I'd just like to put my view of combat across as I think it is relevant to this discussion.
I personally don't find combat to be as fun as classic but it is very useful to improve your skills. I've used it to make my leap skulk better, using upgrades sparingly so as to get a more realistic feel for when to escape in classic. I've used it to become familiar with the lerk flight model and I've also used it to make myself more familiar with slight changes in the thrust of blink etc. Again, only using the upgrades which allow me to judge when I need to escape accurrately.
I have also used it purely for practice, to help me survive those 50-50 situations where sometimes you may die. I'm not in a clan so I have no need to be better but I put the work in anyway because I find it very satisfying to be that game changing fade when I don't feel like dropping the chambers/hive/whatever which I also do quite often.
You can practice fading in classic but it takes you about 4 minutes minimum to become fade and then you don't know how long you are going to be fading for. Combat allows you to become fade in a shorter time and you are guaranteed to be able to go fade for the rest of the round. This is quite often 10 minutes. If you don't particularly like combat then you can just do this until you are to a sufficient standard to <b>survive</b> as fade in classic. The trick is to go for kills without dying, not to get as many kills as possible whilst dying. This is true in both combat and classic. A live fade can do something, a dead fade can do nothing.
As I have said I don't particularly find combat as fun to play as classic, but if you subject yourself to a given set of rules then it can be an extremely useful training aid.
I was considering this issue again, and I have come to realize that much of the 'fault' for the situation we have ourselves in lies at the feet of the game's design. Let me explain...
Overall, on the alien team, we have 3 classes that are primarily designed as attack classes. While the gorge and lerk do get kills, they are support class aliens and/or hybrid class support aliens.
With this in mind, we have 3 classes of alien that are primarily responsible for killing marines. When looking at skulks, they are really a 'suicide' class, even though we often forget about that fact. Sure, if you take on a lone marine you hope to be victorious and alive when the battle is done. However, in the case of 2 of more marines, you often enter into battle with the mindset of "taking out as many as I can before I die." Survival is optional, you know that when you are outnumbered that this will put you at a disadvantage because your health/armor is the lowest in the game.
Having acknowledged this, we now have two other classes that are supposedly designed to take out marines, but WITHOUT the ability to simply 'throw' yourself into battle. Both the fade and the onos have a price, and the cost to evolve to that class is non-refundable. If you die you are SOL. As such, your mindset when playing these classes changes to that where your primary thought is SURVIVAL.
Now, (stay with me here) there is really only one way you can make an alien class better able to kill marines AND come out alive. You have to give that class an advantage that the skulk doesn't have. So that means you can make its weapons more deadly, give it more health/armor, or make it faster/more agile. No matter how you lay it out, no class can have high levels of all three, since that would make it too powerful. This usually means you have a class that is high in one given aspect, and lacking in another.
The skulk is a fast and agile class, and it deals a significant 75 damage with every bite. So while it has high damage and high agility, it has low health which makes it vulnerable.
If we look towards the Onos, we see that it does 90 damage with its primary weapon and it has very high health and armor. As such, to make it balanced, the Onos is slow and has poor agility, which makes escaping combat alive that much more difficult.
Now we get to the fade... We know it does significant damage, (80 a swipe) so that means we need to lessen the other health/agility aspects. Since the skulk is already the 'weak health' class and the onos is already the 'weak agility' class, this leaves us with putting BOTH health and agility 'somewhere in the middle' so that the class isn't overly powerful OR agile.
Herein lies the problem. A class that has weak health/armor really NEEDS to be agile to survive. Alternately, a class that weak agility really NEEDS to have high health to survive. However, giving the fade lacklustre health/armor stats has put us in a position where we have had to INCREASE its 'lacklustre' agility to compensate, contrary to the primary concepts discussed above. Furthermore, the MANNER in which the fade was made more agile is complex and not intuitive to the user.
This has created two problems...
In the hands of a small minority of players, the increased agility makes the fade unstoppable and unkillable.
In the hands of an 'average' player, the lack of an intuitive interface design leads to an inability to use that class to a minimum level of functioning.
The worst part about this is that we are trapped in our own design. If we increase the health/armor of the fade to compensate for the poor interface, we only <b>increase</b> the number of users that will be able to use that buff to become 'unstoppable'. The same applies if we increase the means to deal damage to marines. Once increased, more people in the 'upper end' will be able to reach the 'unstoppable' plateau. Obviously, this is undesireable.
Lastly, if we are indeed able to make the fade's interface more intuitive, that too may in fact increase the number of 'unstoppable' fades. This is probably why we still hear people suggesting that the fade is too strong AND others that say it is too weak. Those who say it is too strong have met with those unstoppable fades on a regular basis, and because the fade is so hard to play, they rarely meet up against fades that are weak. Furthermore, 'weakly played' fades are rare for that very fact, since they are not played well, they die so fast that they never become something to be compared to. 'Middle of the road' fades seem to be rare, most people seem to be either very good or very bad.
We're faced with a problem in rectifying this issue, and it all comes down to blink. Most people have said that blink is a hard skill to use, and numerous reasons have been mentioned. Putting the individual concerns aside, I look at blink much like I would look at a speeding car. The faster a car is moving, the more critical it is that no driving mistake be made. At high speed, even the smallest mistake can cause a total loss of control.
Bringing this comparison to the game, you have the skulk which is fast, but which one really doesn't care too much if they 'wipe out'. There is no cost to skulk, so a major accident is no big deal. Conversely, the onos doesn't have this problem because they don't move that fast, and if they do make a mistake they have so much health/armor that they are able to withstand it.
Then we have the fade. When blinking it moves at a high rate of speed, but with its reduced health/armor levels (compared to the onos) it is at a greater risk for causality should an error be made. All it takes is even the slightest miscalculation to end the life of a fade. (and that assumes a person is able to play it to begin with)
Overall I think the fade is a class that is fundamentally flawed, and I can't see any way to maintain the fade's current attributes AND make it easier to use BUT not make it that much more unstoppable for the higher skilled players.
What to do? I think we should seriously consider changing some basic facets of the fade in an effort to find a 'new' balance.
First thing first, fade movement (IE blink) MUST become more user intuitive. This is non-negotiable and without it there is no hope of making the fade playable by any given player that decides to use the class.
To make the fade (and blink) easier to use, I believe the following suggestions might have merit:
-The fade's base speed should increase to that of the skulk. At present the fade's base speed is the <b>SAME as the Onos</b>, but it doesn't benefit from the same high level of health/armor that the Onos has. Increasing the base movement speed would help to take pressure off people from using blink ALL the time for even basic movement. The fade should be looked at (and it looks like) a 'super skulk'. The benefit here would be that a fade could 'run' into combat and then once they are ready to retreat, they could 'blink' out. Faster run speed won't impact those who use blink exclusively, it would more likely impact (and benefit) the 'average' user who plays the fade occasionally. A user that has trouble using blink could choose celerity to run in and out while a user that likes blink would choose adrenaline to increase their blink/attack times.
