The Real Problem With Electrify..
Haze
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Its just too darn expensive!</div> I believe, through the wide observation on my part, that electrification is really no good for marines in its current state, because it's just far too expensive! In the early game, as marines, you need all the res you can get. Got to worry about fades, so we're dropping shotguns. If they've got sensory? Well, got to drop an observitory at outposts, possibly extras to scan. The armslab is always upgrading to keep the tech race on your side. Between all this.. where does resources or time for electrification come in?
<i>It doesnt.</i> Electrification would only be used if the marines have a massive abundence of res. Clearly if they can spend thirty res on making sure a resource tower stays secure, then they are <b>rolling</b> in resources.
Most of the time you've got to keep a standard three res nodes secure, including marine start. Now, if we just leave out marine start from being electrified, then thats sixty res that has gone into electrifying these nodes. Sixty res that could have gone into buildings, weapons, upgrades, etc.
I do realize what it finally comes down to is choice, but the choice is already made for you. Electrify is widely useless in early game and middle game. Only in late game is it useful, and only then if the marine team is winning, because if you're losing, you've got onos on your RTs, gorges bile bombing, fades, etc, when electrification is really only a prevention for skulks or lerks from destroying it.
Does anyone share my thoughts?
<i>It doesnt.</i> Electrification would only be used if the marines have a massive abundence of res. Clearly if they can spend thirty res on making sure a resource tower stays secure, then they are <b>rolling</b> in resources.
Most of the time you've got to keep a standard three res nodes secure, including marine start. Now, if we just leave out marine start from being electrified, then thats sixty res that has gone into electrifying these nodes. Sixty res that could have gone into buildings, weapons, upgrades, etc.
I do realize what it finally comes down to is choice, but the choice is already made for you. Electrify is widely useless in early game and middle game. Only in late game is it useful, and only then if the marine team is winning, because if you're losing, you've got onos on your RTs, gorges bile bombing, fades, etc, when electrification is really only a prevention for skulks or lerks from destroying it.
Does anyone share my thoughts?
Comments
Yes. A lot of stuff for the marines is too expensive to be worth it (cat packs, for example) and elec'ing nodes falls into this category.
Electrify is good for securing phase gates in hives and thats about all my clan uses them for, a deterrant for skulks or lerks to jump in and take out our strangle hold on a hive or a double res node. Anything else wide-scale is too expensive IMO
My thoughts?
-No TF needed. Make electrification inherent to the res node and independent of TFs.
-Short research. No more than 5 seconds to activate. Make it something that is quick and easy to use.
-Lower cost. Perhaps 15 res, depending on how it balances out. No lower than 10 though.
-Limited range. The electrification should protect the node ONLY. No more using an electrified node to protect a phase gate. If you want that, then drop a TF and electrify it. Electrified nodes are meant to protect the node, not the area.
-Lower damage. This is where balance is crucial. I would like to see the damage timed so that if two skulks were chomping on a node, they would BOTH die to the damage BEFORE the node was killed. (leaving a couple bars left) The idea would be that if a single skulk wanted to take out the node, it would take THREE trips to kill it, which gives ample time for the comm to send out a marine with a welder. Even if two skulks grouped up and went at it, they would still not take it out in one run. It would take 3 skulks, or 2 skulks with a gorge (as they do now) to take out the node. If you need better protection for a node, drop an electrified TF beside it.
I rarely see electrified nodes used, which tells me that there are issues that need to be resolved.
Regards,
Savant
*sorry bout crap english again.
3 skulks could take a node down in a hurry, and 2 could take it down, intermittantly backing off and waiting on innate regen.
Since this could no longer be used to defend phase gates, (you have turrets for that) drop the cost to 10-15.
as a skulk, its extremely pissin off when you find an rt, then in the middle of biting it, it elec's. as a cornmandz0r, 30 res to permanently repel skulks is fine. and no you do not need to be swimming in res. you can just save up on slow income and elec them.
if its cheaper, then aliens will have NO chance taking down marine rt's. marines will swim in res and they will dominate.
the range is fine; 30 res is alot and more range makes it more worthwile to buy the tech.
Electrifying random tfs keeps skulks away. That's it, that's all, that's everything. They can take them down with bile bomb or higher lifeforms, which forces eihter tech-ups or their main fades away from the frontlines.
Static marine defenses are never supposed to be relied on, ever. The marines need skill to win. That's the way it is and should always be. In any other RTS's defences are seen as active units... but the only active units in NS are the marines themselves. Think about it.
A: We've secured a hive; I drop an rt, elec it, and put a PG right next to it so the skulks can't touch it.
B: We've secured an RT close to their hive early on, assuming we have several others. This way the aliens are starved of res and get a slow start.
All in all, however, I don't see electrifying every single RT as anything more than an indication that you could've ended the game earlier had you not spent that res on electrification. It can make for some interesting games though, but it's not really worth making your team mad at you because you decided to blow 60+ resources on electrification rather than upgrades and beefier weaponry.
So my conclusions on it, in list form:
Electrification is valuable to buff the 'defense' of a PG you wish to keep (if placed near RT/TF) so that your team will be less concerned with smart skulks that like to knock out your buildings.
Electrification for lone RTs is a temporary fix and is very risky. It causes you to be more dependent on your team's ability to keep skulks, gorges and lerks at bay with low to medium tech weaponry. (But if you do take the rather Unorthadox Electrification route, you should spend primarily on Armor and Adv Armory: HMG compensates for the defecit in your Weapon Tech and Armor will compensate for the high possibility of higher lifeforms.)
