Balance Ns First, Co Comes Second.
Haze
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Dont throw one off for the other!</div> NS is a great game, but one of my only worries at the moment is that the team will balance more in favor for CO than in NS, since at the moment CO is not balanced, but NS is almost there. Please, <i>please</i> have classic come first. Once its balanced, CO can have small tweaks made, but just dont ruin one gamemode in favor for another!
... and please dont let this turn into a CO v NS thread.
... and please dont let this turn into a CO v NS thread.
Comments
In my opinion, imbalances is what makes a game serious, as it makes one side work harder to overcome those imbalances, and ultimately come out the victor. Even NS is still imbalanced from the persepective of a new player, as a fresh set of eyes can pick holes in anything really quickly.
If the dev team want to devote more time to the classic mode, then would they have released the combat type? No.
Even so, if a game becomes perfectly balanced, then it becomes like chess. Both players can win, it just rquires one player to make a mistake, and they will lose.
Games are designed to be imbalances, as it dispels the illusion of different reaces at each others throats. It is for that reason that I don't like Marine Vs Marine maps, neither Combat, or Classic types, and will either idle in the RR, or disconnect and find another server to play on. MVM maps are essentially the aforementioned game of chess, you make a wrong choice in a CO level up, and you're screwed. The comm makes a bad choice in an NS game, the team is screwed, even more so than in MVA maps.
Games need to remain imbalances, if not, they're just not fun.
When was the last time you have fun playing Chess?
Take Dawn of War. The game has to be one of the most imbalanced in my collection (save Starcraft). The Space Marines can waltz over anything in the game (I've had 4 squads, fully reinforced, packing 3 rocket launchers, and a heavy bolter annihilate a fully teched up Space Marine team, played by my brother, complete with Dreadnaughts and various other nasties), however, getting them to this level requires a hell of a lot of resources, and patience. The orks are just a rushing team, good for some early stomps, and can even hold their own against the SM's (A single Squiggoth took own 8 dreadnaughts, 5 SM squads, and a Force Commander, before finally getting nailed by some artillery). Even though neither side are balanced, it forces the players to adopt their own strategies for their chosen side. Now, I always whip my brother in any RTS, I think it's now about 90% wins, but even though he's at the disadvantage, then he manages to spin it around and has me on the back foot. Even with the imbalanced races, it is fun to watch an opponent get on the back foot and have to rely on defences to save the day.
In my opinion, in all of a gamer, someone who worked with other gamers, and someone who advises a company on the latest games, and their contents, I would say that the Classic gametype is nigh on perfect, with only some minor gameplay, and interface issues, but NOT balancing issues. FPS games, and most prominently, Alien Vs anything team-based games tend to have a certain thrust-parry-riposte flow to them, especially in clan games.
The races themselves are about as balanced as you could hope for them to be, given the fact that the dev team has done a biography for each of the races involved. If you try and balance them totally, then you would need to break the biographies and even then rewrite them. Aliens are supposed to be quick, and deadly (attacking ones at least), and the Marines would have only got the status that they have attained through superior technology.
Sorry if this is getting a bit boring, but it is a bit of a personal peeve when people throw around the topic of balancing. Try playing an RPG for a hour or so online. Particularly a PvP one. They are not balanced at all, and are highly boring for the new players. NS is a fresh breath for new players, as it facilitates both the starting of a players "career", and the advancement of their specialist skills, be they ranged and leaned towards marines, or melee and leaned at the aliens.
*Edit*
Also, the aliens are designed, or appear to be designed with the adavnced gamer in mind, as they have a specific role to play in the team. Marines are generalised, until give weaponry, and armour types. But aliens, you make a choice as to what part you will play in the team, be it builder, scout,recon ,quick assault, or heavy assault.
While i agree with you that an unbalance can actually add to the fun of a game, your arguments are flawed.
You cannot rely on your opponent making a bad decision if you want to win, thus you need to get a winnable game for either. This is true for all game, otherwise they would be no fun.
Chess is not balanced either, go find a chess database on the web, you will see that the odds are about 37/28 in whites favor.
Your argumentation regarding Dawn of war, is incorrect as well, dawn of war is VERY balanced. Just because your brother sucks at the game does not make it unbalanced. Go check the game ladder, you will see that the win statistics are very very close for each race (neigbourhood of 50%).
Oh, and by the way, if you let the squiggoth kill that many troops, it cant have been on its own, or you did something horriblly wrong. The force commander alone does awesome damage against monster armor. 8 Dreads should kill it outright in CC. Also get some plasma guns for your marines next time, they have tripple the damage output of rockets against squig.
Anyway, I agree with Haze and say NS must be balanced... After all, it's the backbone of the game. Co is like a minigame, but NS is the main feature.
Also the argument with the favour balanced towards White in Chess further accentuates my argument, as even in a game with better odds for one side, the game has still managed to flourish, and Chess is about as evenly balanced as it gets.
Stay with me on this one, this may get messy...
The Combat gametype can be seen as the C&C of the NS world. Im my opinion, all that C&C (especially the early ones) is just about getting the largest force to stomp over the others. Only rarely have I known this to be incorrect. Play any of the C&C games, and you'll find that it is possible to win just by turtling, and garnering the largest meat shield possible, and stomping over the charred remains of a base. CO is just like that. Get the largest (or most advanced) team, and stomp over the others, be it in MVA, or MVM. The victors are mainly the most advanced team, weaponry, or ability wise.
And yes, I do agree with Smood's opinion that Combat is the mini-game of NS. People have been playing NS for it's strategy feel, not for a brainless shooter. If we did it for that, then we'd all be playing Doom3, or worse, Painkiller *shudder*
It depends on your balance definition however. In chess you have the statistical probability of winning with white is about 37% (I'm talking rated games here), ie. 33% better that the 28% you get with black. In NS balance is also about map layout, lightning, even bugs can play a crusial role.
As for RTS games like C&C, if you are playing the computer, then yes, getting a large force is what it is all about. playing humans, however turteling is rarely a viable strategy. (Turteling in DOW is certain DOOOOOM, at least against a competent opponent).
As for DOW favoring spacemarines, well, the eldar is the race that has been nerfed the most in recent patches, and still, the top 5 ranking players (in 1 vs 1) seem convinced that they are the strongest race. If succes is your messuring stick, you'd probably have to agree with them.
Anyway, the Eldar are a race of specialists, just like in the tabletop games.