-Blink speed should slow down somewhat to allow for better control, and should be controllable in mid-air. Yes this will make the fade more manoeuvrable in skilled hands, but I will address this below.
-Make the fade <i>partially</i> transparent when blinking. This would fit in well with the backstory of the fade, and it would give a small measure of leeway when trying to navigate in awkward areas. (since it is a bit harder to see and thus a bit harder to aim) Although partially transparent, this would NOT affect the ability of a marine to hit the fade. It would only be a visual change, it wouldn't impact damage. The level of transparency could be tweaked later to a level that is reasonable.
-<b>Lower</b> the fade damage to 50 and cut swipe adrenaline usage by 50%. This is where the 'balance' comes in. As we have given the fade numerous benefits above, the trade-off has to be lower damage or lower health, and the fade is just too fragile already. ROF for swipe should be increased from 0.95 to 0.5 which will effectively mean the fade will do roughly the same damage per second. The payoff here is that since the damage is reduced and ROF is raised, a person will have to <b>land MORE hits </b>to make a kill. This shouldn't impact higher skilled players, but given how bouncy marines can be, it WILL be harder to kill as quickly as it is now. Each moment they are attacking a marine, they are under fire, so this will test their skills more than it does now. However that is something they can PRACTISE, and they will get better at it. For lower skilled players, they won't do as well as the higher skilled players. However, they will at least be able to get in and out of the combat zone <b>alive</b>, even if they haven't done much damage. That's the key here... Low skill will equal low damage, BUT won't necessarily mean instant death.
-OPTIONAL: If we wanted to take this one step further we could INCREASE the fade's health/armor to 400/200 and REDUCE the fade's weapon damage to 40. This action would increase the length of time a fade could stay in battle, but increase the number of hits a fade would need to successfully land. The numbers are subject to tweaking of course, but it's the concept that I'm looking at here. I believe that the longer the length of combat, the better the gameplay. There's not much fun in trying to attack a fade that is in and out in a split second. However a pitched battle where people are trying to repel an attack becomes much more enjoyable. This is more of an optional aspect though, depending on how the above would pan out.
To summarize, I think we need to reduce the reliance on blink while not removing it from play. This reduced reliance on blink (with the improvements mentioned) and decreased weapon damage would mean the fade would be more likely to be successfully used by 'average players' while not reducing the damage potential dealt by skilled players. (who normally have higher accuracy) At the same time the reduced damage wouldn't make it so that highly skilled players would 'own' more than they are now.
I don't think a biped fade should be outpacing a quadruped skulk, but it certainly should be able to outpace an Onos.
That said, the current sluglike pace encourages people to use Blink. If it moved like a skulk then you barely need to touch blink other than as a quick boost into and out of combat. Celerity would give nightmares.
Would altering the fade too much lead to it being abandoned, and instead have players flock to the Lerk and Onos?
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 27 2005, 09:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 27 2005, 09:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think a biped fade should be outpacing a quadruped skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never said outpace. Why are you misquoting me? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> My suggestion was for fade speed to <b>equal</b> the speed of a skulk. While I didn't note it, I would want to see the fade to have the same bhop limitation that the marines have. So overall skulks would still be faster than the fade, although their base speed would be the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That said, the current sluglike pace encourages people to use Blink. If it moved like a skulk then you barely need to touch blink other than as a quick boost into and out of combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the idea. By reducing the dependence on blink, we reduce the high level of skill needed to use the fade while not making the fade any more deadly in the hands of skilled players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Celerity would give nightmares.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but no. Celerity would make the fade no more a nightmare than it makes the skulk a nightmare. Considering the fade's now lower damage level, it will take nearly twice as many hits to kill any given marine. That means adrenaline, and with celerity you won't have the adrenaline upgrade. So while fast, your attack durations are limited by adrenaline and the fact you need to land more hits.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would altering the fade too much lead to it being abandoned, and instead have players flock to the Lerk and Onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Interesting question... I don't think people would abandon it any more than they have now. If anything, I think we may see an initial wave of people who will save their res and go fade instead of dropping chambers and such. However, after sustained losses, people will go back to building chambers and such.
Overall we may even see LESS use of the onos, if the fade is a user friendly class.
In public games, the reliance on fades can be balanced with the use of movement chambers first as an upgrade. Public games usually require a fade with defence chambers to be completely effective. With movement chambers, the fade's domination isn't as intense, because skulks become deadly with celerity. Fades can go celerity to move around quickly, adrenaline for the new players so they don't have to worry about running out of blinking power, and silence for those fades who wish to sneak up on rambo. Overall, fades become much more defensive until the second hive goes up and dc's are chosen, by this time a worthy marine team would have jetpackers and hmgs, and attempts on taking out the hives, so the fades need cara or regen to go along with their celerity.
I think there should either be a slow down on the fades blink or have blink use more or a certain amount of adrenaline every time you click or "attack" with it (a common way that skilled players move around is short clicks of blink and a bunnyhop like state, their adrenaline remains full or nearly full no matter how long they move around the map), causing fades to be slower and forced to walk more often to recharge adrenaline.
Fades have too much speed and too much hp in certain situations. There's no way that a fade should realistically live if it runs straight into a group of 4 marines, past them, and out the door. Fades should be nerfed to be more cautious. I think development is to a point that for balance to be ensured, we need some of the technology of source to fix some problems.
Edit: I love the idea of a fade becoming partially transparent when blinking, it would fit well and probably make it seem faster than it actually is.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Depending on the player, the fade can be both the most useful and most useless alien class. When it comes to balancing such a unit, a problem arises; if the fade was nerfed in order to lower its maximum potency, it's mimimum potency would also decrease as a matter of course. Unsuprisingly, the reverse would also hold true if the balancer was to attempt to increase its minimum potency. This has lead me to believe that 'rebalancing' the fade would not be a clean cut numbers game, with alterations to health, damage, RoF, etc.
Keeping that in mind, consider the fade as a whole; it's a melee unit. As far as basic tactics go, its only viable playstyle is hit and run. As I noted above, tweaking the fade's ability to hit is largely pointless. This leaves us with the tweaking of the fade's ability to run; its ability to open and close the gap.
