I think the whole point here is the resource investment... a fade with upgrades (adrenaline, carapace or regen, cloaking, etc) costs about 50 RP's.
a marine in HA with HMG is about 50 RP's..
if one can kil the other roughly half the time, then things are basically balanced (at least that aspect of the game)...
and the whole turret thing? turrets are about area denial. they are designed to keep aliens from running headlong into an area... giving your marines enough time to get to the location of the disturbance...
I've felt that fades are overpowered myself, even when using them. Probably the biggest part of it is the splash damage from acid rockets. If that was taken away, it would probably help a lot. They already have splash damage on bile bombs, why do they need it on acid rockets, too? Sure if you have a guy welding someone in HA, the guy in HA can last a while. But you're assuming that the fade isn't hurting the guy doing the welding. Who's welding him? He'll die very quickly from those acid rockets because of the splash damage.
Okay, if we assume that one HA HMG marine and one upgraded fade will kill each other about half the time, that doesn't mean they're even. Why? Because the fade has the mobility advantage. If things look like they're going bad for him, he can usually get away with no loss, since a quick run should get him to defence chambers where he can recharge. What if things aren't going well for the marine? He doesn't have the option to run, so he has to fight to the death. Why does that matter? Because the fade has a lot easier time of saving his resources than the marine does, which means in general fade versus marine encounters will result in lost resources for the marines, and not for the aliens. And that's not even getting into the fact that the marine team is hurt more by the loss of a marine in HA than the alien team is hurt by the loss of a fade.
Another thing is that when you talk about a marine in HA with HMG and weapon/armor upgrades, you're talking pretty much the top of the marine tech tree, as good as it gets. A fade with acid rockets, carapace, and adreneline is at the middle of the aliens tech tree. Should the middle of the alien tech tree be able to compete so easily with the top of the marine tech tree?
Maybe this is just me but heres how I feel. If you imagine this like a sci-fi movie, what do you see when you picture a single marine and a single alien? I see the lone marine walking down a dark hallway, looking in all directions because he's paranoid, then we see the alien drop down behind him, but he doesn't. Alien screech, he turns, gets ripped apart - lets hope he wasn't important to the plot. A little dramatic, but that's entertaining, and with skulks can happen quite a bit. Ok, next scene : A bunch of marines and a bunch of aliens. I see a group of marines walking together, all watching each other's back because they have to work together to survive. All of a sudden a bunch of aliens appear (Fades, for example) the marines dive behind cover and begin unloading of the aliens. The aliens can't kill any one marine because as soon as they get close the other marines would kill them in the crossfire, and they can't kill from afar because that one marine would just duck back to get repaired/healed while the remaining marines lay down suppressive fire. The aliens have to retreat to heal because they can't win, and the marines advance. (Oh, and if a Fade blinked the other marines would turn and shoot it, he might get one of them though. Blink is hard to do just the way you want it in my experience)
I think the flaw so far in this thread was assuming balanced meant a fully loaded marine would be equal with a fully loaded Fade. I think a lone marine, even HA+HMG is easy to kill, a skulk can do it with the element of surprise. On the other hand, 4 HA+HMG marines, all covering each other with the comm watching could beat 4 loaded Fades. The emphasis of this game is on Teamwork, what difference does it make if ""one HA HMG marine and one upgraded fade will kill each other about half the time"" that's not the point.
Take a deep breath <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> For the most part I think the marines and aliens are evenly matched. Now if you have some people on your team who are new to NS sure you may lose. But if you have people who know how to play this mod then you will see that it is "for the most part" evenly matched.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shadowics+Nov 16 2002, 03:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shadowics @ Nov 16 2002, 03:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, 4 HA+HMG marines, all covering each other with the comm watching could beat 4 loaded Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It should probally be 4 marines and commander vs. 6 fades.
I really don't think it's the fades being overpowered, but it's the marines' nerfing the turrets getting too much. They both made it more expensive and require factory to survive, that makes marine expand at an incredibly slowrate which then makes the aliens get fades very quickly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ilendil[TG]+Nov 16 2002, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ilendil[TG] @ Nov 16 2002, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One guy welds?
I only had the ability to command 4 marines, and if they move around alone, they are sure to die, these marines can't move to a waypoint instantly.
You forgot the fact that acid rocket can splash...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read what you just typed.
'if they move around alone'
And you wonder why you're losing?
I play in small private games, at the very most 5 v 5. In my last game we (the marines) were being charged in our base by 3-hive aliens. We held out long enough to give HA to all 5 of us, HMGs to 3, a GL to one and the last guy on a shotgun. All 5 of us had welders. The shotgunner stayed at based, hopping in and out of command. The 4 of us worked as a single entity, 2 would round a corner, one would cover behind, one would weld constantly, while a constant supply of ammo & HP came in.
Faced with Onos, level 3 Fades and a multitude of offence chambers we beat down two Hives before our base fell and we got picked off.
4 Marines vs 5 aliens at any given time, all the aliens as fully upgraded. We had only level 1 weapons upgrade and level 2 HA.
How did we do it? Cooperation & teamwork.
In a small game environment, aliens inherently have an advantage. BUT, and this is a big BUT, the less marines there are the tighter the teamwork becomes, and the easier it becomes to execute. Nothing can stand up to a cooperating Marine team of HA's with heavy weapons and welders, nothing at all, all the Aliens can do in a case like that is retake the hives after.
