<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that it's the skill part of the game that is fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 24 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 24 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that it's the skill part of the game that is fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You make no sense.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 24 2005, 12:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 24 2005, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 24 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 24 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that it's the skill part of the game that is fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You make no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Summed up: I think NS should be focusing on reducing skill gaps for more balanced games, similar to RTS games.
well this is where "is ns essentially a fps or rts?" comes in. it is now (and i think this shouldnt change) an fps, first-person shooter, that has lots of different movement skills (for example) and such to learn, because thats what makes it fun.
also. if the skill gap between the teams is big THEN THE BETTER TEAM OBVIOUSLY WINS. im not gonna start some crappy analogy on football/soccer because i hope u get the point.
gotta dash off to school now, sry if i left some parts a little open.
The thing is right now in ns you always know that the better team is going to win. The only time there are upsets are when someone **** up, or the better team just plays horribly. The only way you can surprise the other team is with some daring strategy that no one will ever use in a match because if one little thing goes wrong it ensures your quick defeat. This leaves the only real upsets that you ever see being base rushes or phase/shotty rushes.
You never/very rarely see sensories used at hive 1 in matches. There's only a couple teams that you ever see using them at hive2. I think obs is the only team that continously use movements at hive1 and there are people that are starting to call that predictable.
Face it this is a game based upon individual skill. How well your team shoots and whether or not you have good fades will pretty much win or lose you games. Complain about scripting all you want but this is the Competitive forum and you're preaching to the wrong people if you seriously think scripting is bad. The bottom line is that Cal allows scripts and we will continue to use them, if we choose to, for as long as they allow.
Any questions you have about scripting can be brought up in the new scripting forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Face it this is a game based upon individual skill. How well your team shoots and whether or not you have good fades will pretty much win or lose you games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true. I <i>really really</i> wanted to use this retarded but innovative strategy I made up for cal week 1, the 0/0 HA rush. We scrimmed and tested it alot, and even when we did everything right and dropped 3 sets of 0/0 HA simultaneous with the appearance of fades, we lost, the delays in upgrades were too much of a disadvantage to overcome. There's very little room for being strategically insane in ns, in the end it comes down to teamwork and personal skill.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 23 2005, 10:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 23 2005, 10:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 24 2005, 12:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 24 2005, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 24 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 24 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 23 2005, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that it's the skill part of the game that is fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You make no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Summed up: I think NS should be focusing on reducing skill gaps for more balanced games, similar to RTS games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Woah woah woah.
Is it me, or is that <i>counter</i>-intuitive? What reason would people have to play the game? So they could get owned by some guy who just downloaded it? No, sorry. If you ask me, we should make the skill gap *bigger*, and force people to stop whining about "OGM larkz aer mo3r p0verzal!", and start gaining some skill. Diminishing the skill gap leaves no reason for competitive play, or even pub play, to even EXIST. What, so we can do the same thing over and over again, it not mattering if we get any better?
The best way to solve the skill gap problem is to solve it yourself by improving on the game. Complaining will do nothing but wear your fingers down.
Conversely, you can play on a server that bans competitive people. Since that is where the bulk of the skill lies, go play on a server thats anti-competitive.
I dunno, I think it would be awesome if a team with a little less individual deathmatching skill but good teamwork could steal a game from a clan with better deathmatching by surprising them with a weird strategy.
It would be awesome for them because then the winning team is the one thats "smarter" not the one that has more experiance shooting down skulks. AKA, they don't have to actaully get good at the game to be good at it.
What they don't realize is that the people that can shoot better will win games because they also have way more strategic experiance. Even if thier little dream world came true.
So people who can shoot aren't smart? also implying that people who can aim don't use teamwork
Also the so called "smarter" people would have to be able to kill just as much.
So the smarter people should win because they use teamwork and have a wierd strategy?
by the way, RTS games aren't all strategy, its micromanagement. You can have the best strategy in the world and still get stomped by someone who has microing skills and inferior tech.
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+Jan 24 2005, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Jan 24 2005, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno, I think it would be awesome if a team with a little less individual deathmatching skill but good teamwork could steal a game from a clan with better deathmatching by surprising them with a weird strategy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They can do that just fine. You just a) can't totally be out of the opposing teams league and b) that strategy you pick has to actually make some sense. dn vs terror last season anyone?
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jan 24 2005, 01:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jan 24 2005, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would that be awesome? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the less skilled team outwits the greatly individually skilled team they should have a chance to win. We're not talking about removing skill, we're talking about things such as reaver-drop for early gatherer-killage which went unnoticed and you died to, or a well executed zergling rush the better player lost to because he wasnt prepared, even though he probably would have won the game had it continued longer.