From my personal experience, almost all fades die when they are opening or closing the gap; rarely when they are actually engaged in combat. Personally, I consider it the 'trick' to learning the fade. It's already been touched on a number of times in this thread already: walker fades, energy management, blinking at a heightened angle in order to go further, bhopping; all are connected to closing the gap and the various techniques thereof.
The question is; assuming that this is the direction to go in order to 'rebalance' the fade, what should be tweaked?
The most obvious candidate is blink. It is, after all, the method of closing and opening the gap preferred by all fades with half a clue.
The only other candidate which immediately comes to mind is its walking/running speed. Compared to the other classes (the only relavent classes being the skulk and onos), the disparity between the fade's running and blink speeds is quite large. Perhaps this is why the fade is so hard to pick up initially; after growing accustomed to the lumbering gait of the fade in its 'natural habitat', they are severely bitchslapped by the raw speed of blink.
Ok, let me put it this way: blink is the most fun ability I have every used in any game. The feature is original, and fun to use.
Now we have a cool ability that makes the game worthwhile, lets balance the game around that instead of removing the ability because we're too thick to come up with balancing measures.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 28 2005, 04:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 28 2005, 04:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, let me put it this way: blink is the most fun ability I have every used in any game. The feature is original, and fun to use. Now we have a cool ability that makes the game worthwhile, lets balance the game around that instead of removing the ability because we're too thick to come up with balancing measures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be ignorant and arrogant for anyone to suggest that just because THEY like something in the game that it should never be altered. Just look at the thread asking to bring back babblers. They were one of the funniest things I had ever used in NS, but I understand why they had to go.
While I'm not suggsting blink be removed, I am suggesting that it be changed so that it no longer HAS to be used by people playing the fade, and that when people do use it that it will be easier to use.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 28 2005, 11:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 28 2005, 11:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 28 2005, 04:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 28 2005, 04:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, let me put it this way: blink is the most fun ability I have every used in any game. The feature is original, and fun to use. Now we have a cool ability that makes the game worthwhile, lets balance the game around that instead of removing the ability because we're too thick to come up with balancing measures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be ignorant and arrogant for anyone to suggest that just because THEY like something in the game that it should never be altered. Just look at the thread asking to bring back babblers. They were one of the funniest things I had ever used in NS, but I understand why they had to go.
While I'm not suggsting blink be removed, I am suggesting that it be changed so that it no longer HAS to be used by people playing the fade, and that when people do use it that it will be easier to use.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be ignorant and arrogant to expect people who like a feature to not argue their point of view against those who wants the feature changed or removed.
While I'm not suggesting that I speak for everyone, indeed we have had proof of the oposit in this thread, I am suggesting that it isnt changed, since I feel this feature is one of those I like the best in this game.
Regards,
tjosan
[Edit]While change in general is needed, not every possible change is positive or desirable.
Slot1: Swipe - 80Dmg 6% Energy Slot2: Blink - 4% Energy Slot3: Metabolize - 20 pts every 1/3 second Slot4: Acid Rocket - 25/50Dmg 10% Energy <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Now, Im going to brainstorm every aspect of this class that can be modified (without altering the entire kharaa side): <!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> Health Armor Speed Swipe Blink Meta Acid R Res Cost Addrenaline Requirments Size Addrenaline Refill Rate Weapon Slot Order Weapon Slot Recoil <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2--> So, looking at this list I see some things that could be changed without altering the rest of the fade's abilities. -Weapon Slot Recoil (time it takes to switch weapons and have that weapon ready to use). -Addrenaline Requirments (how much addrenaline each weapon uses).
Some alterations that require other changes: Fade size. Shrinking the fade down a "head" or two, makes it a harder target to hit, but easier to control. I would increase blink addrenaline cost but also buff the speed of the alien.
Slot order. I would switch Blink and Meta. This would make blink a second hive ability but would require a buff to meta and land speed.
Remove Acid Rockets Completely. Rework the fade model. Include a new weapon for this class to better suit its role and can counter any balance issues that will be met for nerfing/buffing the fade to make it more user friendly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Weapon Slot Recoil (time it takes to switch weapons and have that weapon ready to use). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would suggest lowering the recoil first, before touching anything else.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hellabean+Mar 28 2005, 04:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hellabean @ Mar 28 2005, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I know its been said a thousand times, but does it really make sense that 2nd hive abilities are more powerful than 3rd hive ones? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd much rather meet a meta fade than an AR fade though. Ranged attacks combined with powerful melee attacks, high speed and a decent regeneration rate is just something way too ugly. AR <b>is</b> a game ender.
[Edit]Because of all the focus on the fade (ohohoh... pun unintended...) I forgot this was a thread about mid game balance in general, and thatr your comment most likely was a comment about abilites in general. Sorry about that.
Regardless, I don't think a fade should be moving at the same speed as a skulk without using blink.
The only problem with blink is aiming it and not holding down the button. If anything, it should just be an altered jump key similar to lerk flight. Hit space bar, do a blink. Then replace the blink slot with spikes, or some other useful ability. Swipe stay the primary ability, perhaps spike as the second (tweaked for 3.0), meta stays at two, AR at three for taking out armour. Easy enough. Solves the problem, means people learn to tap blink as they would tap flap.
Celerity would be nightmarish, because a walker fade, which is UNDESIRABLE, suddenly becomes far too viable. People should be using blink for movement, not using celer to boost WALKING pace. I use celer on my fade and thats mostly for the perceived speed boost in flight. Better fades are not walker fades, so the less we encourage walkers the better.
Second, a celer skulk is not too much of a nightmare because unlike the fade its very easy to shoot down, and doesn't dish out one hit kills at higher levels.
Its an awful lot of sweeping changes just to make the fade an overgrown skulk. We just need to make blinking easier, and if it was activated by the jump key then people WOULD use it more, and would only need to fastswitch between swipe and meta. Sounds good to me.
So yeah, blink moved to space bar, no more jumping for the fade. Should make things easier for the nublet, you can focus on switching WEAPONS (like the lerk has to) as opposed to switching between weapons and movement.
I'd just like to reitterate how open minded and generally good half of this thread has been, apart from the obvious "pro gamer" view points of not changing something they're used to.
The AWP...amazing in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing, but fun even if you don't.
The Garrand in DoD, likewise
The skulk, a similar example
The fade...amazing in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing, absolutely useless in anyone elses hands. A waste of time and team resources (despite the individuality of the res management on khaara teams).
I've been really happy to see playtesters as well actually acknolwedging this. The community is a great one here with NS, better than any other game I've known, but the same *will* happen as happened with CS or DoD before the game grows again.
