Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Apr 4 2005, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Apr 4 2005, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The marines can have an unparalleled advantage in the almost-mid game stage if the commander knows how to abuse obs and scan.
Place the cheaper obs in strategic locations for free wall-hack, then use scan to reveal an area to allow your marines to safely pass through and foil ambushes.
This improves the marines' chance of securing locations, RTs and downing alien RTs. Fades will still be there, but they will now be harder pressed when they do appear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The mid game issue is focus fades and leaping skulks not cloaking.
I don't like the new phasegates. Seen too many games ruined in this short time frame by the entirety of the Marine team stuck in the same place on top of a PG. They don't telefrag each other, they just get stuck there, unable to move.. like a giant man-turret, waiting for a Skulk to come up and chow.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Apr 4 2005, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Apr 4 2005, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This patch makes marines stronger, but does zilch to adress chamber imbalances, which is the core of all imbalances of 3.0 final. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The obs and armslab buff will help against sensories and, to a lesser extent, against movements. In effect, this makes defense a better choice for the first chamber, although still not the best one, in my opinion.
Marines who can aim are always going to be better than skulks who rush them in corridors.
Haven't played this version yet (damn homework) but I think it might reinforce alien teamwork a bit while reinforcing Marines teamwork at the same time. Then again I haven't played it.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 4 2005, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 4 2005, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Apr 4 2005, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Apr 4 2005, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The marines can have an unparalleled advantage in the almost-mid game stage if the commander knows how to abuse obs and scan.
Place the cheaper obs in strategic locations for free wall-hack, then use scan to reveal an area to allow your marines to safely pass through and foil ambushes.
This improves the marines' chance of securing locations, RTs and downing alien RTs. Fades will still be there, but they will now be harder pressed when they do appear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The mid game issue is focus fades and leaping skulks not cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am GLAD that skulks don't stay cloaked while leaping. Can you imagine at 2 hives, silent, focus skulks within range of an SC chamber. *shudders*
"All clear! Commander, I'm standi..." *dead* *chuckle*
Personally I'd really like to see Fades not able to take focus and test that out for a month or two. Do that, and sensory will definitely not be overpowered anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 4 2005, 08:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 4 2005, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 4 2005, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 4 2005, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Apr 4 2005, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Apr 4 2005, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The marines can have an unparalleled advantage in the almost-mid game stage if the commander knows how to abuse obs and scan.
Place the cheaper obs in strategic locations for free wall-hack, then use scan to reveal an area to allow your marines to safely pass through and foil ambushes.
This improves the marines' chance of securing locations, RTs and downing alien RTs. Fades will still be there, but they will now be harder pressed when they do appear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The mid game issue is focus fades and leaping skulks not cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am GLAD that skulks don't stay cloaked while leaping. Can you imagine at 2 hives, silent, focus skulks within range of an SC chamber. *shudders*
"All clear! Commander, I'm standi..." *dead* *chuckle*
Personally I'd really like to see Fades not able to take focus and test that out for a month or two. Do that, and sensory will definitely not be overpowered anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> cloaker fade? That only leaves Sof fades which is stupid if your sensories are placed with any sort of intelligence.
You'll never run into an ambush, which kill non-cara fades quickly. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thank you very much for the patch. It was well thought-out and effective to our needs.
Re: Focus Fades
The objective of Focus is to counter resupply, medpacks, and to some extent, jetpacks. Also, hit and run tactics are enforced. Using defence instead, the fade will get an extra swipe in anyways, balancing between the two. Using movement, the fade will have the speed, sneaking ability, or extra energy to do what it wants to do. I think it's pretty well balanced between the three.
Now, balancing toward marines, a fade's greatest foe is teamwork and weaponry. Them's the breaks.
aye, I'd (in my inifinate lack of skill) rather take SoF as a fade, if not only because I know how easy it is sometimes to sneak about and block a fade or come around behind it and see the fear in its eyes as it realises it's got nowhere to go <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Heh, I find this update strange... mainly because on my regular server, long ago we stopped taking Sens as the first chamber. Comms and marines have more than enough talent to take care of it. Armor 1, motion tracking early, obs near bases, and the skulks die FAST. Sens first means two hive lockdown by the marines, most of the time, it seems. Generally, taking sens as first chamber is always a loss there... Focus fades and whatnot hurt the marines alot, but not enough to guarantee a win. As it stands, I see no real issues with Sens.
Right now, the favorite first chamber is MC... Celerity/adren for gorges, lerks, celerity/silence for the skulks, and the best one of all, is that the second hive can be defended somewhat easier... once anyone attacks the second hive, we all MC to it and defend it.
DC's are still popular too, but not as much (seen as "less fun"). DC fades and lerks are the big boon there, as well as DC's OC farms.
Overall, the aliens still win most, but for us it isn't Sens that is the problem... I think HMG's are definitely powerful enough, but maybe a little reduction on shotgun price would balance everything out, IMHO.
One problem I see frequently is in longer games. Those games are almost universally dominated by marines. Of course, these games are less frequent, but whenever a game goes long, marines generally win. Mainly it is due to the inability to take down lvl3 turret farms... comms on our server know where to place TF's and turrets so that it isn't easily bile bombed... When the game is getting long, the comm just keeps marines around the TF's and saves res. The turrets are hard to jump over (for fades and onos) to get at the marines... Generally there's one or two HMG's and GL's, and it is almost impossible.