We're talking about giving an inferior team a ~5% chance of thinking up something that *might* give them the round.
I agree with that reasoning, and I think that element lacks in NS. Most rounds are uninventive and boring untill you get to a really high level with equally skilled teams (a very small chance the game might carry on into a 2-hive vs jp/ha battle if one or both teams make mistakes), or play on a very low level. Or a good team playing vs a bad team on a map that is greatly biased towards one side.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 24 2005, 05:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 24 2005, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jan 24 2005, 01:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jan 24 2005, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would that be awesome? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the less skilled team outwits the greatly individually skilled team they should have a chance to win. We're not talking about removing skill, we're talking about things such as reaver-drop for early gatherer-killage which went unnoticed and you died to, or a well executed zergling rush the better player lost to because he wasnt prepared, even though he probably would have won the game had it continued longer.
We're talking about giving an inferior team a ~5% chance of thinking up something that *might* give them the round.
I agree with that reasoning, and I think that element lacks in NS. Most rounds are uninventive and boring untill you get to a really high level with equally skilled teams (a very small chance the game might carry on into a 2-hive vs jp/ha battle if one or both teams make mistakes), or play on a very low level. Or a good team playing vs a bad team on a map that is greatly biased towards one side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What I've been trying to say before, you do in 1 post, props.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Diminishing the skill gap leaves no reason for competitive play, or even pub play, to even EXIST. What, so we can do the same thing over and over again, it not mattering if we get any better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reducing the skill gap is not focusing on improving just one aspect of the game. This is not strategy. it's about using a multitude of options to gain the best result because each weakness is covered, that's strategy. Look at games such as Starcraft, Warcraft, battles where a person uses the same units will get owned by a person who uses the counter. Why don't you understand a game with people of the same skill levels can still be won by important decisions. Take a look at Starcraft, all units have accuracy of 100% meaning "godly skill", yet games are still won and lost. Why? because of different strategies that counter one another.
You say I should get some skill, but the fact is if I had the skill of the clan people, wouldn't we be in the stage I was talking about, being the same? Competitive play can still exist, there's more to the game than just skill in aiming. Making the right decisions, securing the areas, those can change the game as well. Of course my reference is from the point of view of RTS games, but if NS was indeed a hybrid of both genres, there needs to be strategy, meaning there needs to be more ways to win instead who has the best accuracy. I just don't see how reducing the skill gap, meaning more players on the same level, which creates more games with players of equal skill, is a bad thing.
i thought scripts were put in place to do what you could not do manually at a fast enough pace, such as blink/swipe/blink/metab/swipe/blink combinations. 1 key to do multiple functions could save you milliseconds in having to press multiple keys,and MILLISECONDS ARE PRECIOUS, BELIEVE DAT! On another note, the skill gap is so large due to the laziness of those "just want to play the game when im bored or need entertainment" players and the less-care for becoming well knowledge in how the game is played/won. the gap is up to the players, not the clanners. I see a lot of stacking though. All the vets/clanners/good players get one one team; mostly marines, and leave all the less skilled on the aliens. Just seems like a waste of time when you can determine the outcome of a game before it even starts. That's why i always join the opposing team of the stackers to give the aliens somewhat of a hold off for a couple of minutes. Of course you can kill 312371923 thousand skulks rushing you in wide open hallways, they don't know any better.. it's as if "ambush" never existed in their vocabularies. If there was only a way to promote interest from the less dedicated ones. It's cool to just have fun, but it's also fun to be good doing it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I recently left a clan, to join one that has much cal experience as well as competitive knowledge to further MY skill in aliens and marines. so what do you say terror? LOLLERSKATES j/k, i'm not even near that level of intense uber leetness. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Jan 21 2005, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Jan 21 2005, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-xtremecore+Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xtremecore @ Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, everytime i've played with shoe.. he'll mostly just load up at the armory then go spawncamp the hive. He never "seems" to help build rt's/structures.. or contribute to the "teamplay" part. He has helped me on the game and i thank him for doing so, but it would also be appreciated if he showed that teamwork in pubs as he does in clan matches. If you want to practice shooting up skulks, then play CO. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
p.s. im not talking smack, i'm just posting speculation from what 'I'VE' seen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Smart commanders will always have people who have better aim go engage skulks in squirmishes and have the ones with lesser aiming abilities cap nodes and what not. That's also true in competitive play, we usually send our two best marines out at start to rush to some part of the map, while the three remain at base to build it then start capping res.
