Why No New Aliens Or Frontiersman?

EviL_ErNiE · March 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">just owndering.... plz dont flame</div> I was just wondering after all the updates and after all the suggestions from the community, why hasn't there been any additions to the classes in NS?

For example:

Why no new wepaons?
Why no new abilities?
Why no new alien?
Why no new worlds?
Why no outside levels?

Seems like after all this time the game could expand into something larger.....
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' />

amnesiac · March 2005

Halflife is an old game which means Natural Selection is limited in alot of different ways. I don't even think it's possible to implement new classes/weapons etc. at this point. However, it's been suggested many times in the 'Ideas and Suggestions' forum.

Kenichi · March 2005

Halflife has a weapon limit and a maximum amount of hullsizes. This is a limitation that prevents additions of new weapns and aliens. Aside from that, maybe we don't want to add more. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Faskalia · March 2005

I completely agree.

As well as additional weapons/lifeforms would mean that game would need to be rebalanced from the start again and since they have reached a good state of balance in 3.0 i personally think they wont risk breaking the balance by bringing in a new lifeorm and/or weapon.

But if you want more weapons start using the handgrenade first <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Swiftspear · March 2005

Are there any more questions to this regard? As far as I can tell the first question has been thouroughly answered.

Gillie · March 2005

there should be a scorpion smiley

Zamma · March 2005

No they can add more weapons. HL has exactly 8 weapon slots and they can add more then one to each group meaning more weapons. Looking at the models animations they have animations for moves like slot5 that dont exist. Yes we can add more weapons but why?

Isamil · March 2005

Wrong weapon limit
There is a real limit, I forget what it is, but with all the aliens having 4 weapons and the marine's guns I think its near it.
Besides we don't want more

PRTe · March 2005

Why no new weapons?
weapon limit, too much time to make new animations, models, sounds etc, balance, but there HAS been new stuff added in 3.0 from 2.0 ya know

Why no new abilities?
focus? catalyst? balancing of gameplay, the current game system is up to hive3, therefore we probably sticking to max 4 abilities per alien. no reason for change currently

Why no new alien?
balance, animations, modelling, sounds take too much time etc, no particular need, rather be working on ns2

Why no new worlds?
what you mean? if you maps then there have been new maps.

Why no outside levels?
due to the alien abilities, JP which might cause buggy maps? read this
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90207' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90207</a>

TOmekki · March 2005

its better to maximise the usefulness and balance on the existing features than to just add new ones to make things fair and patches cool. and yes i think this shouldve been realised a year ago but =/

Redford · March 2005

Either engine limitations, or DESIGN limitations.

NS believes firmly in the concept of "Less is more". Can you really think of a new marine weapon that would make sense other then a flamethrower? Really?

Snidely · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gillie @ Mar 18 2005, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> there should be a scorpion smiley </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Can't get it to show anything but a "user posted image", despite being a small smiley. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

It came from <a href='http://www.evilcarrot.com/bbs/hover.gif' target='_blank'>here</a>. Although it'll accuse you of stealing bandwidth. Whatever. :/

gazOzz · March 2005

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Kenichi · March 2005

As i recall the HL weapon limit is 30. Its an egine limit. 5 aliens 4 weapons a peice thats 20 weapons. HMG, LMG, pistol, shotgun, welder, grenade launcher, hand grenade, knife.
Thats 28 right there. Clearly not 4 more slots for another alien so thats instantly out of the question. As for 2 more marine weapons., i refer you to redfords previous post.

Quaunaut · March 2005

HL mods have gone past this "Weapon Limit" ya know, folks. In fact, iirc, Flayra himself about a year ago said the reason for no new weapons was design limitations only, except for the one obvious choice(Flamethrower) which is a engine limitation because the HL engine dies when doing Volumetric Dynamically Lighting Sprites.

Not to mention, I myself can't honestly think of any more marine weapons. Though, I can definately fit a single alien class, that would definately be interesting to play.