Just use your judgement. If you know that your marines aren't working well or aiming well, then do not electrify lone RTs as you'll be helping the aliens by keeping your Marines weaker than they should be.
Just.... Use your judgement. Electrifying every RT is more of an insult to the Alien team and while I have seen a mass of skulks turn HA trains back and then come back to win by defeating the Marine Economy since the RTs were not Elect, it's in the Unlikely Category.
Final Word: Only Electrify when it is absolutely necessary.
waste of resources.
I still like Grendal's old idea (at least, I think it was Grendal's) - electricity saps energy, not health, and hits two targets. A skulk can still take down an elec'd structure, but it'll take a lot longer, and gives time for marine backup to get there. Adrenaline would be the counter. It'd still decloak alines hit (it would cause 1 damage).
BUT then the elec costs need to stay where they are now...
I still like Grendal's old idea (at least, I think it was Grendal's) - electricity saps energy, not health, and hits two targets. A skulk can still take down an elec'd structure, but it'll take a lot longer, and gives time for marine backup to get there. Adrenaline would be the counter. It'd still decloak alines hit (it would cause 1 damage). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it was forlorn who introduced that idea. i could be wrong, though.
i really like it, too.
30 res for something that is only effective against a skulk or 2
What would u prefer 1 electric rt for 45 res or 3rt's non-electric for 45 res?
I would go for 3 rt's non-electric tbh!
Same with tf's 1 electric tf or 40 res or 1tf and 3 turrets or 4tf's?
1tf and 3 turrets here probably last longer!
Electric should have a reduced cost down to about 20 res but even then i would still get more rt's and tf's rather than buy electric!
So my conclusion:
Electric should be cheaper about 20 res and should do more damage than it currently does not sure how much damage tho!
Fades swipe up elec RTs good, cats are -still- too expensive, and I prefer using bad language over a hand grenade.
I could hardly see this working unless the aliens arent very good. They should be able to still maintain some of their RTs, get up the second have, have some fades -- hitting and running RTs around the map would make the marines crumble.
edit: all in all, with electrification, what we're looking at is a useless upgrade. It repells skulks, which is only useful for early game, and its far to expensive to see use other than late game, where RTs require guarding by marines with PGs set up intermittingly. I think it should be scrapped all together.
The adrenaline drain would be good - although would make adrenaline and focus counters to it, meaning that DCs would be the only chamber at 1 hive which doesn't help VS elec.
Legionnaireds idea would completely change the current use for electrifying but it will still fulfil the main function, protecting the object. If it was dropped in price a tiny bit and then make it useable for other objects like observatorys, arms labs etc it would be very cool (imo).
Given how little I see electrification used, I think it could probably use a price decrease.
Personally, I'd suggest a dramatic price decrease with a large increase in time to deploy. Meaning if you manage to hold the RT long enough for elect to deploy, you've already earned the cost back plus extra.
In addition, I think I remember a bug or mod where if damage was done to a TF before it electrified, then the electricity wouldn't work right. I think this could be useful to add. Electrification will only be deployed on a structure with no more than one bar of health missing. So if you start applying electricity, and before it's all the way on a skulk manages to get in and take off a bar, it doesn't apply. Ideally, there'd be some sort of indicator visible to both marines and aliens if something was in the process of electrifying.
Then finally, I'd make it so electrification could be researched at the command chair, not the arms lab.
End result: Electrification slows down marine expansion as they have to guard the RT while it's electrifying, because if somebody gets in before it applies, the res spent has just been wasted. Once applied, if it does get taken down, it's not such a big loss to the marines that it nullifies the point of doing it in the first palce.
I can see causing initial damage to at least 1/4 causing it not deploy since that makes more sense in my mind, but would it cause your RT or TF to scrap the upgrade entirely, having costed you to waste resources or merely freeze the upgrade process until it is repaired?
That seems very strict in my mind, even given a price decrease.
I can see that strictness being used in Clan play, where people will definitely stick around the RT until it can fully deploy, but that's far too complex a task for 'Joe Pub'. Don't argue that it's not too complex a task either. I'm sure you've seen plenty of Pubs wherein Start-of-the-game skulks couldn't grasp the intricacies of morphing to gorge, dropping a Res Chamber and morphing back to skulk to keep the economy alive even though there are messages to tell the entire team whether or not a Res node is under attack.
Nerfing Electrical damage while adding adrenaline 'damage' sounds strange to me. I don't usually use or see Electrical damage as more than a deterrent. (Mines are more useful, but electricity is self-sustaining). I generally use it as supplementary defense for a Lockdown Phase Gate. I can definitely see it raising Electification's effectiveness.
Ex: Fade attacks PG by itself, being zapped by the Elect RT. It tries to take it out for too long a time, a bunch of marines phase in and are able to zap the Fade because it's Adrenaline was depeleted and it wasn't able to Blink away.
That's a best-case scenario. Most aliens would just space out their attacks or ask for help.
Summary: I'd like to see a decrease in cost of Electrification. The idea of Electrification's Deploy being interrupted by taking 1/10th damage of its max health seems ridiculously-strict for Pub Server play, but reasonable for Clans due to organisation.
Electrification is not used primarily because of Cost.