Having a good marine standing around building is a waste of his time and skill to the team. Having him go murder skulks, hold important points on the map or kill skulks at their hive is a MUCH better thing to do for the team. It causes the alien to go on the defensive, defending their hive or nodes. This in turn lets your marines have more freedom on the map, which means more res nodes, which means faster tech advancement, which means you win at the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Short version: CW != Pub. Newbie’s whine - Veterans adept! You’re a newbie if you can’t adept pub play style.
Long version: Many competitive players running into troubles because they’re not able to adept pub play style. There are completely different rules between a CW and pub play. You’re worth nothing more than any other player out there on a public server. You won’t gain reputation if you show no team play or the will to do the same duties as the other team members. That’s the way such dynamic groups of humans are working. If you just load up and go out your own way getting frags in the main hive –whatever it may be the best strategy – you’re not anymore a part of the team and you loose reputation. And if you continue playing that way the other player in the team will seeing your actions as offence and your path will be blocked getting back into the group.
You’re shiny clan tag is worth nothing. It’s like in the military even if you’re a commando soldier with your shiny para-badge you have the same duties as any other soldier and you worked hard for your privileges.
You have to adept this because these are fundamental rules of dynamic groups of humans. These rules will probably never change in 1000’s of years.
Scylla: a good team, with reasonable individuals, use every man for what he fits best and is capable of. You cant say it's logical to set a very skilled marine to build the phasegate/rt while the less skilled guard him. Same applies to pressure/capping. You dont set your best marine to be the one capping waste RTs on tanith, when aliens have sat comm. That's a waste, regardless of the strategy the commander is using or if its on public or in a clan war.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Jan 25 2005, 06:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Jan 25 2005, 06:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Jan 21 2005, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Jan 21 2005, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-xtremecore+Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xtremecore @ Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, everytime i've played with shoe.. he'll mostly just load up at the armory then go spawncamp the hive. He never "seems" to help build rt's/structures.. or contribute to the "teamplay" part. He has helped me on the game and i thank him for doing so, but it would also be appreciated if he showed that teamwork in pubs as he does in clan matches. If you want to practice shooting up skulks, then play CO. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
p.s. im not talking smack, i'm just posting speculation from what 'I'VE' seen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Smart commanders will always have people who have better aim go engage skulks in squirmishes and have the ones with lesser aiming abilities cap nodes and what not. That's also true in competitive play, we usually send our two best marines out at start to rush to some part of the map, while the three remain at base to build it then start capping res.
Having a good marine standing around building is a waste of his time and skill to the team. Having him go murder skulks, hold important points on the map or kill skulks at their hive is a MUCH better thing to do for the team. It causes the alien to go on the defensive, defending their hive or nodes. This in turn lets your marines have more freedom on the map, which means more res nodes, which means faster tech advancement, which means you win at the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Short version: CW != Pub. Newbie’s whine - Veterans adept! You’re a newbie if you can’t adept pub play style.
Long version: Many competitive players running into troubles because they’re not able to adept pub play style. There are completely different rules between a CW and pub play. You’re worth nothing more than any other player out there on a public server. You won’t gain reputation if you show no team play or the will to do the same duties as the other team members. That’s the way such dynamic groups of humans are working. If you just load up and go out your own way getting frags in the main hive –whatever it may be the best strategy – you’re not anymore a part of the team and you loose reputation. And if you continue playing that way the other player in the team will seeing your actions as offence and your path will be blocked getting back into the group.
You’re shiny clan tag is worth nothing. It’s like in the military even if you’re a commando soldier with your shiny para-badge you have the same duties as any other soldier and you worked hard for your privileges.
You have to adept this because these are fundamental rules of dynamic groups of humans. These rules will probably never change in 1000’s of years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well, i believe any clanner/good player would be a better asset to the "pub newbie" team if they furtherd their team "as" a team than furthing their ratio. to rush into the hive alone kill maybe 1 - 2 skulks then die.. i'm not sure what you've done for your team besides that little res boost and keeping 1 - 2 skulks fom running around for a couple of seconds, but then once you die.. you're now sent all the way back to base actually decreasing the expansion, giving the aliens that opening to keep you held up in base or farther away from theirs. Or perhaps while you're in their hive.. the skulks already lerking outside hit your base and munch it all up. That of course is depended on the eye of the commander. Worst case scenario would be one marine camping two skulks why the other 3 or 4 hit base and either force a relocation to one of the already locked down hives which wouldn't last long depending on the fades/lerks on the field as well as their ability or <b>GAME</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 25 2005, 06:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 06:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scylla: a good team, with reasonable individuals, use every man for what he fits best and is capable of. You cant say it's logical to set a very skilled marine to build the phasegate/rt while the less skilled guard him. Same applies to pressure/capping. You dont set your best marine to be the one capping waste RTs on tanith, when aliens have sat comm. That's a waste, regardless of the strategy the commander is using or if its on public or in a clan war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> try sending each "good" marine seperately throughout the map, see what happens. I don't understand why if you see one marine building an rt, you can't go and help him rather than just passing him to go rambo off.. Speed is an absolute necessity, if you both participated in building that rt, it would build much quicker and then you'd have two marines that could rambo off twice as many xenoforms and have twice the chance of completing their set objective in a more efficient manner.
