The New Wol
Cheese
Lork on the Clorf Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24396Members, Constellation
Lork on the Clorf Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24396Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Wall of Lame</div> So what do we have here...
<b>The old WoL:</b>
Basic Setup:
- Gorge builds at least 3 OCs and at least 2 Dcs behind it. After that he could build another 2 OCs at the Top of it.
- Makes usually a 5 OC + 2 DC + teh Gorge
- 50-70 res (fade, hive, perhaps onos in 5 res? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Combat:
- So Marines will charge in and start shooting. They do 250 Damage with their LMGs (per person) and 200 Damage with their pistols.
- The 2 Dcs will heal 20 healthpoints of 3 Chambers every 2 seconds.
- Teh Gorge will heal the OCs at the front too. If he fits between the first and the second row of chambers.
- If Marines manage to jump over the OCs and start shooting you you are kind of ****. 20 Hp healed every 2 Seconds arent enough most of the time.
End of the WoL:
- If the Marines manage to focus their fire at single Chambers and there are more than 3 Marines the classic WoL will most likely go down after a while. Problem here is
a) so many wasted res
b) teh little Fatty with his regeneration is most likely dead by the time the chambers go down or some seconds later because he is simply to slow. (talking about standard gorge here...not about leet combat gorges <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<b>The New WoLs</b>
Basic Setup:
- Gorge Builds 1+ OCs and 1 (yes one is enough) MC.
- OC hidden some meters behind the OC(s) and/or around a corner is much better then directly behind the Ocs. Just make sure you are in Range of the Adren Boost.
- Gorge gets either adren or Celerity. I prefere celerity because the MC Boost should be enough.
Combat:
- Marines attack. Same Damage as before but hopefully without all those nasty Damage Upgrades/Sgs. Why? Because this WoL costs you about 20-30 Res while the other one is 50+ res.
- Gorge has endless Healing because of his adren boost. Means 40 HP of all Chambers healed per Spray
- Much faster Healing Rate
- Gorge is able to help out with spit while he still has enough Adren to Heal.
- 30-90 Damage with spit and 20-80 Damage with 1 OC shoudl be enough to kill one Marine with ease.
- celerity helps you a lot if the Marine(s) jump over your OCs. Try dodging forget about the healing and keep spitting them. Ocs will do the rest. Just make sure the OCs hit the Marine all the time.
End of the WoL:
- If 2+ Marines focus their fire at single Ocs you get into troubles. Just as with the Old WoL.
- Know that your OCs are going down.
- If you see that you cant hold this position any longer try to do as many damage as possible and retreat to the MC.
- Use it to get back to the hive. (if the MCs where hidden quite well you should perhaps retreat earlier and hope that the rines dont find them/it)
- You lost 20-30 res
- Get ready for your next cheap WoL
Big Minus of the new WoL is that it cant defend itself alone. it needs the gorge to protect it. But keep in mind that the old WoLs also died to single marines if they were alone and he had enough Ammo(Support)
Thats it basically. Perhaps common sense but since i see so many MC First games atm i just wanted to add this one. Did i leave something out
<b>The old WoL:</b>
Basic Setup:
- Gorge builds at least 3 OCs and at least 2 Dcs behind it. After that he could build another 2 OCs at the Top of it.
- Makes usually a 5 OC + 2 DC + teh Gorge
- 50-70 res (fade, hive, perhaps onos in 5 res? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Combat:
- So Marines will charge in and start shooting. They do 250 Damage with their LMGs (per person) and 200 Damage with their pistols.
- The 2 Dcs will heal 20 healthpoints of 3 Chambers every 2 seconds.
- Teh Gorge will heal the OCs at the front too. If he fits between the first and the second row of chambers.
- If Marines manage to jump over the OCs and start shooting you you are kind of ****. 20 Hp healed every 2 Seconds arent enough most of the time.
End of the WoL:
- If the Marines manage to focus their fire at single Chambers and there are more than 3 Marines the classic WoL will most likely go down after a while. Problem here is
a) so many wasted res
b) teh little Fatty with his regeneration is most likely dead by the time the chambers go down or some seconds later because he is simply to slow. (talking about standard gorge here...not about leet combat gorges <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<b>The New WoLs</b>
Basic Setup:
- Gorge Builds 1+ OCs and 1 (yes one is enough) MC.
