box · April 2005

Ok so if the conversations isn't that doctored evidence was used in these bans. And we've fairly certain that the admins know what they are doing and can spot hacks, I don't see what the problem is.

And we've still yet to see someone that plays in cal, that wasn't in xen, attack the admins. There is no problem with the admin's credibility, and there is no problem with how things are being run. Regardless of what the people wandering over here from gen disc feel like saying.

Jmmsbnd007 · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Apr 7 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 7 2005, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Apr 7 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I have 100% confidence in each CAL-ns admin. They the most trustworthy people in the game in my opinion and they do a great job. I'm getting really tired of hearing all these morons give them **** for doing their job. Lay off.

*edit* In the interest of staying on topic I see the sufficient evidence as a demo, status screenshot showing steamid and an ingame screenshot showing the scoreboard be it in a pub, pug or match. *edit* </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<a href='http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html' target='_blank'>http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html</a> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
There are ways to tell if a picture has been photoshoped. just FYI. Photoshop leaves a signature in the files that it creates. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Which could also come from people editing screenshots, etc to resize them, right?

theclam · April 2005

You can take out a Photoshop signature easily, by using PrintScreen and saving it as a bitmap in MSPaint and compressing it in another program. (This is assuming that Photoshop doesn't leave an actual watermark in the visible image itself, but leaves something that doesn't change what the image looks like).

Sarisel · April 2005

Yeah.. so if people cannot read what's on the same page of the topic, then there isn't going to be much success with the discussion.

Golden · April 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 7 2005, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It has become clear that people are being banned based on public demos along with hearsay evidence. This is clearly ridiculous when you realize the ease with which public demos are faked, and I don't think I have to tell anyone how sad it is to ban people based on rumors.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The only way it would be "clear" that people are being banned based on pub demos and hearsay evidence is if the evidence was released. Since it hasn't been released, nothing is "clear".

All you and the rest of Xensity are doing is attempted to discredit a legitimate organization by spreading unbased reasons and out of context statements.

Minimum Required Proof

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