also, a skilled marine can watch as well as build at the same time. So you're saying that if a good marine is near waste.. you'd have a less-good marine walk all the way from the other side of the map to grab that rt? :>
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 25 2005, 06:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 06:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scylla: a good team, with reasonable individuals, use every man for what he fits best and is capable of. You cant say it's logical to set a very skilled marine to build the phasegate/rt while the less skilled guard him. Same applies to pressure/capping. You dont set your best marine to be the one capping waste RTs on tanith, when aliens have sat comm. That's a waste, regardless of the strategy the commander is using or if its on public or in a clan war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even as you maybe right - but there IS this social factor. Besides pubbing on other games in Natural Selection it’s a much greater factor. While in Counter Strike you can do your “one man show” and nobody cares in Natural Selection it’s important to act as team. That includes also sometimes little scarifies for your team even if it’s not optimal.
While in a professional soccer team everyone has its role, in a group of casual soccer players the roles get also determined by social factors.
Everyone wants to be the forward.
You have to work for your privilege to be the forward – same as in the casual soccer group and on a Natural Selection public server. Skill is a plus but you have to be part of the team first and have a good reputation if you want to get chosen as forward. Sure you can play forward without being chosen for it but don’t think the others will like the hole in the defence. Surly it’s not all the same between the casual soccer group and a Natural Selection public server but there are many similarities.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Jan 25 2005, 08:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Jan 25 2005, 08:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 25 2005, 06:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 06:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scylla: a good team, with reasonable individuals, use every man for what he fits best and is capable of. You cant say it's logical to set a very skilled marine to build the phasegate/rt while the less skilled guard him. Same applies to pressure/capping. You dont set your best marine to be the one capping waste RTs on tanith, when aliens have sat comm. That's a waste, regardless of the strategy the commander is using or if its on public or in a clan war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even as you maybe right - but there IS this social factor. Besides pubbing on other games in Natural Selection it’s a much greater factor. While in Counter Strike you can do your “one man show” and nobody cares in Natural Selection it’s important to act as team. That includes also sometimes little scarifies for your team even if it’s not optimal.
While in a professional soccer team everyone has its role, in a group of casual soccer players the roles get also determined by social factors.
Everyone wants to be the forward.
You have to work for your privilege to be the forward – same as in the casual soccer group and on a Natural Selection public server. Skill is a plus but you have to be part of the team first and have a good reputation if you want to get chosen as forward. Sure you can play forward without being chosen for it but don’t think the others will like the hole in the defence. Surly it’s not all the same between the casual soccer group and a Natural Selection public server but there are many similarities. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we can all agree that assigning roles because of social status or family belonging is stupid, and in fact forbidden by law in most countries if we want to draw that parallell as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 25 2005, 08:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 08:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I'm saying that the good marine shouldnt be sent to waste or expected to go there in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but why? you figure, if the marines are trying to lock down a hive.. a horde of skulks are going to rush it, and if you have the "less-skilled" marine there, you've wasted res and time.
a group of marines will dominate no matter what way you slice it, you dont know if there's 1 or even 5 skulks rushing to your location. 3 or 4 good marines in one location is much better than just one.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 25 2005, 08:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 08:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think we can all agree that assigning roles because of social status or family belonging is stupid, and in fact forbidden by law in most countries if we want to draw that parallell as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Beside that your parable lack in similarities to a Natural Selection public server and I don’t mean the social status you were given by birth but the social skills in drawing people to your side and forming some kind of alliance. In a group of people you never chose your role alone. The roles get determined by social processes.
it seems your social role is based on the effectiveness of your killing,
IE: the commander seems to give that first heavy or "big gun" to the MVP of the team, or sometimes ONLY to the marines with the highest ratio.