- OC hidden some meters behind the OC(s) and/or around a corner is much better then directly behind the Ocs. Just make sure you are in Range of the Adren Boost.
- Gorge gets either adren or Celerity. I prefere celerity because the MC Boost should be enough.
Combat:
- Marines attack. Same Damage as before but hopefully without all those nasty Damage Upgrades/Sgs. Why? Because this WoL costs you about 20-30 Res while the other one is 50+ res.
- Gorge has endless Healing because of his adren boost. Means 40 HP of all Chambers healed per Spray
- Much faster Healing Rate
- Gorge is able to help out with spit while he still has enough Adren to Heal.
- 30-90 Damage with spit and 20-80 Damage with 1 OC shoudl be enough to kill one Marine with ease.
- celerity helps you a lot if the Marine(s) jump over your OCs. Try dodging forget about the healing and keep spitting them. Ocs will do the rest. Just make sure the OCs hit the Marine all the time.
End of the WoL:
- If 2+ Marines focus their fire at single Ocs you get into troubles. Just as with the Old WoL.
- Know that your OCs are going down.
- If you see that you cant hold this position any longer try to do as many damage as possible and retreat to the MC.
- Use it to get back to the hive. (if the MCs where hidden quite well you should perhaps retreat earlier and hope that the rines dont find them/it)
- You lost 20-30 res
- Get ready for your next cheap WoL
Big Minus of the new WoL is that it cant defend itself alone. it needs the gorge to protect it. But keep in mind that the old WoLs also died to single marines if they were alone and he had enough Ammo(Support)
Thats it basically. Perhaps common sense but since i see so many MC First games atm i just wanted to add this one. Did i leave something out
Comments
1-2 Ocs are enough for 1 Marine if they are combined with a MC.
I would prefer the MC over the second OC.
And 20 res arent that much for 2 Gorges. Its also ok to build 1 Rt+1 OC and later 1 MC.
the thing about the jumping over...
Of course they can! And they ll do that if there is only 1 OC and 1 MC.
BUT: You have Celerity which gives you an enotmous advantage. Especially against low Upgrade Vanilla Marines.
AND: if the Marine is over the OC he should allready have lost about 60hp (2 spits) and 20-40hp (2 Spikes). One more spit to finish him off? No problem i guess...if it is you just keep dodging till the OC hit 2 more times. Just make sure you keep spitting around. DONT switch to healthspray. Just keep spiting while dodging. perhaps you are lucky and hit him.
Havent tested this against an early 3+ Marine rush at the WoL. But i guess it wouldnt hold with 1OC/1MC without Skulk support.
The thing is...Im not saying that the new WoL is the way to win! I just compared it to the old one and showed the advantages of the new one.
i usually play at a 9on9 server. I would never lame something up in a 6on6 game unless i have tons of res. But sometimes on this large server (yo-clan anyone? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) i prefer to do the 1Oc+MC room lockdown version.
The advantage of the MC+1 OC is that you also have no problems with single marines if they allready have upgrades.
If a skulk is nearby (i mean able to be at your place in about 15 seconds) you should be able to hold this room and this Rt for soem time. Even with only 1 MC and 1 OC.
As i wrote this small WoL wont survive forever. But it secures you the room for the next minutes of the game which can be very very usefull.
Please dont think that i am "the hugest fan" of WoLs. I usually do early lerk so i dont have that much to do with them. But it could be interesting for ppl who like to play early Gorge and lame things up. Its just a Tactic for these people or little fattys who d liek to try this at larger servers.
And i just wanted to show that it doesnt need the good old Dcs to do it. I think Mcs are even better for WoLs than Dcs. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> thats what i wanted to point out
I don't have the res for it in bigger servers, but certainly in small servers 2 gorges with some spare time can deny marines safe passage to 1/3 of the map or more.
Just try several games and tell us then about the pros and cons you met during the games <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Supported by a skulk or 2, and you can hold the area against rambos or small fire teams.
Under such stand offs, the gorge can force the marines to either retreat or charge, since it can keep spitting them at range, letting the skulks hide in ambush instead of charging suicidally.
