<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 12 2005, 05:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 12 2005, 05:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Mar 12 2005, 02:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Mar 12 2005, 02:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Does anyone share my thoughts? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. A lot of stuff for the marines is too expensive to be worth it (cat packs, for example) and elec'ing nodes falls into this category. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can put Handnodes too, because they are too expensive and time consuming for their effect imo.
Electrification is really good if you are playing in pubs. Usually when I rush elect, I keep my RTs until about around fade time, and by then I have enough res to spam shotties and the fades drop like flies. Elec is useful as hell, but it would be alot better if it were 20 res, even 25.
Edit: if this little tweak was made, my strat would be more effwective. I dont use electircal tf to guard phase, as if you attack a phase as skulk, and someone phases through, the skulk wont sit there, it will jump and hit a mine, or get shot avoiding them. I dont mine RTs as if a skulk simply drops on top of one and stays still, he is safe, and if he hears one come, he jumps off and clear away from mines. One thing we could do if keep the TF electrify the same price, and the RT about 20 res to elec... or have it take out 1/5th or so of every res point it gets to keep itself electrified.
Well, if the skulk drops on top of the RT to avoid the mines, then the mines serve their secondary purpose: To make the skulk expose itself to ranged attack. But, they could just stick to the wall and not touch the floor, but maybe not enough to keep themselves shielded by the RT.
Anyway, it seems to be a consensus between the lot of us:
Electification costs too much to be put into a fluid use without a reliable set of Marines to keep your strat from crashing down.
Let's talk about how parasite should be as strong as the focus onos gore... it's obvious why.. And how the welder should be able to kill a skulk in less than a few seconds, like the glory days......
Electrification, as a whole, needs to be revamped.
(some things will be repeated from other posts, as I have similar views)
1) Cost is too high. 2) Research time is too high. 3) Abilites only a TF or RT can upgrade too.
So, regardless on how to rebalance electricity, the cost should be significantly less per node. Research time should be significantly less per node. Also, I feel that every marine building (except turrets/ip/obs/pg/armory) should be upgradeable to electrification.
As far as res nodes are concerned: Either make Elec less expensive and speed up research time per each node, OR make Elec a one time research @ the TF so that all nodes are automaticaly built with the ability. Each node after would cost more res to drop (20?) and could also have less HtPts. Also, I believe that most of the marine structures should be allowed to upgrade themselves to electrify, it would add a more reliable defense for buildings compared to mines or turrets.
Just my 2 cents. There is alot that could be done on the marine tech tree yet, especially with the current one having limited flexability.
The welder which killed skulks not as effectively as the knife did so it didn't really matter though it was nice for killing buildings albeit not really important even then except for node killings because guns were better for killing hives. Of course now adays you can't weld anything to death and you can only knife people you could've played leapfrog with while reloading. Fun fun eh?
But seriously anyone who should be allowed anywhere near the dev/pt program should already know the pros/cons of electrifacation. And since the devs are the only ones who's opinions matter on this thing and since I would like to be able to assume they know anything truthful in this thread it has no point.
<!--QuoteBegin-SquishyOne+Mar 13 2005, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SquishyOne @ Mar 13 2005, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But seriously anyone who should be allowed anywhere near the dev/pt program should already know the pros/cons of electrifacation. And since the devs are the only ones who's opinions matter on this thing and since I would like to be able to assume they know anything truthful in this thread it has no point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> By that logic, we shouldn't have any conversations in here at all, as the devs/pts have already done it all.
Hey guys.. hear that? You can shut down the boards now, SquishyOne says so. Oughta save you a nice chunk o' bandwidth.
gorge + second hive = 50 res Fade = 50 res or oni = 75 res
so nothing can really beat a elected RT that doesn't cost less then the RT itself did. electing an RT makes it more or less skulk proof unless the skulks have a gorge near by. in which case it will still take them a very long time and in which case you should be able to send a marine over to investigate the incident. Electing nodes really just buys you time. and if time for a marine to run and save the RT isn't worth 30 res then thats cool.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Mar 13 2005, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Mar 13 2005, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Electrification, as a whole, needs to be revamped.
(some things will be repeated from other posts, as I have similar views)
1) Cost is too high. 2) Research time is too high. 3) Abilites only a TF or RT can upgrade too.
So, regardless on how to rebalance electricity, the cost should be significantly less per node. Research time should be significantly less per node. Also, I feel that every marine building (except turrets/ip/obs/pg/armory) should be upgradeable to electrification.