It boggles my mind sometimes that a commander thinks that one person with a shotgun while all the others sport an lmg is some kind of advantage. whilist if all of them had shotguns, even the lamest of the team could **** up a kill or two with a simple spammage of meds <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Same with aliens, just because you're a good fade or lerk.. why does that exempt you from dropping an rt or hive once in a while and let someone else go lerk or fade for once? skill is based on practice, if those who are less-skilled never get to exercise those skills, then they shall stay in their "less-skilled" level and never exceed.
Those who pair up with their teamates become better known than those who rambo off and keep to themselves most of the time. sometimes they are not where they are needed, and it screws up the rhythm and puts a downer on the team, perhaps puts a grudge on you from the team whining "where were you?!"
When I comm on Pubs there is one extrmely important thing clanners do FAR BETTER than anyone else: They are at the place I want the next Phase Gate before I can tell it to my team...
It is great to have <insert fancy clantag here> member at building second hive, holding his own while he gets a PG up. This singel guy really makes the difference.
The rest of the pub team has an important function too: They annoy the aliens in odd places or love to take double, just because you are "supposed" to take dbl.
But in the end..the situational awareness (Part of the skill most clanners should have) of a single player helps me as a comm to win a game.
Skill is not only "aim, blink, and fast weaponswitch" but the ability to predict the next move of your enemy, second guess an ambushing skulks thoughts and camping in the right places.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Jan 25 2005, 06:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Jan 25 2005, 06:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Jan 21 2005, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Jan 21 2005, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-xtremecore+Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xtremecore @ Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, everytime i've played with shoe.. he'll mostly just load up at the armory then go spawncamp the hive. He never "seems" to help build rt's/structures.. or contribute to the "teamplay" part. He has helped me on the game and i thank him for doing so, but it would also be appreciated if he showed that teamwork in pubs as he does in clan matches. If you want to practice shooting up skulks, then play CO. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
p.s. im not talking smack, i'm just posting speculation from what 'I'VE' seen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Smart commanders will always have people who have better aim go engage skulks in squirmishes and have the ones with lesser aiming abilities cap nodes and what not. That's also true in competitive play, we usually send our two best marines out at start to rush to some part of the map, while the three remain at base to build it then start capping res.
Having a good marine standing around building is a waste of his time and skill to the team. Having him go murder skulks, hold important points on the map or kill skulks at their hive is a MUCH better thing to do for the team. It causes the alien to go on the defensive, defending their hive or nodes. This in turn lets your marines have more freedom on the map, which means more res nodes, which means faster tech advancement, which means you win at the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Short version: CW != Pub. Newbie’s whine - Veterans adept! You’re a newbie if you can’t adept pub play style.
Long version: Many competitive players running into troubles because they’re not able to adept pub play style. There are completely different rules between a CW and pub play. You’re worth nothing more than any other player out there on a public server. You won’t gain reputation if you show no team play or the will to do the same duties as the other team members. That’s the way such dynamic groups of humans are working. If you just load up and go out your own way getting frags in the main hive –whatever it may be the best strategy – you’re not anymore a part of the team and you loose reputation. And if you continue playing that way the other player in the team will seeing your actions as offence and your path will be blocked getting back into the group.
You’re shiny clan tag is worth nothing. It’s like in the military even if you’re a commando soldier with your shiny para-badge you have the same duties as any other soldier and you worked hard for your privileges.
You have to adept this because these are fundamental rules of dynamic groups of humans. These rules will probably never change in 1000’s of years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you say you're worth nothing for being a better skilled player on a team, then you must be a pretty crappy commander. All good commanders, whether a pubber or a clanner, knows a good marine within the first couple minutes of the game. They will like you say adapt, they will usually send the better marines to key junctions, they will usually gear up good marines because they believe that those marines will conserve the res better, by not dying and wasting res. Good marines as you say must adapt, they do. They take what they can get from the commander and make the best of it, if the commander doesn't like dropping meds, the good marine adapt, playing more carefully.
However, good marines don't adapt for the worse just because they're in pub play, that would be pure stupidity. It's like saying, "Oh I'm in a pub now, let me use bad strategies to help my team lose." Good marines will continue to try to hold known choke points, hamper the alien team's resources, etc. That's a key strategy in all of NS, telling a good player, clanner or not, to adapt by doing stupid stuff like locking down one hive while letting the aliens rampage through the other half of the map goes against good thinking. Same as building base turrets, why would you 'adapt' by wasting precious early game minutes building turrets in base while you can be out contesting key nodes with aliens, you don't adapt to a sure-lose strategy. You dont' adapt down a level, you always adapt up to try to win.