No skulk support though, and it's tough.
did he have Mcs? Or Dcs?
If you manage to jump over his 3 OCs without HA and kill him he...well could have been kind of newb?
Because if i see a Marine charging towrads 3 Ocs trying to jump ove rhtem i ll start spitting at him. Which should bring him doen with the support of the Ocs (60-120 Damage at least) before he manages to ujump over them. And still...if he does i wouldnt show him my back and run. I would keep spitting.
well...so this makes me think he wasnt that good. So...of course it is possible to jump over the WoLs. Fact is that behind them an angry Fatty with Celerity waits for the weakened Marine to finish him off. The Gorge shouldnt run if the marine is alone and weakened by 3 Ocs unless the Rine has either Ha/HMG/Sg+damage3. And at this point of the game...you shouldnt rely on these small WoLs anyways. They are for early-mid game. Not endgame since you ll have a second hive by then (hopefully). And then there are other things to do(bilebomb).
I suggest to sit beside the Oc and wait for the Marine. Spit him as long as he reacts. As soon as he starts shooting you have to decide.
a) he shoots the OC and is in OC Firing Range-->Healspray and hide behind it
b) he shoots at you and is in OC Firing Range -->Healspray and hide but keep a good eye on him. as soon as he makes attempts to jump over the OC you have to have spit selected and start shooting at him while doing the best youc an to dodge him. DONT move out of the Oc Firing range (so not Behind pillars, around corners, etc)
c) he shoots at the OC/You and is NOT in OC Firing range-->spit him. If he starts dodging all you Spits (most likely he ll retreat around a corner) do some healing to your OC if its hurt. After that keep the "Covering Fire" so the marine will take immediate 30 Damage as soon as he looks around the corner again. Just check you adren because if you dont have Adren it ll run out if you use spit for too long (with only 1 MC). It takes much longer to run out but...well it will. So make sure you have enough Adrenaline when he comes out again.
Thats it...just use the OC as Cover. Your spit-Hits are important. The OCs do the rest as soon as the Marine concentrates his fire on you (he ll be in close combta range by that time. otherwise he cant hit you)
Avoid like hell:
If a marine attacks you before the chamber is built. DONT try to trade 50+ Hitpoints to finishing the Chamber. It is USELESS without you. If you die the chamber goes down as well (Marine can take it down with ease due to hiding around a corner and shooting only at a part of the chamber while it cant target him). So make sure you know when its going to be up. If the marine is to near retreat as long as its safe. (celerity bunnyhopping gorges have the same speed as bunnyhopping skulks. So you should be able to flee).
No matter what OC you have with you, if the Marine can aim past his nose, youre dead. Dont believe me? Wanna try it on me? Hit me up with a PM and we can go on my server and see(Ill be home by 3:30PM EST).
And again (hope its the last time now): <b>OF COURSE</b> good players cna take this down. Never said that this WoL is invincible. In fact i alllready wrote about 3 times that it ISNT.
But still its possible to fight many medium players with this. I tried it! It works. Some people just dont want to try it themself. Just try to switch the team for 1-2 rounds and actually TRY this! If you
- do what i describe here
- dont player agaisnt uber leet people
- have a little bit of aim and general knowledge about NS
it should work. But plz...just try it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
oh and:
<b>I am not talking about Clanmatches here! I wont ever use WoLs in a clanmatch in early-midgame. Not even in late game...</b>
I wrote that too about 3 times...
In my last games i used the MCs to escape about 2+ times every round.
(had a score of 7:0 at the end. all spit kills <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<b>edit:</b> soz forgot this...: Yes if 3 marines attack you the Oc ll go down. If fast enough you ll survive. And you lost 10-20 res. It ll happen. No doubt. But if you are lucky you can get some or even many kills before this happens. It really depends on the situation/players.
Even then you had about 40,000 res stc etc.
My WoL:
2ocs apart from eachother, but still able to fire at one target. this means if a rine attacks it, the stray bullets from attacking one will not hit the other. By apart, mean you should be able to fit between them. You can even leave this WoL alone, as its so cheap, and takes longer to kill than a normal WoL, because of the distance between them. No more giving away free res to enemies by dyuing as a gorge, or wasting res building about 50 dcs mcs etc etc.