Just recently we had a game go long, and one hive was locked, along with their base. Those were their only two res. With the lvl3 turrets, HMG's and GL's, we couldn't get close enough to take down anything important (like a PG or TF). The GL's were stopping bilebomb, the HMG's were stopping fades, and the turrets were slowing onos down enough that they were useless. We tried attacking from both sides, we tried MC rushes (3 separate MC rushes)... but it just wasn't to be. Eventually enough res was saved for the heavy train, and the game was over.
Again, I know this isn't common. It just seems to me that early game aliens may still have a slight advantage, but the longer the game goes, the advantage switches over to marines. (assuming equal skill, of course).
It's in the marines nature to gain a more steady hold the longer the game goes on if they're winning. THey don't need to keep re-evolving and (largely) don't have to rebuild.
Marines would be doing poorly if they got weaker as the game went on and they were on top/equalling the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin-JazzX+Apr 4 2005, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JazzX @ Apr 4 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crono!+Apr 4 2005, 07:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crono! @ Apr 4 2005, 07:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just out of interest, do any of the developers play Natural Selection at a competitive level?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Grepdashv started almost every game for us (Darwin's Law) this season, Commander and Res Dropper/walker Lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are you in Delta again?
Comments
Place the cheaper obs in strategic locations for free wall-hack, then use scan to reveal an area to allow your marines to safely pass through and foil ambushes.
This improves the marines' chance of securing locations, RTs and downing alien RTs. Fades will still be there, but they will now be harder pressed when they do appear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mid game issue is focus fades and leaping skulks not cloaking.
The obs and armslab buff will help against sensories and, to a lesser extent, against movements. In effect, this makes defense a better choice for the first chamber, although still not the best one, in my opinion.
Haven't played this version yet (damn homework) but I think it might reinforce alien teamwork a bit while reinforcing Marines teamwork at the same time. Then again I haven't played it.
I love these semi-fast updates...
<span style='color:red'><3 Devs</span>
Place the cheaper obs in strategic locations for free wall-hack, then use scan to reveal an area to allow your marines to safely pass through and foil ambushes.
This improves the marines' chance of securing locations, RTs and downing alien RTs. Fades will still be there, but they will now be harder pressed when they do appear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mid game issue is focus fades and leaping skulks not cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am GLAD that skulks don't stay cloaked while leaping. Can you imagine at 2 hives, silent, focus skulks within range of an SC chamber. *shudders*
"All clear! Commander, I'm standi..." *dead* *chuckle*
Personally I'd really like to see Fades not able to take focus and test that out for a month or two. Do that, and sensory will definitely not be overpowered anymore.
Place the cheaper obs in strategic locations for free wall-hack, then use scan to reveal an area to allow your marines to safely pass through and foil ambushes.
This improves the marines' chance of securing locations, RTs and downing alien RTs. Fades will still be there, but they will now be harder pressed when they do appear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mid game issue is focus fades and leaping skulks not cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am GLAD that skulks don't stay cloaked while leaping. Can you imagine at 2 hives, silent, focus skulks within range of an SC chamber. *shudders*
"All clear! Commander, I'm standi..." *dead* *chuckle*
Personally I'd really like to see Fades not able to take focus and test that out for a month or two. Do that, and sensory will definitely not be overpowered anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
cloaker fade? That only leaves Sof fades which is stupid if your sensories are placed with any sort of intelligence.
Re: Focus Fades
The objective of Focus is to counter resupply, medpacks, and to some extent, jetpacks. Also, hit and run tactics are enforced. Using defence instead, the fade will get an extra swipe in anyways, balancing between the two. Using movement, the fade will have the speed, sneaking ability, or extra energy to do what it wants to do. I think it's pretty well balanced between the three.
Now, balancing toward marines, a fade's greatest foe is teamwork and weaponry. Them's the breaks.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But I'm really ****, so ignore the above.
Right now, the favorite first chamber is MC... Celerity/adren for gorges, lerks, celerity/silence for the skulks, and the best one of all, is that the second hive can be defended somewhat easier... once anyone attacks the second hive, we all MC to it and defend it.
DC's are still popular too, but not as much (seen as "less fun"). DC fades and lerks are the big boon there, as well as DC's OC farms.
Overall, the aliens still win most, but for us it isn't Sens that is the problem... I think HMG's are definitely powerful enough, but maybe a little reduction on shotgun price would balance everything out, IMHO.
One problem I see frequently is in longer games. Those games are almost universally dominated by marines. Of course, these games are less frequent, but whenever a game goes long, marines generally win. Mainly it is due to the inability to take down lvl3 turret farms... comms on our server know where to place TF's and turrets so that it isn't easily bile bombed... When the game is getting long, the comm just keeps marines around the TF's and saves res. The turrets are hard to jump over (for fades and onos) to get at the marines... Generally there's one or two HMG's and GL's, and it is almost impossible.
Just recently we had a game go long, and one hive was locked, along with their base. Those were their only two res. With the lvl3 turrets, HMG's and GL's, we couldn't get close enough to take down anything important (like a PG or TF). The GL's were stopping bilebomb, the HMG's were stopping fades, and the turrets were slowing onos down enough that they were useless. We tried attacking from both sides, we tried MC rushes (3 separate MC rushes)... but it just wasn't to be. Eventually enough res was saved for the heavy train, and the game was over.
Again, I know this isn't common. It just seems to me that early game aliens may still have a slight advantage, but the longer the game goes, the advantage switches over to marines. (assuming equal skill, of course).
Ravlen
Marines would be doing poorly if they got weaker as the game went on and they were on top/equalling the aliens.
Grepdashv started almost every game for us (Darwin's Law) this season, Commander and Res Dropper/walker Lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you in Delta again?