Right now 3.01 is great, it's back on that kind of v2 type level of fun over frustration...but the fade still is not a fun class to use. This was the same with the old AWP and the methods of playing DoD...claiming people need to take time to learn or sort their config out is actually detrimental to this conversation. I've seen people belittle people like Savant and Grendel simply because they're quoted people in different circumstances...but why? There will always be an elite base in NS, clanners and pubbers, and no doubt in the future some will leave because the game has been "ruined" (read: the game is no longer the one they exclusively owned at) same as CS and DoD...but at least in that future NS will be needing more servers to accomodate for more players and a generally more diverse and more fun playing environment. Changing the fade so that every man or woman playing can at least have fun (if not actually be effective) with it is one step closer to that kind of existence.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 28 2005, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 28 2005, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So yeah, blink moved to space bar, no more jumping for the fade. Should make things easier for the nublet, you can focus on switching WEAPONS (like the lerk has to) as opposed to switching between weapons and movement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually a very good idea. Fade movement would be alot harder for skilled players with the lack of jump, and easy for any noob player to figure out. Then we can get a new slot 2 ability...
What if the new slot 2 ability could be something like onos charge, where the fade speed and attack power see a 25% increase while adrenaline gradually reduces. This increase would bring the fades attack power and speed up to what the current level is right now, so that its base speed and attack power would be lower, and the use of extra adrenaline makes them more vulnerable. This would also encourage the use of adrenaline for good players rather than the normal celerity all the time.
So, it could either be like the onos charge and last until adrenaline runs out (which would be bad because blink power is then gone), or for a set period, blinking and attacking takes 40% more energy than normal to get the 25% increase in power...
I'm usually not big on deciding on percentages and stats for features, because the devs will know what's best in that sort of area. Any opinions?
I like the idea of putting blink on the jump key. As Zyco said, it brings the usefulness of newbies and clanners a little closer together. Also, it means less weapon switching, making it usable for average players that have a good idea of how to play the game, but aren't skilled enough to change weapons constantly. If people disagree with jump being removed, then blink should at least be its own key, separate from weapon slots.
People don't seem to have a problem with lerk using the jump button for dual use, can't really see any problem with the fade using it for blink in that case <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Mar 28 2005, 09:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Mar 28 2005, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People don't seem to have a problem with lerk using the jump button for dual use, can't really see any problem with the fade using it for blink in that case <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The spacebar works for the lerk because the lerk glides, the fade does no such thing
By the way you can already hotwire blink onto the space bar, it's not hard to do
reading through 16 pages of repeating what the guy before him said was pretty fun.
allow me to continue this popular trend.
I think that fade is only good in a skilled players hands, in a newbies hands they suck and die.
I'm good at this. Now allow me to point out the even more obvious.
If blink worked like it did in 1.0, the fade would be easier to use, and I really liked the whole effect of being able to disappear and no one knowing what direction you went in.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 28 2005, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 28 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way you can already hotwire blink onto the space bar, it's not hard to do <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It requires a script that switches to blink, activates it, and switches back, though. It also means that lastinv will take you to blink, rather than metabolize, swipe, or whatever else you would like to switch to. This means that it still isn't as convenient to use as a built-in function, and new players probably aren't going to start off using scripts. So, it isn't the same thing.
<!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Mar 29 2005, 01:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 29 2005, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 28 2005, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 28 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way you can already hotwire blink onto the space bar, it's not hard to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It requires a script that switches to blink, activates it, and switches back, though. It also means that lastinv will take you to blink, rather than metabolize, swipe, or whatever else you would like to switch to. This means that it still isn't as convenient to use as a built-in function, and new players probably aren't going to start off using scripts. So, it isn't the same thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no, you can make a script that remembers your lastinv
Why would you even use lastinv, if you have blink on your space bar?
I don't know if switching blink to spacebar is a good idea. Once you get used to it, it would be even more powerful than it is now. Blink/Meta/Adren could let you have infinite (or almost infinite) energy, while blinking, but you could still instantly switch to attack and switch back to your infinite energy combo, without any problems.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Mar 28 2005, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Mar 28 2005, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would you even use lastinv, if you have blink on your space bar?
I don't know if switching blink to spacebar is a good idea. Once you get used to it, it would be even more powerful than it is now. Blink/Meta/Adren could let you have infinite (or almost infinite) energy, while blinking, but you could still instantly switch to attack and switch back to your infinite energy combo, without any problems. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lastinv would be for switching between meta and swipe. That change would make the fade easier to get used to. Like you say, it would become more powerful. To offset this, other parts of the fade can be nerfed, such as lowering the speed or hp of the fade.
but it would work the same as in a good fade's hands now
only slower or with less hp, therefore making fades suck at higher levels
the only thing that would happen would be more good fades at lower levels of play and then the marines will actually have to learn to aim, but that's too hard for some people, I mean, in the right hands the LMG is deadly! But in the hands of an utter newbie it can't do anything! It's surely unfair. I propose we turn the LMG into some kind of super accurate SMG that fires at twice the rof it does now
alias "+metab" "slot3;wait;+attack" alias "-metab" "-attack;wait;slot1"
alias "+metab2" "slot3;wait;+attack" alias "-metab2" "-attack;wait;slot2"
alias "+metab3" "slot3;wait;+attack" alias "-metab3" "-attack;wait;slot3"
alias "+metab4" "slot3;wait;+attack" alias "-metab4" "-attack;wait;slot4"
alias "+para" "slot2;wait;+attack" alias "-para" "-attack;wait;slot1"
alias "+para2" "slot2;wait;+attack" alias "-para2" "-attack;wait;slot2"
alias "+para3" "slot2;wait;+attack" alias "-para3" "-attack;wait;slot3"
alias "+para4" "slot2;wait;+attack" alias "-para4" "-attack;wait;slot4" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could use that. (Modified for mouse2/3, credits and flames go to NGE)
It is not as effectiv as switching weapons manually, but when beeing lazy....... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that is some hackery
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 29 2005, 01:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 29 2005, 01:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> reading through 16 pages of repeating what the guy before him said was pretty fun.
allow me to continue this popular trend.
I think that fade is only good in a skilled players hands, in a newbies hands they suck and die.
I'm good at this. Now allow me to point out the even more obvious.
If blink worked like it did in 1.0, the fade would be easier to use, and I really liked the whole effect of being able to disappear and no one knowing what direction you went in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> omg steve, but that unbalances the game, because the gap between the leet and the poor is way too big! Thats the point nublar!!!!1
Actually an instant teleportation blink would probably be a lot better for new players, because at least they wouldn't get stuck on marines blocking them, and they wouldn't be able to get hit while blinking.