As far as res nodes are concerned: Either make Elec less expensive and speed up research time per each node, OR make Elec a one time research @ the TF so that all nodes are automaticaly built with the ability. Each node after would cost more res to drop (20?) and could also have less HtPts. Also, I believe that most of the marine structures should be allowed to upgrade themselves to electrify, it would add a more reliable defense for buildings compared to mines or turrets.
Just my 2 cents. There is alot that could be done on the marine tech tree yet, especially with the current one having limited flexability. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you're so smart digz, i <3 u.
even if elec nodes were a different type of building that you could build on nodes that cost 30 res, i'd consider strategically placing 30 res rt's instead of 15 res rt's.
something needs to change though...
Avenger x... A 2 hive gorge does not cost 50 res. Its costs 10. If you're going to say it costs 50 res cause the hive costs 40, you should say that it cost 60 res cause someone had to spend 10 res to go gorge to drop the hive.
and then if that gorge goes around dropping elec rt's, more than one, according to your numbers, then that gorge wins. There is no reason to spend 30 res to elec a node. almost never.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By that logic, we shouldn't have any conversations in here at all, as the devs/pts have already done it all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that would be true. If I didn't disagree with the devs all the time and if I didn't realize the pts are more or less a random assortment of ns players.
Just stupid arguements like this that are obvious to anyone with a mediocre amount of skill in commanding ns.
I guess that just means they don't need suggestions from most people <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
how about this, make elec researchable in the armory (30res) and the com can use it at any TF or RT he wants but only at 1 of it.
The com can also change the structure which is electrified but this will cost time (maybe 20s)
exmaple: marines go out of base and get nodes, the com research elec and put it on the first node he got. after a time the marines go to mainhive and build a TF, the com elecs the tf but the resnode has no more elec
i know my english is not so good but i hope you understand my post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Elect is <i>quite</i> good in pubs because fades come more slowly and skulks are the dominant lifeform early on.
Elect is <b>horrible</b> in tourny because there is less firepower due to 5 marines, and cause the Kharaa get res faster.
Reducing the cost of electricity would make it more useful in tourny. But this would make it overpowered in pub.
I support the elect = adrenaline idea. Let electricity target 2 targets for 5 hp damage, and 1 target for additional adrenaline draining. This would make it useful in tourny with fewer players, and still useful in pubs cause 1 skulk can't take down the RT, and 2 will take a while due to the 5 damage. 20 res would be a balanced price.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 13 2005, 04:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 13 2005, 04:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-digz+Mar 13 2005, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Mar 13 2005, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Electrification, as a whole, needs to be revamped.
(some things will be repeated from other posts, as I have similar views)
1) Cost is too high. 2) Research time is too high. 3) Abilites only a TF or RT can upgrade too.
So, regardless on how to rebalance electricity, the cost should be significantly less per node. Research time should be significantly less per node. Also, I feel that every marine building (except turrets/ip/obs/pg/armory) should be upgradeable to electrification.
As far as res nodes are concerned: Either make Elec less expensive and speed up research time per each node, OR make Elec a one time research @ the TF so that all nodes are automaticaly built with the ability. Each node after would cost more res to drop (20?) and could also have less HtPts. Also, I believe that most of the marine structures should be allowed to upgrade themselves to electrify, it would add a more reliable defense for buildings compared to mines or turrets.
Just my 2 cents. There is alot that could be done on the marine tech tree yet, especially with the current one having limited flexability. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you're so smart digz, i <3 u.
even if elec nodes were a different type of building that you could build on nodes that cost 30 res, i'd consider strategically placing 30 res rt's instead of 15 res rt's.
something needs to change though...
Avenger x... A 2 hive gorge does not cost 50 res. Its costs 10. If you're going to say it costs 50 res cause the hive costs 40, you should say that it cost 60 res cause someone had to spend 10 res to go gorge to drop the hive.
and then if that gorge goes around dropping elec rt's, more than one, according to your numbers, then that gorge wins. There is no reason to spend 30 res to elec a node. almost never. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what if the Gorge that DROPPED the hive KILLS the RT? then it would be 50 res wouldn't it? just because you last 30 seconds as gorge before you die doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Electricity is a luxery commodity. if your team goes out early game and caps tons of RTs. then you'll be spread thin and you won't want to lose all the RTs so your commander elecs a few of them to keep lone skulks from taking them down. the idea I guess is that if you have tons of res, you have tons of RTs. and tons of RTs means you need to elec some to kepe lone skulks from taking them. and you say "well what about fades and oni" well why can't an OC? stop a heavy train? its simple its just not how things work. if an onos is chomping down an RT you should send marines to go kill the onos. or while the onos is away from hive you should attack the hive to make it need to come back to protect the hive.