Nemesis_Zero · March 2005

Actually, there's one reason most are likely to overlook: Manpower.
NS hasn't really had a dedicated core team modeller for the longest time, which makes it quite difficult to implement features that're inevitably going to be heavy on the visuals (ever wondered why the siege cannon still looks as though it shot projectiles?). This is changing, though, so we might just take a close look at the remaining slots in the future. There aren't many new weapon ideas worth implementing, but there are some.

Snidely · March 2005

I'd prefer it if stuff like cats and hand grenades were made more useful first. No point adding stuff, just to have it sit unused.

I'm still not convinced that there's a niche for a flamethrower, even if volumetric doodah was added perfectly. Upclose damage? Shotguns, now more than ever. Clearing vents? Grenade launchers.

Nemesis_Zero · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Mar 18 2005, 05:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd prefer it if stuff like cats and hand grenades were made more useful first. No point adding stuff, just to have it sit unused. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Of course we should try to make the less used aspects of the game more useful - and 3.0f's changes have in my opinion shown that we are working on this, with sometimes more success than we wished for. But this is really not an either - or question.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm still not convinced that there's a niche for a flamethrower, even if volumetric doodah was added perfectly. Upclose damage? Shotguns, now more than ever. Clearing vents? Grenade launchers.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
There are certain open roles. One use that was cited was an anti-hit&run measure (make the alien burn for a little time to suppress healing), another was area suppression (let planes hit be the FT burn for a set time to effectively cut that path off for smaller aliens). I'm certain other options might be found, as well.

Quaunaut · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Mar 18 2005, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd prefer it if stuff like cats and hand grenades were made more useful first. No point adding stuff, just to have it sit unused.

I'm still not convinced that there's a niche for a flamethrower, even if volumetric doodah was added perfectly. Upclose damage? Shotguns, now more than ever. Clearing vents? Grenade launchers.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Grenade Launcher as a vent Clearer? Hahahahhaa. Any decent lerk/skulk will get out of the way fast enough. Or attack the bastard, or something.

Flamethower would be a good mid-type weapon: A good way to take down structures, AND to get rid of aliens, while at the same time not totally requiring a perfect shot.

Lofung · March 2005

im_lost · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Mar 18 2005, 10:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Flamethower would be a good mid-type weapon: </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
How would a mid-type weapon be incorporated into the game? There's currently shotguns, available 20 seconds into the game, then there's hmg's and gl's that aren't available until the armory is upgraded. If they become available simultaneously, then I imagine one will get used far more than the other (which one depends on exactly what the flamethrower does, and its cost). Otherwise, one of them needs to be based off something besides an advanced armory. I don't have any ideas, but I imagine someone does.

Nemesis_Zero · March 2005

One easy solution would be to tie such weapons to the existence of an arms lab and thus essentially delay it until at least A1 research has begun. Another would be a short research period with relatively high cost but fast research times. As I said, once we have decided on a way, there are options.

Flyingcow · March 2005

marines could get a rocket launcher, if thats easier to make than a flamethrower.

kavasa · March 2005

Shortening the armory upgrade research time would go a long way towards moving the marine mid-game into line with the alien mid-game. As it is, marines have to make a huge investment in that upgrade at around 1:30, delaying weapon upgrades, getting in the way of affording phase tech or mt, etc etc. If the marines could elect to wait until 2:00 or 3:00 to start the armory upgrade, it'd be a huge boon. And we'd probably see more hand grenades, which I think <i>could</i> be worth it except you have to choose between them and the armory upgrade. :/

Sky · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Mar 18 2005, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> marines could get a rocket launcher, if thats easier to make than a flamethrower.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Note that a rocket launcher would require a clear shot in order to hit, meaning the alien is at medium range, barely dodging, and hopefully coming straight at you. Skulks already die with a few clear shots from anything, lerks die to hmgs on a clear shot, gorges....decidedly don't require a rocket launcher to kill <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /> ....and fades will never get hit by the rocket unless he's a bloody moron. That makes the rocket launcher an anti-onos or anti-structure gun.
Anti-onos: do you really thing this is necessary? 30 res worth of hmgs can kill an onos; 60 is overkill. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />
Anti-structure: the gl can do massive damage from around corners, the shotty can do massive damage to structures while at the same time destroying fades and such. There's no need for another anti-structure gun.
Conclusion: no rocket launcher.