That said, I now think that a blink permanently bound to the spacebar like the lerk's flight would be a reasonable compromise. Just make it function like the current blink: little taps are preferable over holding the button down. This way new players don't have to worry about switching between blink and swipe, they can blink in and swipe when they're close, BUT experienced players will still be better fades because they'll be able to conserve energy better than new fades. Increasing the range of swipe would also work wonders increasing the fade's playability for new players.
Comments
I personally don't find combat to be as fun as classic but it is very useful to improve your skills. I've used it to make my leap skulk better, using upgrades sparingly so as to get a more realistic feel for when to escape in classic. I've used it to become familiar with the lerk flight model and I've also used it to make myself more familiar with slight changes in the thrust of blink etc. Again, only using the upgrades which allow me to judge when I need to escape accurrately.
I have also used it purely for practice, to help me survive those 50-50 situations where sometimes you may die. I'm not in a clan so I have no need to be better but I put the work in anyway because I find it very satisfying to be that game changing fade when I don't feel like dropping the chambers/hive/whatever which I also do quite often.
You can practice fading in classic but it takes you about 4 minutes minimum to become fade and then you don't know how long you are going to be fading for. Combat allows you to become fade in a shorter time and you are guaranteed to be able to go fade for the rest of the round. This is quite often 10 minutes. If you don't particularly like combat then you can just do this until you are to a sufficient standard to <b>survive</b> as fade in classic. The trick is to go for kills without dying, not to get as many kills as possible whilst dying. This is true in both combat and classic. A live fade can do something, a dead fade can do nothing.
As I have said I don't particularly find combat as fun to play as classic, but if you subject yourself to a given set of rules then it can be an extremely useful training aid.
Overall, on the alien team, we have 3 classes that are primarily designed as attack classes. While the gorge and lerk do get kills, they are support class aliens and/or hybrid class support aliens.
With this in mind, we have 3 classes of alien that are primarily responsible for killing marines. When looking at skulks, they are really a 'suicide' class, even though we often forget about that fact. Sure, if you take on a lone marine you hope to be victorious and alive when the battle is done. However, in the case of 2 of more marines, you often enter into battle with the mindset of "taking out as many as I can before I die." Survival is optional, you know that when you are outnumbered that this will put you at a disadvantage because your health/armor is the lowest in the game.
Having acknowledged this, we now have two other classes that are supposedly designed to take out marines, but WITHOUT the ability to simply 'throw' yourself into battle. Both the fade and the onos have a price, and the cost to evolve to that class is non-refundable. If you die you are SOL. As such, your mindset when playing these classes changes to that where your primary thought is SURVIVAL.
Now, (stay with me here) there is really only one way you can make an alien class better able to kill marines AND come out alive. You have to give that class an advantage that the skulk doesn't have. So that means you can make its weapons more deadly, give it more health/armor, or make it faster/more agile. No matter how you lay it out, no class can have high levels of all three, since that would make it too powerful. This usually means you have a class that is high in one given aspect, and lacking in another.
The skulk is a fast and agile class, and it deals a significant 75 damage with every bite. So while it has high damage and high agility, it has low health which makes it vulnerable.
If we look towards the Onos, we see that it does 90 damage with its primary weapon and it has very high health and armor. As such, to make it balanced, the Onos is slow and has poor agility, which makes escaping combat alive that much more difficult.
Now we get to the fade... We know it does significant damage, (80 a swipe) so that means we need to lessen the other health/agility aspects. Since the skulk is already the 'weak health' class and the onos is already the 'weak agility' class, this leaves us with putting BOTH health and agility 'somewhere in the middle' so that the class isn't overly powerful OR agile.
Herein lies the problem. A class that has weak health/armor really NEEDS to be agile to survive. Alternately, a class that weak agility really NEEDS to have high health to survive. However, giving the fade lacklustre health/armor stats has put us in a position where we have had to INCREASE its 'lacklustre' agility to compensate, contrary to the primary concepts discussed above. Furthermore, the MANNER in which the fade was made more agile is complex and not intuitive to the user.
This has created two problems...
In the hands of a small minority of players, the increased agility makes the fade unstoppable and unkillable.
In the hands of an 'average' player, the lack of an intuitive interface design leads to an inability to use that class to a minimum level of functioning.
The worst part about this is that we are trapped in our own design. If we increase the health/armor of the fade to compensate for the poor interface, we only <b>increase</b> the number of users that will be able to use that buff to become 'unstoppable'. The same applies if we increase the means to deal damage to marines. Once increased, more people in the 'upper end' will be able to reach the 'unstoppable' plateau. Obviously, this is undesireable.
Lastly, if we are indeed able to make the fade's interface more intuitive, that too may in fact increase the number of 'unstoppable' fades. This is probably why we still hear people suggesting that the fade is too strong AND others that say it is too weak. Those who say it is too strong have met with those unstoppable fades on a regular basis, and because the fade is so hard to play, they rarely meet up against fades that are weak. Furthermore, 'weakly played' fades are rare for that very fact, since they are not played well, they die so fast that they never become something to be compared to. 'Middle of the road' fades seem to be rare, most people seem to be either very good or very bad.
We're faced with a problem in rectifying this issue, and it all comes down to blink. Most people have said that blink is a hard skill to use, and numerous reasons have been mentioned. Putting the individual concerns aside, I look at blink much like I would look at a speeding car. The faster a car is moving, the more critical it is that no driving mistake be made. At high speed, even the smallest mistake can cause a total loss of control.
Bringing this comparison to the game, you have the skulk which is fast, but which one really doesn't care too much if they 'wipe out'. There is no cost to skulk, so a major accident is no big deal. Conversely, the onos doesn't have this problem because they don't move that fast, and if they do make a mistake they have so much health/armor that they are able to withstand it.
Then we have the fade. When blinking it moves at a high rate of speed, but with its reduced health/armor levels (compared to the onos) it is at a greater risk for causality should an error be made. All it takes is even the slightest miscalculation to end the life of a fade. (and that assumes a person is able to play it to begin with)
Overall I think the fade is a class that is fundamentally flawed, and I can't see any way to maintain the fade's current attributes AND make it easier to use BUT not make it that much more unstoppable for the higher skilled players.
What to do? I think we should seriously consider changing some basic facets of the fade in an effort to find a 'new' balance.
First thing first, fade movement (IE blink) MUST become more user intuitive. This is non-negotiable and without it there is no hope of making the fade playable by any given player that decides to use the class.
To make the fade (and blink) easier to use, I believe the following suggestions might have merit:
-The fade's base speed should increase to that of the skulk. At present the fade's base speed is the <b>SAME as the Onos</b>, but it doesn't benefit from the same high level of health/armor that the Onos has. Increasing the base movement speed would help to take pressure off people from using blink ALL the time for even basic movement. The fade should be looked at (and it looks like) a 'super skulk'. The benefit here would be that a fade could 'run' into combat and then once they are ready to retreat, they could 'blink' out. Faster run speed won't impact those who use blink exclusively, it would more likely impact (and benefit) the 'average' user who plays the fade occasionally. A user that has trouble using blink could choose celerity to run in and out while a user that likes blink would choose adrenaline to increase their blink/attack times.
