The problem isn't really silence, it's MT. Throughout the game, the Marines rely on teamwork, which provides them with the brute force to push and gain territory. The Aliens rely on ambushing tactics, which means they have to be able to strike when they're enemy is not fully prepared. MT, on it's own, pretty much eliminates most abilities to ambush. The counter to this is supposedly the Sensory Chamber, which, as many people have said, makes you stop showing up on MT while in it's field of effect. However, in the entire game, this is the only instance where a structure, and not an upgrade or research provided by a structure, is the only real counter. This means that it is only effective to counter when the aliens have plentiful resources, in which case, higher, more direct combat lifeforms should be evolving, and pressing the attack on the marine locations, rather than continuing to set up ambushes on already defended points.
The solution I think would be most effective is rather simple. A player with Silence (maybe should be renamed Stealth?) does not show up on MT, unless they are in range of an observatory, in which case MT functions normally on them, much like cloaked aliens become uncloaked in the area of an obs, or when they have recently been in the area of a scan.
Every upgrade or research - except for MT, SoF, Cloaking, and Silence - works by furthering the teams, or individual's abilities. Cloaking works by denying the target's ability to see them. Silence by denying their ability to hear. SoF, by allowing them to be prepared to face the incoming situation. And all of those fit with the aliens style of ambushes and hit and run attacks. However, MT, doesn't fit with the Marine style of brute power and teamwork. It's sole purpose is to break down enemy strategy and play style. SoF doesnt' run into these problems, because frankly, the marines don't care what the aliens know. They're style is to push in with three or four guys, and crush opposition by force.
Basically Silence should be changed like this (and possibly renamed Stealth): level 1: silent except for attack sounds level 2: completely silent, phases in and out of MT detectablility every 3 seconds or so. level 3: complete silence, blocks MT.
Will this overpower silence? will it be taken much more than cele or adren? no. It would make it a viable upgrade in the mid game as well as in the early where it currently resides, but in late game, most people would likely still prefer celerity or adrenaline. No matter what phase of the game, MT would still be an incredibly powerful upgrade to have, but it allows some players, who want to concentrate on their stealth, to still be able to ambush properly, and it would keep the marines on their toes, so they don't get lazy. It would just mean that silence is still a viable option in the late and mid games, instead of disappearing upon MT.
<!--QuoteBegin-zariuszer0+Mar 12 2005, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zariuszer0 @ Mar 12 2005, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Basically Silence should be changed like this (and possibly renamed Stealth): level 1: silent except for attack hits level 2: completely silent, phases in and out of MT detectablility every 3 seconds or so. level 3: complete silence, blocks MT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Attacks that hit should always make noise. Otherwise you are telling people they have to closely watch their health to see if they suddenly start taking damage.
No, i meant allowing have the actual skulk bite sound...i agree that the damage taken sound should play no matter what, but at first level it wouldn't stop the actual attack's sound from playing. Guess i typed it up wrong. Editing it after this though.
<!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Mar 12 2005, 06:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 12 2005, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-zariuszer0+Mar 12 2005, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zariuszer0 @ Mar 12 2005, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Basically Silence should be changed like this (and possibly renamed Stealth): level 1: silent except for attack hits level 2: completely silent, phases in and out of MT detectablility every 3 seconds or so. level 3: complete silence, blocks MT. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Attacks that hit should always make noise. Otherwise you are telling people they have to closely watch their health to see if they suddenly start taking damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Chambers are supposed to be weak when you only have 1 chamber or 2. Thats why you drop 3. Why would there be an exception for silence? All chambers get stronger as you get to 3. That is the idea of alien chambers. Making a lvl3 upgrade be lvl1 and completely countering a marine upgrade would overpower the alien team incredibly. Then we would see people complaining about how MC is always the first chamber. This would never work. Silence is good enough as it is. Aliens already have MT, and no one is complaining about that. Its called SOF and parasites.
well it doesnt really make sense for silence to show up on motion tracking and cloaking to not show up. i think it should be the other way around. with cloaking, you can still be heard and if your footsteps are heard, motion tracking will indeed detect motion. for silence, it seems that the alien footsteps are so gentle that motion tracking wont be able to detect it. i find this to be more balanced. silence=no motion cloaking=yes motion
You keep forgetting that you are silent and still moving. Motion tracking detects motion. You are invisible with cloaking, therefore it cannot detect it.
yes but you see, when you move with silence you are still moving as well. the feet seems to pound the ground which makes sound and therefore motion tracking detects it.