Comments
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill.
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make no sense.
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Summed up: I think NS should be focusing on reducing skill gaps for more balanced games, similar to RTS games.
also. if the skill gap between the teams is big THEN THE BETTER TEAM OBVIOUSLY WINS. im not gonna start some crappy analogy on football/soccer because i hope u get the point.
gotta dash off to school now, sry if i left some parts a little open.
You never/very rarely see sensories used at hive 1 in matches. There's only a couple teams that you ever see using them at hive2. I think obs is the only team that continously use movements at hive1 and there are people that are starting to call that predictable.
Face it this is a game based upon individual skill. How well your team shoots and whether or not you have good fades will pretty much win or lose you games. Complain about scripting all you want but this is the Competitive forum and you're preaching to the wrong people if you seriously think scripting is bad. The bottom line is that Cal allows scripts and we will continue to use them, if we choose to, for as long as they allow.
Any questions you have about scripting can be brought up in the new scripting forum.
It's true. I <i>really really</i> wanted to use this retarded but innovative strategy I made up for cal week 1, the 0/0 HA rush. We scrimmed and tested it alot, and even when we did everything right and dropped 3 sets of 0/0 HA simultaneous with the appearance of fades, we lost, the delays in upgrades were too much of a disadvantage to overcome. There's very little room for being strategically insane in ns, in the end it comes down to teamwork and personal skill.
Yea, because we all know how much being spawn camped is.
Skill, if not more than anything is what imbalances the game. In my opinion, the best game is where teams of EQUAL skill face off. That way the game is neither too easy, nor too hard. What I am trying to imply is that we focus on making skill levels of both teams nearly the same level. Though we can't modify players individually, we can modify the tools that they use. I'm sure there are plenty of talented players, but for each of them, multiple beginners are playing. Sometimes these "talented" players just don't belong in some servers. I'm not saying kick the pros, but when you do have an equal team (skill wise), and a skilled player joins, the game is tilted in a significant way, destroying the once balanced game that was. Of course the effect is lessened when a not-as-skilled player joins.
Manta, I do realize that this mod is a hybrid of RTS and FPS elements, that's why it's my most played game. Right now, the game is poised more towards the FPS elements, meaning skill can definitely win the game. Again, I suggest we reduce the skill gap because if anything, teams that fight teams of equal skill generally gives the best experience. I just think somethings wrong when you have games that have one team totally annhilate the other. There are so many benefits of having a game where players that are mostly at the same level of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Summed up: I think NS should be focusing on reducing skill gaps for more balanced games, similar to RTS games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah woah woah.
Is it me, or is that <i>counter</i>-intuitive? What reason would people have to play the game? So they could get owned by some guy who just downloaded it? No, sorry. If you ask me, we should make the skill gap *bigger*, and force people to stop whining about "OGM larkz aer mo3r p0verzal!", and start gaining some skill. Diminishing the skill gap leaves no reason for competitive play, or even pub play, to even EXIST. What, so we can do the same thing over and over again, it not mattering if we get any better?
Conversely, you can play on a server that bans competitive people. Since that is where the bulk of the skill lies, go play on a server thats anti-competitive.
What they don't realize is that the people that can shoot better will win games because they also have way more strategic experiance. Even if thier little dream world came true.
Also the so called "smarter" people would have to be able to kill just as much.
So the smarter people should win because they use teamwork and have a wierd strategy?
by the way, RTS games aren't all strategy, its micromanagement. You can have the best strategy in the world and still get stomped by someone who has microing skills and inferior tech.
Nice try though.
They can do that just fine. You just a) can't totally be out of the opposing teams league and b) that strategy you pick has to actually make some sense. dn vs terror last season anyone?
If the less skilled team outwits the greatly individually skilled team they should have a chance to win. We're not talking about removing skill, we're talking about things such as reaver-drop for early gatherer-killage which went unnoticed and you died to, or a well executed zergling rush the better player lost to because he wasnt prepared, even though he probably would have won the game had it continued longer.
We're talking about giving an inferior team a ~5% chance of thinking up something that *might* give them the round.
I agree with that reasoning, and I think that element lacks in NS. Most rounds are uninventive and boring untill you get to a really high level with equally skilled teams (a very small chance the game might carry on into a 2-hive vs jp/ha battle if one or both teams make mistakes), or play on a very low level. Or a good team playing vs a bad team on a map that is greatly biased towards one side.