-Blink speed should slow down somewhat to allow for better control, and should be controllable in mid-air. Yes this will make the fade more manoeuvrable in skilled hands, but I will address this below.
-Make the fade <i>partially</i> transparent when blinking. This would fit in well with the backstory of the fade, and it would give a small measure of leeway when trying to navigate in awkward areas. (since it is a bit harder to see and thus a bit harder to aim) Although partially transparent, this would NOT affect the ability of a marine to hit the fade. It would only be a visual change, it wouldn't impact damage. The level of transparency could be tweaked later to a level that is reasonable.
-<b>Lower</b> the fade damage to 50 and cut swipe adrenaline usage by 50%. This is where the 'balance' comes in. As we have given the fade numerous benefits above, the trade-off has to be lower damage or lower health, and the fade is just too fragile already. ROF for swipe should be increased from 0.95 to 0.5 which will effectively mean the fade will do roughly the same damage per second. The payoff here is that since the damage is reduced and ROF is raised, a person will have to <b>land MORE hits </b>to make a kill. This shouldn't impact higher skilled players, but given how bouncy marines can be, it WILL be harder to kill as quickly as it is now. Each moment they are attacking a marine, they are under fire, so this will test their skills more than it does now. However that is something they can PRACTISE, and they will get better at it. For lower skilled players, they won't do as well as the higher skilled players. However, they will at least be able to get in and out of the combat zone <b>alive</b>, even if they haven't done much damage. That's the key here... Low skill will equal low damage, BUT won't necessarily mean instant death.
-OPTIONAL: If we wanted to take this one step further we could INCREASE the fade's health/armor to 400/200 and REDUCE the fade's weapon damage to 40. This action would increase the length of time a fade could stay in battle, but increase the number of hits a fade would need to successfully land. The numbers are subject to tweaking of course, but it's the concept that I'm looking at here. I believe that the longer the length of combat, the better the gameplay. There's not much fun in trying to attack a fade that is in and out in a split second. However a pitched battle where people are trying to repel an attack becomes much more enjoyable. This is more of an optional aspect though, depending on how the above would pan out.
To summarize, I think we need to reduce the reliance on blink while not removing it from play. This reduced reliance on blink (with the improvements mentioned) and decreased weapon damage would mean the fade would be more likely to be successfully used by 'average players' while not reducing the damage potential dealt by skilled players. (who normally have higher accuracy) At the same time the reduced damage wouldn't make it so that highly skilled players would 'own' more than they are now.
Just some more things to think about...
Regards,
Savant
That said, the current sluglike pace encourages people to use Blink. If it moved like a skulk then you barely need to touch blink other than as a quick boost into and out of combat. Celerity would give nightmares.
Would altering the fade too much lead to it being abandoned, and instead have players flock to the Lerk and Onos?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That said, the current sluglike pace encourages people to use Blink. If it moved like a skulk then you barely need to touch blink other than as a quick boost into and out of combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the idea. By reducing the dependence on blink, we reduce the high level of skill needed to use the fade while not making the fade any more deadly in the hands of skilled players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Celerity would give nightmares.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but no. Celerity would make the fade no more a nightmare than it makes the skulk a nightmare. Considering the fade's now lower damage level, it will take nearly twice as many hits to kill any given marine. That means adrenaline, and with celerity you won't have the adrenaline upgrade. So while fast, your attack durations are limited by adrenaline and the fact you need to land more hits.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would altering the fade too much lead to it being abandoned, and instead have players flock to the Lerk and Onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Interesting question... I don't think people would abandon it any more than they have now. If anything, I think we may see an initial wave of people who will save their res and go fade instead of dropping chambers and such. However, after sustained losses, people will go back to building chambers and such.
Overall we may even see LESS use of the onos, if the fade is a user friendly class.
Regards,
Savant
I think there should either be a slow down on the fades blink or have blink use more or a certain amount of adrenaline every time you click or "attack" with it (a common way that skilled players move around is short clicks of blink and a bunnyhop like state, their adrenaline remains full or nearly full no matter how long they move around the map), causing fades to be slower and forced to walk more often to recharge adrenaline.
Fades have too much speed and too much hp in certain situations. There's no way that a fade should realistically live if it runs straight into a group of 4 marines, past them, and out the door. Fades should be nerfed to be more cautious. I think development is to a point that for balance to be ensured, we need some of the technology of source to fix some problems.
Edit: I love the idea of a fade becoming partially transparent when blinking, it would fit well and probably make it seem faster than it actually is.
Keeping that in mind, consider the fade as a whole; it's a melee unit. As far as basic tactics go, its only viable playstyle is hit and run. As I noted above, tweaking the fade's ability to hit is largely pointless. This leaves us with the tweaking of the fade's ability to run; its ability to open and close the gap.
From my personal experience, almost all fades die when they are opening or closing the gap; rarely when they are actually engaged in combat. Personally, I consider it the 'trick' to learning the fade. It's already been touched on a number of times in this thread already: walker fades, energy management, blinking at a heightened angle in order to go further, bhopping; all are connected to closing the gap and the various techniques thereof.
The question is; assuming that this is the direction to go in order to 'rebalance' the fade, what should be tweaked?
The most obvious candidate is blink. It is, after all, the method of closing and opening the gap preferred by all fades with half a clue.
The only other candidate which immediately comes to mind is its walking/running speed. Compared to the other classes (the only relavent classes being the skulk and onos), the disparity between the fade's running and blink speeds is quite large. Perhaps this is why the fade is so hard to pick up initially; after growing accustomed to the lumbering gait of the fade in its 'natural habitat', they are severely bitchslapped by the raw speed of blink.
Now we have a cool ability that makes the game worthwhile, lets balance the game around that instead of removing the ability because we're too thick to come up with balancing measures.
It would be ignorant and arrogant for anyone to suggest that just because THEY like something in the game that it should never be altered. Just look at the thread asking to bring back babblers. They were one of the funniest things I had ever used in NS, but I understand why they had to go.
While I'm not suggsting blink be removed, I am suggesting that it be changed so that it no longer HAS to be used by people playing the fade, and that when people do use it that it will be easier to use.
Regards,
Savant
It would be ignorant and arrogant for anyone to suggest that just because THEY like something in the game that it should never be altered. Just look at the thread asking to bring back babblers. They were one of the funniest things I had ever used in NS, but I understand why they had to go.