See this is just the problem with talking on these boards. I'm thinking competitive play, you're thinking pub play. You're wrong in everything you say when it comes to a competitive game. In terms of a pub, you're opinions hold a lot more weight.
I would say that if you have the luxery and power to elec all your rt's you should instead be using that res to end the game, because you obviously can, you're just not being aggresive enough. Its much more efficient to send one or two people to recap and use the res you save to push the last hive and win. If you lose all your nodes but kill the hive you win.
...and don't say "OMGzzzz but if you don't kill teh hivezors and you lose all ur rt's then your gonna lose the gamezors nublar!!!!!11" or any variation thereof, cause you'll die from stupid cancer.
the problem with competitive play is that it isn't balanced at all smart one. Electing Nodes is the least of the problems when it comes to smart people playing the game. if your any good at FPS and wanna go pro go play CS or something.
if anything Electing shouldn't even be in the game. its stupid and lame and doesn't really add anything to the gameplay. it didn't use to be in the game and people got by just fine so I don't think its really all that big of a deal. if anything its better to be a luxury and non cost effective then essentail and overpowered wouldn't you say?
in NS. (comp or Pub)
elec = want Armslab = need
thats all there is to it. its a fancy little fun thing for marines to do to RTs that isn't really all that usefull but sometimes get done when they have tons of spare res.
It could repair the RT at a resonable rate similar to OC regen although faster.
Could be an upgrade at the CC (as should protolab rather than neededing adv.armory imho) and would increase the time it takes for 1 skulk to kill an RT significalty (due to the slow bite rate halfway through) but have less effect against 2 skulks or adren skulks.
Would also mean after chasing away as skulk at an RT you don't need to recycle and rebuild it or lug a welder out there.
Could either be free to all RTs once researched, or have a 5-10 res cost for the upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin-Innocuous+Mar 12 2005, 02:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Innocuous @ Mar 12 2005, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if youre a decent comm you shouldnt electrify period.
waste of resources. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats why we are having a discussion on how to FIX electify and make it USEFUL.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 12 2005, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 12 2005, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Mar 12 2005, 05:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Mar 12 2005, 05:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 11 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 11 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Lower damage. This is where balance is crucial. I would like to see the damage timed so that if two skulks were chomping on a node, they would BOTH die to the damage BEFORE the node was killed. (leaving a couple bars left) The idea would be that if a single skulk wanted to take out the node, it would take THREE trips to kill it, which gives ample time for the comm to send out a marine with a welder. Even if two skulks grouped up and went at it, they would still not take it out in one run. It would take 3 skulks, or 2 skulks with a gorge (as they do now) to take out the node. If you need better protection for a node, drop an electrified TF beside it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I still like Grendal's old idea (at least, I think it was Grendal's) - electricity saps energy, not health, and hits two targets. A skulk can still take down an elec'd structure, but it'll take a lot longer, and gives time for marine backup to get there. Adrenaline would be the counter. It'd still decloak alines hit (it would cause 1 damage). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i think it was forlorn who introduced that idea. i could be wrong, though.
i really like it, too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please run a search before ascribing other people to my ideas. Especially if you are going to taint them with "Eau de Folorn".
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 14 2005, 07:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 14 2005, 07:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 12 2005, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 12 2005, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Mar 12 2005, 05:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Mar 12 2005, 05:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 11 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 11 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Lower damage. This is where balance is crucial. I would like to see the damage timed so that if two skulks were chomping on a node, they would BOTH die to the damage BEFORE the node was killed. (leaving a couple bars left) The idea would be that if a single skulk wanted to take out the node, it would take THREE trips to kill it, which gives ample time for the comm to send out a marine with a welder. Even if two skulks grouped up and went at it, they would still not take it out in one run. It would take 3 skulks, or 2 skulks with a gorge (as they do now) to take out the node. If you need better protection for a node, drop an electrified TF beside it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I still like Grendal's old idea (at least, I think it was Grendal's) - electricity saps energy, not health, and hits two targets. A skulk can still take down an elec'd structure, but it'll take a lot longer, and gives time for marine backup to get there. Adrenaline would be the counter. It'd still decloak alines hit (it would cause 1 damage). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i think it was forlorn who introduced that idea. i could be wrong, though.
i really like it, too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please run a search before ascribing other people to my ideas. Especially if you are going to taint them with "Eau de Folorn". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hey, i said i dont know for sure? it was forlorn who i heard it from first. if its your idea then fine, i like it anyways <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Cost 30 because it would be to easy for marins to cap RT and to MAINTAIN them. Electrified RT last more than standart RT. So to prevent mass elec in early games it must cost. It was a probleme in some early version.