If the less skilled team outwits the greatly individually skilled team they should have a chance to win. We're not talking about removing skill, we're talking about things such as reaver-drop for early gatherer-killage which went unnoticed and you died to, or a well executed zergling rush the better player lost to because he wasnt prepared, even though he probably would have won the game had it continued longer.
We're talking about giving an inferior team a ~5% chance of thinking up something that *might* give them the round.
I agree with that reasoning, and I think that element lacks in NS. Most rounds are uninventive and boring untill you get to a really high level with equally skilled teams (a very small chance the game might carry on into a 2-hive vs jp/ha battle if one or both teams make mistakes), or play on a very low level. Or a good team playing vs a bad team on a map that is greatly biased towards one side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I've been trying to say before, you do in 1 post, props.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Diminishing the skill gap leaves no reason for competitive play, or even pub play, to even EXIST. What, so we can do the same thing over and over again, it not mattering if we get any better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reducing the skill gap is not focusing on improving just one aspect of the game. This is not strategy. it's about using a multitude of options to gain the best result because each weakness is covered, that's strategy. Look at games such as Starcraft, Warcraft, battles where a person uses the same units will get owned by a person who uses the counter. Why don't you understand a game with people of the same skill levels can still be won by important decisions. Take a look at Starcraft, all units have accuracy of 100% meaning "godly skill", yet games are still won and lost. Why? because of different strategies that counter one another.
You say I should get some skill, but the fact is if I had the skill of the clan people, wouldn't we be in the stage I was talking about, being the same? Competitive play can still exist, there's more to the game than just skill in aiming. Making the right decisions, securing the areas, those can change the game as well. Of course my reference is from the point of view of RTS games, but if NS was indeed a hybrid of both genres, there needs to be strategy, meaning there needs to be more ways to win instead who has the best accuracy. I just don't see how reducing the skill gap, meaning more players on the same level, which creates more games with players of equal skill, is a bad thing.
p.s. im not talking smack, i'm just posting speculation from what 'I'VE' seen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smart commanders will always have people who have better aim go engage skulks in squirmishes and have the ones with lesser aiming abilities cap nodes and what not. That's also true in competitive play, we usually send our two best marines out at start to rush to some part of the map, while the three remain at base to build it then start capping res.
Having a good marine standing around building is a waste of his time and skill to the team. Having him go murder skulks, hold important points on the map or kill skulks at their hive is a MUCH better thing to do for the team. It causes the alien to go on the defensive, defending their hive or nodes. This in turn lets your marines have more freedom on the map, which means more res nodes, which means faster tech advancement, which means you win at the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short version:
CW != Pub. Newbie’s whine - Veterans adept! You’re a newbie if you can’t adept pub play style.
Long version:
Many competitive players running into troubles because they’re not able to adept pub play style. There are completely different rules between a CW and pub play.
You’re worth nothing more than any other player out there on a public server. You won’t gain reputation if you show no team play or the will to do the same duties as the other team members.
That’s the way such dynamic groups of humans are working. If you just load up and go out your own way getting frags in the main hive –whatever it may be the best strategy – you’re not anymore a part of the team and you loose reputation. And if you continue playing that way the other player in the team will seeing your actions as offence and your path will be blocked getting back into the group.
You’re shiny clan tag is worth nothing. It’s like in the military even if you’re a commando soldier with your shiny para-badge you have the same duties as any other soldier and you worked hard for your privileges.
You have to adept this because these are fundamental rules of dynamic groups of humans. These rules will probably never change in 1000’s of years.
p.s. im not talking smack, i'm just posting speculation from what 'I'VE' seen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smart commanders will always have people who have better aim go engage skulks in squirmishes and have the ones with lesser aiming abilities cap nodes and what not. That's also true in competitive play, we usually send our two best marines out at start to rush to some part of the map, while the three remain at base to build it then start capping res.
Having a good marine standing around building is a waste of his time and skill to the team. Having him go murder skulks, hold important points on the map or kill skulks at their hive is a MUCH better thing to do for the team. It causes the alien to go on the defensive, defending their hive or nodes. This in turn lets your marines have more freedom on the map, which means more res nodes, which means faster tech advancement, which means you win at the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short version:
CW != Pub. Newbie’s whine - Veterans adept! You’re a newbie if you can’t adept pub play style.
Long version:
Many competitive players running into troubles because they’re not able to adept pub play style. There are completely different rules between a CW and pub play.
You’re worth nothing more than any other player out there on a public server. You won’t gain reputation if you show no team play or the will to do the same duties as the other team members.