The situations you're describing just yell from the rooftop a lack of teamwork. The Fade is a shock trooper, it even says so in the manual. Deal with it as such with teamwork, and you will win.
Damage distributed to armor in NS is halved. Unlike marines, aliens also have damage negation (which starts at 5% with level 0 and increases by 10% increments each armor level).
In order to get how much damage a marine would absorb completely provided that his armor runs out before his health, you would double the armor and add it to the health. A lev 3 HA marine would thus take 290*2 + 100 damage total or 680 damage.
For aliens, you would do the same thing as marines, but would have to account for damage negation also. A level 3 fade will then absorb (150*2 + 200) / .65 or 769.2 damage if his armor runs out first (which it does). The fade is also much faster and much more maneuverable than a HA, so that also increases his health right there. It is also massively easier to get a lev 3 carapace fade than it is to get a level 3 armor HA.
I'm pretty sure aliens have damage negation due to actually testing it out ingame. I also think that this damage negation is totally unintended. If aliens didn't have damage negation, then the lev 3 carapace fade would absorb a much more reasonable 500 damage and wouldn't be so damn hard to kill.
Comments
a marine in HA with HMG is about 50 RP's..
if one can kil the other roughly half the time, then things are basically balanced (at least that aspect of the game)...
and the whole turret thing? turrets are about area denial. they are designed to keep aliens from running headlong into an area... giving your marines enough time to get to the location of the disturbance...
Okay, if we assume that one HA HMG marine and one upgraded fade will kill each other about half the time, that doesn't mean they're even. Why? Because the fade has the mobility advantage. If things look like they're going bad for him, he can usually get away with no loss, since a quick run should get him to defence chambers where he can recharge. What if things aren't going well for the marine? He doesn't have the option to run, so he has to fight to the death. Why does that matter? Because the fade has a lot easier time of saving his resources than the marine does, which means in general fade versus marine encounters will result in lost resources for the marines, and not for the aliens. And that's not even getting into the fact that the marine team is hurt more by the loss of a marine in HA than the alien team is hurt by the loss of a fade.
Another thing is that when you talk about a marine in HA with HMG and weapon/armor upgrades, you're talking pretty much the top of the marine tech tree, as good as it gets. A fade with acid rockets, carapace, and adreneline is at the middle of the aliens tech tree. Should the middle of the alien tech tree be able to compete so easily with the top of the marine tech tree?
Rainman
I think the flaw so far in this thread was assuming balanced meant a fully loaded marine would be equal with a fully loaded Fade. I think a lone marine, even HA+HMG is easy to kill, a skulk can do it with the element of surprise. On the other hand, 4 HA+HMG marines, all covering each other with the comm watching could beat 4 loaded Fades. The emphasis of this game is on Teamwork, what difference does it make if ""one HA HMG marine and one upgraded fade will kill each other about half the time"" that's not the point.
My Thoughts
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It should probally be 4 marines and commander vs. 6 fades.
But this isn't real life, like in the movies.
I only had the ability to command 4 marines, and if they move around alone, they are sure to die, these marines can't move to a waypoint instantly.
You forgot the fact that acid rocket can splash...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read what you just typed.
'if they move around alone'
And you wonder why you're losing?
I play in small private games, at the very most 5 v 5. In my last game we (the marines) were being charged in our base by 3-hive aliens. We held out long enough to give HA to all 5 of us, HMGs to 3, a GL to one and the last guy on a shotgun. All 5 of us had welders. The shotgunner stayed at based, hopping in and out of command. The 4 of us worked as a single entity, 2 would round a corner, one would cover behind, one would weld constantly, while a constant supply of ammo & HP came in.
Faced with Onos, level 3 Fades and a multitude of offence chambers we beat down two Hives before our base fell and we got picked off.
4 Marines vs 5 aliens at any given time, all the aliens as fully upgraded. We had only level 1 weapons upgrade and level 2 HA.
How did we do it? Cooperation & teamwork.
In a small game environment, aliens inherently have an advantage. BUT, and this is a big BUT, the less marines there are the tighter the teamwork becomes, and the easier it becomes to execute. Nothing can stand up to a cooperating Marine team of HA's with heavy weapons and welders, nothing at all, all the Aliens can do in a case like that is retake the hives after.
The situations you're describing just yell from the rooftop a lack of teamwork. The Fade is a shock trooper, it even says so in the manual. Deal with it as such with teamwork, and you will win.
In order to get how much damage a marine would absorb completely provided that his armor runs out before his health, you would double the armor and add it to the health. A lev 3 HA marine would thus take 290*2 + 100 damage total or 680 damage.
For aliens, you would do the same thing as marines, but would have to account for damage negation also. A level 3 fade will then absorb (150*2 + 200) / .65 or 769.2 damage if his armor runs out first (which it does). The fade is also much faster and much more maneuverable than a HA, so that also increases his health right there. It is also massively easier to get a lev 3 carapace fade than it is to get a level 3 armor HA.
I'm pretty sure aliens have damage negation due to actually testing it out ingame. I also think that this damage negation is totally unintended. If aliens didn't have damage negation, then the lev 3 carapace fade would absorb a much more reasonable 500 damage and wouldn't be so damn hard to kill.