While I'm not suggsting blink be removed, I am suggesting that it be changed so that it no longer HAS to be used by people playing the fade, and that when people do use it that it will be easier to use.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be ignorant and arrogant to expect people who like a feature to not argue their point of view against those who wants the feature changed or removed.
While I'm not suggesting that I speak for everyone, indeed we have had proof of the oposit in this thread, I am suggesting that it isnt changed, since I feel this feature is one of those I like the best in this game.
Regards,
tjosan
[Edit]While change in general is needed, not every possible change is positive or desirable.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
Speed:240 units/second
Health:300
Armor:150
Slot1: Swipe - 80Dmg 6% Energy
Slot2: Blink - 4% Energy
Slot3: Metabolize - 20 pts every 1/3 second
Slot4: Acid Rocket - 25/50Dmg 10% Energy
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Now, Im going to brainstorm every aspect of this class that can be modified (without altering the entire kharaa side):
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
Health Armor Speed
Swipe Blink Meta
Acid R Res Cost Addrenaline Requirments
Size Addrenaline Refill Rate
Weapon Slot Order Weapon Slot Recoil
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
So, looking at this list I see some things that could be changed without altering the rest of the fade's abilities.
-Weapon Slot Recoil (time it takes to switch weapons and have that weapon ready to use).
-Addrenaline Requirments (how much addrenaline each weapon uses).
Some alterations that require other changes:
Fade size. Shrinking the fade down a "head" or two, makes it a harder target to hit, but easier to control. I would increase blink addrenaline cost but also buff the speed of the alien.
Slot order. I would switch Blink and Meta. This would make blink a second hive ability but would require a buff to meta and land speed.
Remove Acid Rockets Completely. Rework the fade model. Include a new weapon for this class to better suit its role and can counter any balance issues that will be met for nerfing/buffing the fade to make it more user friendly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would suggest lowering the recoil first, before touching anything else.
I'd much rather meet a meta fade than an AR fade though. Ranged attacks combined with powerful melee attacks, high speed and a decent regeneration rate is just something way too ugly. AR <b>is</b> a game ender.
[Edit]Because of all the focus on the fade (ohohoh... pun unintended...) I forgot this was a thread about mid game balance in general, and thatr your comment most likely was a comment about abilites in general. Sorry about that.
The only problem with blink is aiming it and not holding down the button. If anything, it should just be an altered jump key similar to lerk flight. Hit space bar, do a blink. Then replace the blink slot with spikes, or some other useful ability. Swipe stay the primary ability, perhaps spike as the second (tweaked for 3.0), meta stays at two, AR at three for taking out armour. Easy enough. Solves the problem, means people learn to tap blink as they would tap flap.
Celerity would be nightmarish, because a walker fade, which is UNDESIRABLE, suddenly becomes far too viable. People should be using blink for movement, not using celer to boost WALKING pace. I use celer on my fade and thats mostly for the perceived speed boost in flight. Better fades are not walker fades, so the less we encourage walkers the better.
Second, a celer skulk is not too much of a nightmare because unlike the fade its very easy to shoot down, and doesn't dish out one hit kills at higher levels.
Its an awful lot of sweeping changes just to make the fade an overgrown skulk. We just need to make blinking easier, and if it was activated by the jump key then people WOULD use it more, and would only need to fastswitch between swipe and meta. Sounds good to me.
So yeah, blink moved to space bar, no more jumping for the fade. Should make things easier for the nublet, you can focus on switching WEAPONS (like the lerk has to) as opposed to switching between weapons and movement.
The AWP...amazing in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing, but fun even if you don't.
The Garrand in DoD, likewise
The skulk, a similar example
The fade...amazing in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing, absolutely useless in anyone elses hands. A waste of time and team resources (despite the individuality of the res management on khaara teams).
I've been really happy to see playtesters as well actually acknolwedging this. The community is a great one here with NS, better than any other game I've known, but the same *will* happen as happened with CS or DoD before the game grows again.
Right now 3.01 is great, it's back on that kind of v2 type level of fun over frustration...but the fade still is not a fun class to use. This was the same with the old AWP and the methods of playing DoD...claiming people need to take time to learn or sort their config out is actually detrimental to this conversation. I've seen people belittle people like Savant and Grendel simply because they're quoted people in different circumstances...but why? There will always be an elite base in NS, clanners and pubbers, and no doubt in the future some will leave because the game has been "ruined" (read: the game is no longer the one they exclusively owned at) same as CS and DoD...but at least in that future NS will be needing more servers to accomodate for more players and a generally more diverse and more fun playing environment. Changing the fade so that every man or woman playing can at least have fun (if not actually be effective) with it is one step closer to that kind of existence.
That's actually a very good idea. Fade movement would be alot harder for skilled players with the lack of jump, and easy for any noob player to figure out. Then we can get a new slot 2 ability...
What if the new slot 2 ability could be something like onos charge, where the fade speed and attack power see a 25% increase while adrenaline gradually reduces. This increase would bring the fades attack power and speed up to what the current level is right now, so that its base speed and attack power would be lower, and the use of extra adrenaline makes them more vulnerable. This would also encourage the use of adrenaline for good players rather than the normal celerity all the time.
So, it could either be like the onos charge and last until adrenaline runs out (which would be bad because blink power is then gone), or for a set period, blinking and attacking takes 40% more energy than normal to get the 25% increase in power...
I'm usually not big on deciding on percentages and stats for features, because the devs will know what's best in that sort of area. Any opinions?
The spacebar works for the lerk because the lerk glides, the fade does no such thing
By the way you can already hotwire blink onto the space bar, it's not hard to do
allow me to continue this popular trend.
I think that fade is only good in a skilled players hands, in a newbies hands they suck and die.
I'm good at this. Now allow me to point out the even more obvious.
If blink worked like it did in 1.0, the fade would be easier to use, and I really liked the whole effect of being able to disappear and no one knowing what direction you went in.
It requires a script that switches to blink, activates it, and switches back, though. It also means that lastinv will take you to blink, rather than metabolize, swipe, or whatever else you would like to switch to. This means that it still isn't as convenient to use as a built-in function, and new players probably aren't going to start off using scripts. So, it isn't the same thing.