Thats exactly what I just said, unless you mean cloaking. But does motion tracking detect sounds? No, it detects motion. And if you are invisible it cannot detect you.
<!--QuoteBegin-slipknotkthx+Mar 12 2005, 08:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (slipknotkthx @ Mar 12 2005, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats exactly what I just said, unless you mean cloaking. But does motion tracking detect sounds? No, it detects motion. And if you are invisible it cannot detect you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> motion causes the sound theres nothing to cause the sound in silence
Yes...the reasoning being that MT is done with a sound based system. It catches the reverberations from sound, and computes where it's coming from. With silence, you'd make no sound to be detected. Unless, of course, you were in range of an observatory, which could emit a sonar ping to create reflected sound, thus making Silenced aliens visible on MT in the range of an obs.
Who the heck cares what the explanation for any of this crap is? If you were to make things realistic and follow the storyline the game wouldn't be playable.
First, I think the topic was somewhere along the lines of: Why is Silence weak? Silence is not weak -- until Marines get Motion Tracking, which will provide information on aliens that move above walking speed (and I'm still pretty sure you'll be detected anyway unless you've turned your walking speed down below normal).
So, the problem is not exactly with Silence, but how it relates with the MT upgrade. Either silence should be given some kind of resistance to MT, or MT, as I suggested, should be researched in Three levels, each one providing a degree of improvement and reliability.
As for your logic with Motion Tracking, why it doesn't detect something that's invisible but moves and why it doesn't detect something that's silent but moves ... Wow...
It's called cloaking, not insubstantiation. It doesn't remove your mass or phase you out of existance, it just makes you invisible, but then again, the ability is called cloaking, not invisibility. But nonetheless, you're still able to be shot while fully-cloaked, so you obviously don't phase out. You still move, but .. it's in there for game mechanics. So it makes sense as far as balance is concerned.
I don't exactly see a reason to nerf MT too greatly since most reports of NS 3.0 still say that the Aliens have an edge over the Marines.
I would like to see Silence changed to "Stealth" and it could still be affected by MT even at LV 3, but display incorrect information to the Marines. (Blue circle drags behind you by several yards, allows you to evade detection at walking speed.)
Conclusion: Silence's purpose is nullified by MT. *Marines no longer need to rely on their ears. They can just watch their big map for alien positions* Silence is a powerful start/mid-game upgrade. To preserve Silence's effectiveness, you have to prevent the Marines from acquiring an Observatory. In order to make Silence a viable late-game upgrade, the way MT affects it or .. The way it affects MT has to change.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nao+Mar 12 2005, 07:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nao @ Mar 12 2005, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Conclusion: Silence's purpose is nullified by MT. *Marines no longer need to rely on their ears. They can just watch their big map for alien positions* Silence is a powerful start/mid-game upgrade. To preserve Silence's effectiveness, you have to prevent the Marines from acquiring an Observatory. In order to make Silence a viable late-game upgrade, the way MT affects it or .. The way it affects MT has to change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly what I have been trying to say in the past 6 pages. But I'd have to say that silence is useful in less situations than celerity or adrenaline (I'm not saying it's useless). It's only purpose is ambushing where you have to hide, creep on them AND get the kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chambers are supposed to be weak when you only have 1 chamber or 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that silence is weak at stage 1 or 2. It's that it's USELESS. A loud sound, a small sound, they can still hear both regardless.
Does silence reduce the <i>range</i> that marines can hear you from? If not, then it should. That way you won't be able to hear the bhopping silence skulk with 2 mcs, until he's almost on you. It wouldn't be useless, but there would still be a definate advantage to having 1 or 2 mc silence over nothing and 3 mc silence over 1 or 2 mc silence.