-Takes time (30sec) because it gives alien (skulk mostly) a chance to destroy it before the RT upgrades. Marins have to cover it. Remember that alien still have to spank marins in close combat (exept lerk). Sounds not fair play to make it faster to upgrades.
Elec can be useful for locking hives when you have a good alien presure on it. But this can't be a main strategy.
About the 'regen' idea... Hmmm 1 skulk should be able to destroy the RT. And what happen when a gorge attack this kind of RT with an OC spam??? Not really useful for both team. It just get things more static (oc spam etc).
Lower damage of elec: Not fair for the price invested... As a fade can handle this kind of RT easily. It really wouldn't worth the price.
A researsh for directly build electrified RT would have to be long to be balanced. But it'll never be enough quick. -At 3 minutes fade (chubbchubbs) are coming; Its the chubbchubbs!!!!! -At 6 minutes there is a second hive... Gorge... bilebomb... This kind of RT won't last long. Thought i like the idea, i think this won't work.
The real problem with elec as I see it is that it is insanely hard to balance. If marines happen to be dominating a game and they elec, aliens are totally screwed! It's very overpowering. On the other hand, if aliens go sensory, elec becomes a very impotrant tool for maintaining nodes.... but its so expensive along with all sorts of other things you need to counter with sens! Basically, the new sensory is very very expensive to counter (you need armor 1, more obs, electrification to save nodes, maybe motion tracking). Defense can be easily countered by shotguns and weapon upgrades, motion by motion tracking and armor 1!
So to compensate, you could make elec cheaper and less convoluted (what, i need a tf to elec a node, plus research, plus a cost per node?!): now you can actually afford one or two elec'd nodes (with sensory, aliens are often able to take down almost EVERY marine node very quickly!)
But if aliens DON'T happen to go sens, then making elec cheaper would be devastatingly powerful: you'd could not only get the cheap counters to def or motion, but also elec, making the marines unstoppable!
So it's a balance problem. I do think elec should be a lot less complicated. Take away the tf nonsense. Just research and elec time, plus a cost per node. Make it so a decent marine team can afford at least one elec'd node in th early game without jeopardizing other upgrades too much.
One idea would be to make each elec'd node cost more than the last: marines could invest in a single elec'd node, but for a second one, they'd have to pay even more. This would reduce the possibility that marines could elec the whole map, but it would allow them to secure a node here or there in order to stall alien advance a bit without having to split your forces so much to cover and defend every single node you cap.
The reason Elec is expensive is because it is easier for marines to build RT's. Any marine can build an RT, he just has to get there. When you are a alien you have to spend 10 res to gorge and then build a RT. It hurts the aliens a lot more to lose RT's than it does marines. Marine teamwork is the solution to RT defense, not electrification. The time you should electrify is when the RT is too far away for marines to get to it quickly. Also good for protecting a phase gate. The advantage that electrification has is that it allows the com the luxury of not having to babysit RT's and be able to concentrate on something else. Electrification does become useless once there are fades and onos, unless you distract them by attacking their hive. (which is what should be happening at this point) Another stragegy that is rarely used is welding RT's. If a skulk gets your RT down to <50%, most marine teams don't do anything. It either dies or gets recycled. If you recycle you are not getting res from the time it starts to the time it rebuilds. Just Spend 10 res on a welder and send a group to weld the RT and keep the res flowing. Is spending 15 for a new RT better?
Bottom line... IMO... Electrification is 30 res because it encourages the marines to work together. Teamwork is what ns is about. (not electrify everything and build turrets) If you want to electrify, it is going to cost you.
The main problem with electrification isnt the idea itself, its where its used. To have it attached to an RT is useless -- I could cap that RT two more times if its destroyed at the same prices as if I electrified it, and I believe I know which I'd get more res flow from, as well as all of you (I hope). It would have to be one persistant alien otherwise.
Since its not really that great or a viable idea for RTs, why not look at what electrification is used for? I can only really think of one reason: To guard the items <i>around</i> the object, not the object itself electrified.
My solution? Allow the dropping of a building that damages aliens that come within range of it, ala electrification, only the range is slightly larger to help guard buildings by it. The damage would increase as you got closer to the pole, to prevent skulks from killing it themselves, but it would be enough that a fade could blink it, kill the meager exp it has, and then blink out. The pole would of course have a larger build radius than all other buildings, so it cant be so close to a building that a skulk that rushes the building at least three times couldnt take it down. Also, the pole would have a drop limit in the area, similer to the chambers of aliens.
This "pole" could be droppable by commander, or it could be dropped and given to marines who stake it in the ground.