It requires a script that switches to blink, activates it, and switches back, though. It also means that lastinv will take you to blink, rather than metabolize, swipe, or whatever else you would like to switch to. This means that it still isn't as convenient to use as a built-in function, and new players probably aren't going to start off using scripts. So, it isn't the same thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you can make a script that remembers your lastinv
bind 2 "kk2a"
bind 3 "kk3a"
bind 4 "kk4a"
alias "kk1a" "kkslot1; bind mouse3 +metab; bind b +para"
alias "kk1b" "kkslot1; bind q kk2a; bind mouse3 +metab; bind mouse2 +para"
alias "kk1c" "kkslot1; bind q kk3a; bind mouse3 +metab; bind mouse2 +para"
alias "kk1d" "kkslot1; bind q kk4a; bind mouse3 +metab; bind mouse2 +para"
alias "kkslot1" "slot1; bind 1 kk1a; bind 2 kk2a; bind 3 kk3a; bind 4 kk4a"
alias "kk2a" "kkslot2; bind q kk1b; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kk2b" "kkslot2; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kk2c" "kkslot2; bind q kk3b; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kk2d" "kkslot2; bind q kk4b; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kkslot2" "slot2; bind 1 kk1b; bind 2 kk2b; bind 3 kk3b; bind 4 kk4b"
alias "kk3a" "kkslot3; bind q kk1c; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kk3b" "kkslot3; bind q kk2c; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kk3c" "kkslot3; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kk3d" "kkslot3; bind q kk4c; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kkslot3" "slot3; bind 1 kk1c; bind 2 kk2c; bind 3 kk3c; bind 4 kk4c"
alias "kk4a" "kkslot4; bind q kk1d; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kk4b" "kkslot4; bind q kk2d; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kk4c" "kkslot4; bind q kk3d; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kk4d" "kkslot4; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kkslot4" "slot4; bind 1 kk1d; bind 2 kk2d; bind 3 kk3d; bind 4 kk4d"
alias "+metab" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab" "-attack;wait;slot1"
alias "+metab2" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab2" "-attack;wait;slot2"
alias "+metab3" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab3" "-attack;wait;slot3"
alias "+metab4" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab4" "-attack;wait;slot4"
alias "+para" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para" "-attack;wait;slot1"
alias "+para2" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para2" "-attack;wait;slot2"
alias "+para3" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para3" "-attack;wait;slot3"
alias "+para4" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para4" "-attack;wait;slot4"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could use that. (Modified for mouse2/3, credits and flames go to NGE)
It is not as effectiv as switching weapons manually, but when beeing lazy.......
I don't know if switching blink to spacebar is a good idea. Once you get used to it, it would be even more powerful than it is now. Blink/Meta/Adren could let you have infinite (or almost infinite) energy, while blinking, but you could still instantly switch to attack and switch back to your infinite energy combo, without any problems.
I don't know if switching blink to spacebar is a good idea. Once you get used to it, it would be even more powerful than it is now. Blink/Meta/Adren could let you have infinite (or almost infinite) energy, while blinking, but you could still instantly switch to attack and switch back to your infinite energy combo, without any problems. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lastinv would be for switching between meta and swipe. That change would make the fade easier to get used to. Like you say, it would become more powerful. To offset this, other parts of the fade can be nerfed, such as lowering the speed or hp of the fade.
only slower or with less hp, therefore making fades suck at higher levels
the only thing that would happen would be more good fades at lower levels of play and then the marines will actually have to learn to aim, but that's too hard for some people, I mean, in the right hands the LMG is deadly! But in the hands of an utter newbie it can't do anything! It's surely unfair. I propose we turn the LMG into some kind of super accurate SMG that fires at twice the rof it does now
bind 2 "kk2a"
bind 3 "kk3a"
bind 4 "kk4a"
alias "kk1a" "kkslot1; bind mouse3 +metab; bind b +para"
alias "kk1b" "kkslot1; bind q kk2a; bind mouse3 +metab; bind mouse2 +para"
alias "kk1c" "kkslot1; bind q kk3a; bind mouse3 +metab; bind mouse2 +para"
alias "kk1d" "kkslot1; bind q kk4a; bind mouse3 +metab; bind mouse2 +para"
alias "kkslot1" "slot1; bind 1 kk1a; bind 2 kk2a; bind 3 kk3a; bind 4 kk4a"
alias "kk2a" "kkslot2; bind q kk1b; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kk2b" "kkslot2; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kk2c" "kkslot2; bind q kk3b; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kk2d" "kkslot2; bind q kk4b; bind mouse3 +metab2; bind mouse2 +para2"
alias "kkslot2" "slot2; bind 1 kk1b; bind 2 kk2b; bind 3 kk3b; bind 4 kk4b"
alias "kk3a" "kkslot3; bind q kk1c; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kk3b" "kkslot3; bind q kk2c; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kk3c" "kkslot3; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kk3d" "kkslot3; bind q kk4c; bind mouse3 +metab3; bind mouse2 +para3"
alias "kkslot3" "slot3; bind 1 kk1c; bind 2 kk2c; bind 3 kk3c; bind 4 kk4c"
alias "kk4a" "kkslot4; bind q kk1d; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kk4b" "kkslot4; bind q kk2d; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kk4c" "kkslot4; bind q kk3d; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kk4d" "kkslot4; bind mouse3 +metab4; bind mouse2 +para4"
alias "kkslot4" "slot4; bind 1 kk1d; bind 2 kk2d; bind 3 kk3d; bind 4 kk4d"
alias "+metab" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab" "-attack;wait;slot1"
alias "+metab2" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab2" "-attack;wait;slot2"
alias "+metab3" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab3" "-attack;wait;slot3"
alias "+metab4" "slot3;wait;+attack"
alias "-metab4" "-attack;wait;slot4"
alias "+para" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para" "-attack;wait;slot1"
alias "+para2" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para2" "-attack;wait;slot2"
alias "+para3" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para3" "-attack;wait;slot3"
alias "+para4" "slot2;wait;+attack"
alias "-para4" "-attack;wait;slot4"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could use that. (Modified for mouse2/3, credits and flames go to NGE)
It is not as effectiv as switching weapons manually, but when beeing lazy....... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is some hackery
allow me to continue this popular trend.
I think that fade is only good in a skilled players hands, in a newbies hands they suck and die.
I'm good at this. Now allow me to point out the even more obvious.
If blink worked like it did in 1.0, the fade would be easier to use, and I really liked the whole effect of being able to disappear and no one knowing what direction you went in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg steve, but that unbalances the game, because the gap between the leet and the poor is way too big! Thats the point nublar!!!!1
That said, I now think that a blink permanently bound to the spacebar like the lerk's flight would be a reasonable compromise. Just make it function like the current blink: little taps are preferable over holding the button down. This way new players don't have to worry about switching between blink and swipe, they can blink in and swipe when they're close, BUT experienced players will still be better fades because they'll be able to conserve energy better than new fades. Increasing the range of swipe would also work wonders increasing the fade's playability for new players.