Silence should take away the noises the marine hears when he's getting bitten... I mean if the whole red flashes on his screen and the fact his health and armor are dropping rapidly isn't enough of a sign that something is wrong.... then he deserves to die
You also have to think about skulks chewing structures. I think if all bite noises were removed, a skulk sitting behind an RT chewing and making no sound whatsoever is a bit strong. The marines should be alerted to the fact that their structures die through sound instead of only through the alerts that the commander receives.
No, I think silence is just fine. It's still my favorite early game upgrade, even if the marines rush MT.
People doing the whole combat lerk thing only encourage other people to go combat lerk. Its starting to be a killfrenzy as opposed to umbraing your teammates or using scream in order to help clear out a difficult spot.
Hey, each to their own. I've been experimenting with a cara/celer lerk and all I do is just get kills.
Avenger, not only does that create serious balance issues with structure-killing, but it completely misses the only problem with Silence, which is MT. Silence is a fantastic upgrade when marines don't have MT, and I think most of us can agree that it doesn't need to be any better in that situation. The only problem is that MT makes it 90% worthless; no other alien upgrade is completely shut down for the rest of the game by a permanent marine upgrade. Silent bites aren't going to help the fact that marines can pinpoint the exact location of a silent skulk, both in front of them on their screen and behind them with the minimap, with the aid of MT. The only worthwhile improvement is something that addresses that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Avenger, not only does that create serious balance issues with structure-killing, but it completely misses the only problem with Silence, which is MT. Silence is a fantastic upgrade when marines don't have MT, and I think most of us can agree that it doesn't need to be any better in that situation. The only problem is that MT makes it 90% worthless; no other alien upgrade is completely shut down for the rest of the game by a permanent marine upgrade. Silent bites aren't going to help the fact that marines can pinpoint the exact location of a silent skulk, both in front of them on their screen and behind them with the minimap, with the aid of MT. The only worthwhile improvement is something that addresses that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, and I'd have to add that lower levels of silence is useless which thanks to theclam can easily be solved with this suggestion:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does silence reduce the range that marines can hear you from? If not, then it should. That way you won't be able to hear the bhopping silence skulk with 2 mcs, until he's almost on you. It wouldn't be useless, but there would still be a definate advantage to having 1 or 2 mc silence over nothing and 3 mc silence over 1 or 2 mc silence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
The solution I think would be most effective is rather simple. A player with Silence (maybe should be renamed Stealth?) does not show up on MT, unless they are in range of an observatory, in which case MT functions normally on them, much like cloaked aliens become uncloaked in the area of an obs, or when they have recently been in the area of a scan.
Every upgrade or research - except for MT, SoF, Cloaking, and Silence - works by furthering the teams, or individual's abilities. Cloaking works by denying the target's ability to see them. Silence by denying their ability to hear. SoF, by allowing them to be prepared to face the incoming situation. And all of those fit with the aliens style of ambushes and hit and run attacks. However, MT, doesn't fit with the Marine style of brute power and teamwork. It's sole purpose is to break down enemy strategy and play style. SoF doesnt' run into these problems, because frankly, the marines don't care what the aliens know. They're style is to push in with three or four guys, and crush opposition by force.
Basically Silence should be changed like this (and possibly renamed Stealth):
level 1: silent except for attack sounds
level 2: completely silent, phases in and out of MT detectablility every 3 seconds or so.
level 3: complete silence, blocks MT.
Will this overpower silence? will it be taken much more than cele or adren? no. It would make it a viable upgrade in the mid game as well as in the early where it currently resides, but in late game, most people would likely still prefer celerity or adrenaline. No matter what phase of the game, MT would still be an incredibly powerful upgrade to have, but it allows some players, who want to concentrate on their stealth, to still be able to ambush properly, and it would keep the marines on their toes, so they don't get lazy. It would just mean that silence is still a viable option in the late and mid games, instead of disappearing upon MT.
level 1: silent except for attack hits
level 2: completely silent, phases in and out of MT detectablility every 3 seconds or so.
level 3: complete silence, blocks MT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Attacks that hit should always make noise. Otherwise you are telling people they have to closely watch their health to see if they suddenly start taking damage.
level 1: silent except for attack hits
level 2: completely silent, phases in and out of MT detectablility every 3 seconds or so.