And squishy, please dont come into my thread and start a flame war. Comment on the topic, or dont comment <i>at all.</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Mar 14 2005, 02:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Mar 14 2005, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The main problem with electrification isnt the idea itself, its where its used. To have it attached to an RT is useless -- I could cap that RT two more times if its destroyed at the same prices as if I electrified it, and I believe I know which I'd get more res flow from, as well as all of you (I hope). It would have to be one persistant alien otherwise.
Since its not really that great or a viable idea for RTs, why not look at what electrification is used for? I can only really think of one reason: To guard the items <i>around</i> the object, not the object itself electrified.
My solution? Allow the dropping of a building that damages aliens that come within range of it, ala electrification, only the range is slightly larger to help guard buildings by it. The damage would increase as you got closer to the pole, to prevent skulks from killing it themselves, but it would be enough that a fade could blink it, kill the meager exp it has, and then blink out. The pole would of course have a larger build radius than all other buildings, so it cant be so close to a building that a skulk that rushes the building at least three times couldnt take it down. Also, the pole would have a drop limit in the area, similer to the chambers of aliens.
This "pole" could be droppable by commander, or it could be dropped and given to marines who stake it in the ground.
And squishy, please dont come into my thread and start a flame war. Comment on the topic, or dont comment <i>at all.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean like a turret?
I don't like the pole idea at all. We already have turrents, and tis doesn't seem to be that much different.
Elec is too expensive for precisely the reason you mention: for the price of an elec'd res, I could replace the res with a whole new tower twice, PLUS I'd have to research elec, PLUS to do so I'd have to build a tf even if I wasn't usig tfs in my strats!
How about elec is just removed from the game, but you can drop up to 3 turrets around an RT without a TF? (within a small enough radius of build so only 3 will fit)
... Playing a recent game, two of my marines stepped atop an elected RT and held off 4 skulks an a fade which all attacked simultaniously. 3 of the skulk kills were contributed to the elect. ... just ...
You cannot replace a res node twice for the same cost as electrifying it. Sure, you are spending 45 res either way, but if it is killed and replaced, you don't get res while it isn't up and building. The cost is probably equal from replacing it ONCE, if you react quickly after it goes down.
Someone mentioned that rt's should be welded when they are significantly damaged, rather than left there or recycled/rebuilt. The problem with welding an rt isn't the cost, it's the time required to get the welder to the res node. It's at least 30 seconds to get to the rt, plus another 15 seconds to weld it, and that's assuming the marine starts from base and has no aliens to distract him, and also that it is an rt close to base. It is impractical, especially in pubs, to expect it to happen like that. You could drop an armory, then use it to drop a welder right there, and in some cases it might be worthwhile (or it could result in everyone humping the armory).
Comments
Yes. A lot of stuff for the marines is too expensive to be worth it (cat packs, for example) and elec'ing nodes falls into this category. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can put Handnodes too, because they are too expensive and time consuming for their effect imo.
Edit: if this little tweak was made, my strat would be more effwective. I dont use electircal tf to guard phase, as if you attack a phase as skulk, and someone phases through, the skulk wont sit there, it will jump and hit a mine, or get shot avoiding them. I dont mine RTs as if a skulk simply drops on top of one and stays still, he is safe, and if he hears one come, he jumps off and clear away from mines. One thing we could do if keep the TF electrify the same price, and the RT about 20 res to elec... or have it take out 1/5th or so of every res point it gets to keep itself electrified.
To make the skulk expose itself to ranged attack. But, they could just stick to the wall and not touch the floor, but maybe not enough to keep themselves shielded by the RT.
Anyway, it seems to be a consensus between the lot of us:
Electification costs too much to be put into a fluid use without a reliable set of Marines to keep your strat from crashing down.
(Edit: Spellchecking mostly.)
(some things will be repeated from other posts, as I have similar views)
1) Cost is too high.
2) Research time is too high.
3) Abilites only a TF or RT can upgrade too.
So, regardless on how to rebalance electricity, the cost should be significantly less per node. Research time should be significantly less per node. Also, I feel that every marine building (except turrets/ip/obs/pg/armory) should be upgradeable to electrification.
As far as res nodes are concerned:
Either make Elec less expensive and speed up research time per each node, OR make Elec a one time research @ the TF so that all nodes are automaticaly built with the ability. Each node after would cost more res to drop (20?) and could also have less HtPts. Also, I believe that most of the marine structures should be allowed to upgrade themselves to electrify, it would add a more reliable defense for buildings compared to mines or turrets.