Gillie · March 2005

I'm not really sure about the flamethrower limitations, but I've never understood why they don't just make it like a really bright red spore/umbra. It doesn't necessarily have to be lit, or if you really want it to, just make it do the flashlight deal in a bunch of directions or something. Maybe make it so it does flashlight in all directions or something.

And you could make it so you need w1, so you'd have it before hmg's but after shotties; make it so it would envelop marines but not hurt them, so if you have a skulk on the far side of an rt, flamethrower would get him...same as marine in the way of you hitting skulks in a hallway, etc.

im_lost · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gillie @ Mar 18 2005, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm not really sure about the flamethrower limitations, but I've never understood why they don't just make it like a really bright red spore/umbra. It doesn't necessarily have to be lit, or if you really want it to, just make it do the flashlight deal in a bunch of directions or something. Maybe make it so it does flashlight in all directions or something. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
They want the flamethrower to be volumetric, look good, and not kill server/client performance. They can get any two of those, but not all three. That's why it isn't in the game.

Akalamanaia · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 19 2005, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gillie @ Mar 18 2005, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm not really sure about the flamethrower limitations, but I've never understood why they don't just make it like a really bright red spore/umbra. It doesn't necessarily have to be lit, or if you really want it to, just make it do the flashlight deal in a bunch of directions or something. Maybe make it so it does flashlight in all directions or something. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
They want the flamethrower to be volumetric, look good, and not kill server/client performance. They can get any two of those, but not all three. That's why it isn't in the game.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
well thing is they want to use sprites to represent the flames, when a 3D Model could do as good, and more or less better performance side.
and it can be volumetric..i think one HL Mod already done a flamer, with volumetric flames and 3d model for the flame effect..

ikir · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Mar 18 2005, 07:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Either engine limitations, or DESIGN limitations.

NS believes firmly in the concept of "Less is more". Can you really think of a new marine weapon that would make sense other then a flamethrower? Really?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
An elektro weapons suitable to kill higher lifeforms better. marines have elektro upgrade but no a weapons who use this technology.
Or simply a new technology. Like an elektro armor for marines.

Swiftspear · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akalamanaia @ Mar 19 2005, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 19 2005, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gillie @ Mar 18 2005, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm not really sure about the flamethrower limitations, but I've never understood why they don't just make it like a really bright red spore/umbra. It doesn't necessarily have to be lit, or if you really want it to, just make it do the flashlight deal in a bunch of directions or something. Maybe make it so it does flashlight in all directions or something. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
They want the flamethrower to be volumetric, look good, and not kill server/client performance. They can get any two of those, but not all three. That's why it isn't in the game. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
well thing is they want to use sprites to represent the flames, when a 3D Model could do as good, and more or less better performance side.
and it can be volumetric..i think one HL Mod already done a flamer, with volumetric flames and 3d model for the flame effect..  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Really? link?

EviL_ErNiE · March 2005

It just seems to me that the alien life forms once upgraded are alot more powerful than any marine class, which gives them a select advantage, unless the marines use numbers to them down. Onos being one... Onos wit hRedemtion is just insane really (IMO)

I'd like to see some stronger marine classes, and maybe some more powerful marine weapons, the jetpack is nice, makes it easier to bring down a fade or lerk, but still adds no support when bringing down an Onos, unless hes got an HMG and there about 3 or 4 marines shooting at it.

I think some more pwerful mid-range weapons like, a flamethrower or something would be nice, I do have to agree that maybe bringing down the time it takes to upgrade arms labs and stuff could help.

Personaly I'd like to see NS on its own engine, that would allow them to expand all these areas, I'd like to play on some alien worlds and have different classes for each team.

Thanks for all the replys

Why No New Aliens Or Frontiersman?

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