level 3: complete silence, blocks MT. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Attacks that hit should always make noise. Otherwise you are telling people they have to closely watch their health to see if they suddenly start taking damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chambers are supposed to be weak when you only have 1 chamber or 2. Thats why you drop 3. Why would there be an exception for silence? All chambers get stronger as you get to 3. That is the idea of alien chambers. Making a lvl3 upgrade be lvl1 and completely countering a marine upgrade would overpower the alien team incredibly. Then we would see people complaining about how MC is always the first chamber. This would never work. Silence is good enough as it is. Aliens already have MT, and no one is complaining about that. Its called SOF and parasites.
motion causes the sound
theres nothing to cause the sound in silence
Why is Silence weak?
Silence is not weak -- until Marines get Motion Tracking, which will provide information on aliens that move above walking speed (and I'm still pretty sure you'll be detected anyway unless you've turned your walking speed down below normal).
So, the problem is not exactly with Silence, but how it relates with the MT upgrade. Either silence should be given some kind of resistance to MT, or MT, as I suggested, should be researched in Three levels, each one providing a degree of improvement and reliability.
As for your logic with Motion Tracking, why it doesn't detect something that's invisible but moves and why it doesn't detect something that's silent but moves ... Wow...
It's called cloaking, not insubstantiation. It doesn't remove your mass or phase you out of existance, it just makes you invisible, but then again, the ability is called cloaking, not invisibility. But nonetheless, you're still able to be shot while fully-cloaked, so you obviously don't phase out. You still move, but .. it's in there for game mechanics. So it makes sense as far as balance is concerned.
I don't exactly see a reason to nerf MT too greatly since most reports of NS 3.0 still say that the Aliens have an edge over the Marines.
I would like to see Silence changed to "Stealth" and it could still be affected by MT even at LV 3, but display incorrect information to the Marines. (Blue circle drags behind you by several yards, allows you to evade detection at walking speed.)
Conclusion:
Silence's purpose is nullified by MT. *Marines no longer need to rely on their ears. They can just watch their big map for alien positions*
Silence is a powerful start/mid-game upgrade.
To preserve Silence's effectiveness, you have to prevent the Marines from acquiring an Observatory.
In order to make Silence a viable late-game upgrade, the way MT affects it or .. The way it affects MT has to change.
Silence's purpose is nullified by MT. *Marines no longer need to rely on their ears. They can just watch their big map for alien positions*
Silence is a powerful start/mid-game upgrade.
To preserve Silence's effectiveness, you have to prevent the Marines from acquiring an Observatory.
In order to make Silence a viable late-game upgrade, the way MT affects it or .. The way it affects MT has to change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly what I have been trying to say in the past 6 pages. But I'd have to say that silence is useful in less situations than celerity or adrenaline (I'm not saying it's useless). It's only purpose is ambushing where you have to hide, creep on them AND get the kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chambers are supposed to be weak when you only have 1 chamber or 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that silence is weak at stage 1 or 2. It's that it's USELESS. A loud sound, a small sound, they can still hear both regardless.
speaking of clams I'm hungry.... anyways
Silence should take away the noises the marine hears when he's getting bitten... I mean if the whole red flashes on his screen and the fact his health and armor are dropping rapidly isn't enough of a sign that something is wrong.... then he deserves to die
here's how it should work
............... Dying...............Clueless
...................[........................ ]
.................. \/...................... \/
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> ............<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You also have to think about skulks chewing structures. I think if all bite noises were removed, a skulk sitting behind an RT chewing and making no sound whatsoever is a bit strong. The marines should be alerted to the fact that their structures die through sound instead of only through the alerts that the commander receives.
No, I think silence is just fine. It's still my favorite early game upgrade, even if the marines rush MT.
Hey, each to their own. I've been experimenting with a cara/celer lerk and all I do is just get kills.
I agree, and I'd have to add that lower levels of silence is useless which thanks to theclam can easily be solved with this suggestion:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does silence reduce the range that marines can hear you from? If not, then it should. That way you won't be able to hear the bhopping silence skulk with 2 mcs, until he's almost on you. It wouldn't be useless, but there would still be a definate advantage to having 1 or 2 mc silence over nothing and 3 mc silence over 1 or 2 mc silence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->