Just my 2 cents. There is alot that could be done on the marine tech tree yet, especially with the current one having limited flexability.
But seriously anyone who should be allowed anywhere near the dev/pt program should already know the pros/cons of electrifacation. And since the devs are the only ones who's opinions matter on this thing and since I would like to be able to assume they know anything truthful in this thread it has no point.
By that logic, we shouldn't have any conversations in here at all, as the devs/pts have already done it all.
Hey guys.. hear that? You can shut down the boards now, SquishyOne says so. Oughta save you a nice chunk o' bandwidth.
elected RT = 45 res and what can beat it?
gorge + second hive = 50 res
Fade = 50 res
or oni = 75 res
so nothing can really beat a elected RT that doesn't cost less then the RT itself did. electing an RT makes it more or less skulk proof unless the skulks have a gorge near by. in which case it will still take them a very long time and in which case you should be able to send a marine over to investigate the incident. Electing nodes really just buys you time. and if time for a marine to run and save the RT isn't worth 30 res then thats cool.
I think elec is fine as it is
(some things will be repeated from other posts, as I have similar views)
1) Cost is too high.
2) Research time is too high.
3) Abilites only a TF or RT can upgrade too.
So, regardless on how to rebalance electricity, the cost should be significantly less per node. Research time should be significantly less per node. Also, I feel that every marine building (except turrets/ip/obs/pg/armory) should be upgradeable to electrification.
As far as res nodes are concerned:
Either make Elec less expensive and speed up research time per each node, OR make Elec a one time research @ the TF so that all nodes are automaticaly built with the ability. Each node after would cost more res to drop (20?) and could also have less HtPts. Also, I believe that most of the marine structures should be allowed to upgrade themselves to electrify, it would add a more reliable defense for buildings compared to mines or turrets.
Just my 2 cents. There is alot that could be done on the marine tech tree yet, especially with the current one having limited flexability. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're so smart digz, i <3 u.
even if elec nodes were a different type of building that you could build on nodes that cost 30 res, i'd consider strategically placing 30 res rt's instead of 15 res rt's.
something needs to change though...
Avenger x... A 2 hive gorge does not cost 50 res. Its costs 10. If you're going to say it costs 50 res cause the hive costs 40, you should say that it cost 60 res cause someone had to spend 10 res to go gorge to drop the hive.
and then if that gorge goes around dropping elec rt's, more than one, according to your numbers, then that gorge wins. There is no reason to spend 30 res to elec a node. almost never.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that would be true. If I didn't disagree with the devs all the time and if I didn't realize the pts are more or less a random assortment of ns players.
Just stupid arguements like this that are obvious to anyone with a mediocre amount of skill in commanding ns.
I guess that just means they don't need suggestions from most people <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The com can also change the structure which is electrified but this will cost time (maybe 20s)
exmaple: marines go out of base and get nodes, the com research elec and put it on the first node he got. after a time the marines go to mainhive and build a TF, the com elecs the tf but the resnode has no more elec
i know my english is not so good but i hope you understand my post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have not build a turret in months, not a single one. And I won plenty
Elect is <b>horrible</b> in tourny because there is less firepower due to 5 marines, and cause the Kharaa get res faster.
Reducing the cost of electricity would make it more useful in tourny.
But this would make it overpowered in pub.
I support the elect = adrenaline idea. Let electricity target 2 targets for 5 hp damage, and 1 target for additional adrenaline draining. This would make it useful in tourny with fewer players, and still useful in pubs cause 1 skulk can't take down the RT, and 2 will take a while due to the 5 damage. 20 res would be a balanced price.
(some things will be repeated from other posts, as I have similar views)
1) Cost is too high.
2) Research time is too high.
3) Abilites only a TF or RT can upgrade too.
So, regardless on how to rebalance electricity, the cost should be significantly less per node. Research time should be significantly less per node. Also, I feel that every marine building (except turrets/ip/obs/pg/armory) should be upgradeable to electrification.
As far as res nodes are concerned:
Either make Elec less expensive and speed up research time per each node, OR make Elec a one time research @ the TF so that all nodes are automaticaly built with the ability. Each node after would cost more res to drop (20?) and could also have less HtPts. Also, I believe that most of the marine structures should be allowed to upgrade themselves to electrify, it would add a more reliable defense for buildings compared to mines or turrets.
Just my 2 cents. There is alot that could be done on the marine tech tree yet, especially with the current one having limited flexability. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're so smart digz, i <3 u.
even if elec nodes were a different type of building that you could build on nodes that cost 30 res, i'd consider strategically placing 30 res rt's instead of 15 res rt's.
something needs to change though...