Well however...Dronefragger!:
As i read in your other post
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i play co all the time, in fact, i get bored by NS_ maps unless its siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so perhaps...and just perhaps...this is the answer to why you dont see many WoLs.
But thx for your tips anyways.
*cough*
A Vanilla MArine will need 4 LMG Clips and 2 Pistol Clips to destroy your "WoL"...and now guess what....he wont take a single damage point while he does that. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(where is that damned eyroll smiley...i need it. aaaaaah ^^)
The main difference between the WoLs is that one uses DCs and the other uses an MC as backup. I'd like to point out problems and benefits on both sides disregardig the number of OCs in the WoL.
Benefits of DCs:
1) Can regenerate itself on its own
2) Can heal the gorge/other players
Problems of DCs:
1) Regenerates OCs VERY slowly
2) Requires 2 or more DCs for a WoL
Benefits of one MC:
1) Gives gorge ability to heal for a long time
2) Escape route for the gorge and other teammates
3) Gives the gorge ability to spit marines for a long time
4) Only one required for a WoL
Problems of one MC:
1) A gorge HAS to be near the WoL at all times
2) Gorge is not healed between attacks
3) Requires a good gorge who hides while healing and can hit the marine when rushed
I hope these points outline the two WoLs pretty well... There are a lot of factors that come into play when deciding on which chamber to use, DC or MC by the OCs. I personally believe that the MC is better in larger games (6v6 or more*). My main consideration is that a WoL with DCs can not be left alone anyway since just one marine can kill them pretty easily. But if you plan on spending 30 res on 3 dcs in one area plus cost of OCs, then it can be sieged or killed with GLs. The new WoL is great especially early on because the MC can be a good upgrade for the aliens while the gorge by the MC can be a healing station for all skulks, lerks and fades giving an alternative to runnign back all the way to the hive. In a central area, this set up can become very useful for these reasons. In small games (5v5 or less*) the DCs become much more useful because the DCs give aliens some extra time to get to the attacked WoL and the OCs will have time between attacks to reheal.
*The teamsize on which each chamber is useful depends on map size, importance of locations on the map, and so on. My point is that DCs in WoL become less useful than MCs when the teamsize increases.
EDIT: I'm talking about regular NS maps where resources are a factor (NOT Siege maps). As a sidenote, if you have LOTS of res you should put MCs throughout the map so aliens can move around quicker (almost infinite leap/fly/blink/charge). In on siegemap, i put lots of MCs through the long corridors so i could charge through corridors quickly to get to the marines. With a "celerity/cara/SoF" onos i could eat an HA, kill some JPs and run back for reheal to the hives -- and all that at INSANE SPEED.
It makes you as good as a DC for healspraying, and also turns you into a spit sniper.
This means I can get Celerity, which allows me to evade most rines. If you've laid your zol out right then marines who get into the room are going to be hit by 3-4 OCs all at once.. all you have to do is avoid the fire.
On the offchance a whole marine train arrives, what I do is just warn my time, and advise them that its a good time to rush MS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe Cheese's argument is about the benefit of the new WoL over the old one while Church is mostly arguing about the use of WoLs overall and points out many problems in in the new WoL without pointing out benefits of the old WoL...
The main difference between the WoLs is that one uses DCs and the other uses an MC as backup. I'd like to point out problems and benefits on both sides disregardig the number of OCs in the WoL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoted for truth <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You have a choice in this situation
A gorge tied up staying in one area for an extended period of time in hopes that a marine might engage him
Or a pretty weak outpost once the gorge gets tired or is needed elsewhere...
Both ways benefit the marines I think..
I played a game some hours ago where i went to cargo (ns_hera) and built 1 OC and 1 MC there. The MC between the crates and the OC right outside of it. With the help of a Skulk we managed to hold this one-of-three-ways out of the base during the entire game. This took the Marines 1 Rt and gave the other 7 aliens the chance to focus at the other Entrances.
Im doing this MC+OC a lot during the last games and...id works quite well. Perhpas this is also becaus ei only use it on a server where more disciplinated players game...so if i tell them that they ll loose their chamber if they dont help me out they ll immediately come.
At some/other servers this tactic is nearly impossible due to the fact that you have no support.