Avenger x... A 2 hive gorge does not cost 50 res. Its costs 10. If you're going to say it costs 50 res cause the hive costs 40, you should say that it cost 60 res cause someone had to spend 10 res to go gorge to drop the hive.
and then if that gorge goes around dropping elec rt's, more than one, according to your numbers, then that gorge wins. There is no reason to spend 30 res to elec a node. almost never. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what if the Gorge that DROPPED the hive KILLS the RT? then it would be 50 res wouldn't it? just because you last 30 seconds as gorge before you die doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Electricity is a luxery commodity. if your team goes out early game and caps tons of RTs. then you'll be spread thin and you won't want to lose all the RTs so your commander elecs a few of them to keep lone skulks from taking them down. the idea I guess is that if you have tons of res, you have tons of RTs. and tons of RTs means you need to elec some to kepe lone skulks from taking them. and you say "well what about fades and oni" well why can't an OC? stop a heavy train? its simple its just not how things work. if an onos is chomping down an RT you should send marines to go kill the onos. or while the onos is away from hive you should attack the hive to make it need to come back to protect the hive.
I would say that if you have the luxery and power to elec all your rt's you should instead be using that res to end the game, because you obviously can, you're just not being aggresive enough. Its much more efficient to send one or two people to recap and use the res you save to push the last hive and win. If you lose all your nodes but kill the hive you win.
...and don't say "OMGzzzz but if you don't kill teh hivezors and you lose all ur rt's then your gonna lose the gamezors nublar!!!!!11" or any variation thereof, cause you'll die from stupid cancer.
if anything Electing shouldn't even be in the game. its stupid and lame and doesn't really add anything to the gameplay. it didn't use to be in the game and people got by just fine so I don't think its really all that big of a deal. if anything its better to be a luxury and non cost effective then essentail and overpowered wouldn't you say?
in NS. (comp or Pub)
elec = want
Armslab = need
thats all there is to it. its a fancy little fun thing for marines to do to RTs that isn't really all that usefull but sometimes get done when they have tons of spare res.
Comp play existed in NS before electing
It could repair the RT at a resonable rate similar to OC regen although faster.
Could be an upgrade at the CC (as should protolab rather than neededing adv.armory imho) and would increase the time it takes for 1 skulk to kill an RT significalty (due to the slow bite rate halfway through) but have less effect against 2 skulks or adren skulks.
Would also mean after chasing away as skulk at an RT you don't need to recycle and rebuild it or lug a welder out there.
Could either be free to all RTs once researched, or have a 5-10 res cost for the upgrade.
waste of resources. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats why we are having a discussion on how to FIX electify and make it USEFUL.
I still like Grendal's old idea (at least, I think it was Grendal's) - electricity saps energy, not health, and hits two targets. A skulk can still take down an elec'd structure, but it'll take a lot longer, and gives time for marine backup to get there. Adrenaline would be the counter. It'd still decloak alines hit (it would cause 1 damage). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it was forlorn who introduced that idea. i could be wrong, though.
i really like it, too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please run a search before ascribing other people to my ideas. Especially if you are going to taint them with "Eau de Folorn".
I still like Grendal's old idea (at least, I think it was Grendal's) - electricity saps energy, not health, and hits two targets. A skulk can still take down an elec'd structure, but it'll take a lot longer, and gives time for marine backup to get there. Adrenaline would be the counter. It'd still decloak alines hit (it would cause 1 damage). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it was forlorn who introduced that idea. i could be wrong, though.
i really like it, too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please run a search before ascribing other people to my ideas. Especially if you are going to taint them with "Eau de Folorn". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey, i said i dont know for sure? it was forlorn who i heard it from first. if its your idea then fine, i like it anyways <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Cost 30 because it would be to easy for marins to cap RT and to MAINTAIN them. Electrified RT last more than standart RT. So to prevent mass elec in early games it must cost. It was a probleme in some early version.
-Takes time (30sec) because it gives alien (skulk mostly) a chance to destroy it before the RT upgrades. Marins have to cover it. Remember that alien still have to spank marins in close combat (exept lerk). Sounds not fair play to make it faster to upgrades.
Elec can be useful for locking hives when you have a good alien presure on it. But this can't be a main strategy.
About the 'regen' idea... Hmmm 1 skulk should be able to destroy the RT. And what happen when a gorge attack this kind of RT with an OC spam??? Not really useful for both team. It just get things more static (oc spam etc).
Lower damage of elec: Not fair for the price invested... As a fade can handle this kind of RT easily. It really wouldn't worth the price.
A researsh for directly build electrified RT would have to be long to be balanced. But it'll never be enough quick.
-At 3 minutes fade (chubbchubbs) are coming; Its the chubbchubbs!!!!!
-At 6 minutes there is a second hive... Gorge... bilebomb... This kind of RT won't last long. Thought i like the idea, i think this won't work.
So to compensate, you could make elec cheaper and less convoluted (what, i need a tf to elec a node, plus research, plus a cost per node?!): now you can actually afford one or two elec'd nodes (with sensory, aliens are often able to take down almost EVERY marine node very quickly!)
But if aliens DON'T happen to go sens, then making elec cheaper would be devastatingly powerful: you'd could not only get the cheap counters to def or motion, but also elec, making the marines unstoppable!
So it's a balance problem. I do think elec should be a lot less complicated. Take away the tf nonsense. Just research and elec time, plus a cost per node. Make it so a decent marine team can afford at least one elec'd node in th early game without jeopardizing other upgrades too much.
One idea would be to make each elec'd node cost more than the last: marines could invest in a single elec'd node, but for a second one, they'd have to pay even more. This would reduce the possibility that marines could elec the whole map, but it would allow them to secure a node here or there in order to stall alien advance a bit without having to split your forces so much to cover and defend every single node you cap.
Marine teamwork is the solution to RT defense, not electrification. The time you should electrify is when the RT is too far away for marines to get to it quickly. Also good for protecting a phase gate.
The advantage that electrification has is that it allows the com the luxury of not having to babysit RT's and be able to concentrate on something else. Electrification does become useless once there are fades and onos, unless you distract them by attacking their hive. (which is what should be happening at this point)
Another stragegy that is rarely used is welding RT's. If a skulk gets your RT down to <50%, most marine teams don't do anything. It either dies or gets recycled. If you recycle you are not getting res from the time it starts to the time it rebuilds. Just Spend 10 res on a welder and send a group to weld the RT and keep the res flowing. Is spending 15 for a new RT better?
Bottom line... IMO... Electrification is 30 res because it encourages the marines to work together. Teamwork is what ns is about. (not electrify everything and build turrets) If you want to electrify, it is going to cost you.
Since its not really that great or a viable idea for RTs, why not look at what electrification is used for? I can only really think of one reason: To guard the items <i>around</i> the object, not the object itself electrified.
My solution? Allow the dropping of a building that damages aliens that come within range of it, ala electrification, only the range is slightly larger to help guard buildings by it. The damage would increase as you got closer to the pole, to prevent skulks from killing it themselves, but it would be enough that a fade could blink it, kill the meager exp it has, and then blink out. The pole would of course have a larger build radius than all other buildings, so it cant be so close to a building that a skulk that rushes the building at least three times couldnt take it down. Also, the pole would have a drop limit in the area, similer to the chambers of aliens.
This "pole" could be droppable by commander, or it could be dropped and given to marines who stake it in the ground.
And squishy, please dont come into my thread and start a flame war. Comment on the topic, or dont comment <i>at all.</i>
Since its not really that great or a viable idea for RTs, why not look at what electrification is used for? I can only really think of one reason: To guard the items <i>around</i> the object, not the object itself electrified.
My solution? Allow the dropping of a building that damages aliens that come within range of it, ala electrification, only the range is slightly larger to help guard buildings by it. The damage would increase as you got closer to the pole, to prevent skulks from killing it themselves, but it would be enough that a fade could blink it, kill the meager exp it has, and then blink out. The pole would of course have a larger build radius than all other buildings, so it cant be so close to a building that a skulk that rushes the building at least three times couldnt take it down. Also, the pole would have a drop limit in the area, similer to the chambers of aliens.
This "pole" could be droppable by commander, or it could be dropped and given to marines who stake it in the ground.
And squishy, please dont come into my thread and start a flame war. Comment on the topic, or dont comment <i>at all.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean like a turret?
Elec is too expensive for precisely the reason you mention: for the price of an elec'd res, I could replace the res with a whole new tower twice, PLUS I'd have to research elec, PLUS to do so I'd have to build a tf even if I wasn't usig tfs in my strats!
I like the turret idea.
Someone mentioned that rt's should be welded when they are significantly damaged, rather than left there or recycled/rebuilt. The problem with welding an rt isn't the cost, it's the time required to get the welder to the res node. It's at least 30 seconds to get to the rt, plus another 15 seconds to weld it, and that's assuming the marine starts from base and has no aliens to distract him, and also that it is an rt close to base. It is impractical, especially in pubs, to expect it to happen like that. You could drop an armory, then use it to drop a welder right there, and in some cases it might be worthwhile (or it could result in everyone humping the armory).