That’s the way such dynamic groups of humans are working. If you just load up and go out your own way getting frags in the main hive –whatever it may be the best strategy – you’re not anymore a part of the team and you loose reputation. And if you continue playing that way the other player in the team will seeing your actions as offence and your path will be blocked getting back into the group.
You’re shiny clan tag is worth nothing. It’s like in the military even if you’re a commando soldier with your shiny para-badge you have the same duties as any other soldier and you worked hard for your privileges.
You have to adept this because these are fundamental rules of dynamic groups of humans. These rules will probably never change in 1000’s of years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, i believe any clanner/good player would be a better asset to the "pub newbie" team if they furtherd their team "as" a team than furthing their ratio. to rush into the hive alone kill maybe 1 - 2 skulks then die.. i'm not sure what you've done for your team besides that little res boost and keeping 1 - 2 skulks fom running around for a couple of seconds, but then once you die.. you're now sent all the way back to base actually decreasing the expansion, giving the aliens that opening to keep you held up in base or farther away from theirs. Or perhaps while you're in their hive.. the skulks already lerking outside hit your base and munch it all up. That of course is depended on the eye of the commander. Worst case scenario would be one marine camping two skulks why the other 3 or 4 hit base and either force a relocation to one of the already locked down hives which wouldn't last long depending on the fades/lerks on the field as well as their ability or <b>GAME</b>.
try sending each "good" marine seperately throughout the map, see what happens. I don't understand why if you see one marine building an rt, you can't go and help him rather than just passing him to go rambo off.. Speed is an absolute necessity, if you both participated in building that rt, it would build much quicker and then you'd have two marines that could rambo off twice as many xenoforms and have twice the chance of completing their set objective in a more efficient manner.
also, a skilled marine can watch as well as build at the same time. So you're saying that if a good marine is near waste.. you'd have a less-good marine walk all the way from the other side of the map to grab that rt? :>
Even as you maybe right - but there IS this social factor. Besides pubbing on other games in Natural Selection it’s a much greater factor. While in Counter Strike you can do your “one man show” and nobody cares in Natural Selection it’s important to act as team. That includes also sometimes little scarifies for your team even if it’s not optimal.
While in a professional soccer team everyone has its role, in a group of casual soccer players the roles get also determined by social factors.
Everyone wants to be the forward.
You have to work for your privilege to be the forward – same as in the casual soccer group and on a Natural Selection public server. Skill is a plus but you have to be part of the team first and have a good reputation if you want to get chosen as forward. Sure you can play forward without being chosen for it but don’t think the others will like the hole in the defence.
Surly it’s not all the same between the casual soccer group and a Natural Selection public server but there are many similarities.
Even as you maybe right - but there IS this social factor. Besides pubbing on other games in Natural Selection it’s a much greater factor. While in Counter Strike you can do your “one man show” and nobody cares in Natural Selection it’s important to act as team. That includes also sometimes little scarifies for your team even if it’s not optimal.
While in a professional soccer team everyone has its role, in a group of casual soccer players the roles get also determined by social factors.
Everyone wants to be the forward.
You have to work for your privilege to be the forward – same as in the casual soccer group and on a Natural Selection public server. Skill is a plus but you have to be part of the team first and have a good reputation if you want to get chosen as forward. Sure you can play forward without being chosen for it but don’t think the others will like the hole in the defence.
Surly it’s not all the same between the casual soccer group and a Natural Selection public server but there are many similarities. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we can all agree that assigning roles because of social status or family belonging is stupid, and in fact forbidden by law in most countries if we want to draw that parallell as well.
but why? you figure, if the marines are trying to lock down a hive.. a horde of skulks are going to rush it, and if you have the "less-skilled" marine there, you've wasted res and time.
a group of marines will dominate no matter what way you slice it, you dont know if there's 1 or even 5 skulks rushing to your location. 3 or 4 good marines in one location is much better than just one.
Beside that your parable lack in similarities to a Natural Selection public server and I don’t mean the social status you were given by birth but the social skills in drawing people to your side and forming some kind of alliance. In a group of people you never chose your role alone. The roles get determined by social processes.
IE: the commander seems to give that first heavy or "big gun" to the MVP of the team, or sometimes ONLY to the marines with the highest ratio.
It boggles my mind sometimes that a commander thinks that one person with a shotgun while all the others sport an lmg is some kind of advantage. whilist if all of them had shotguns, even the lamest of the team could **** up a kill or two with a simple spammage of meds <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Same with aliens, just because you're a good fade or lerk.. why does that exempt you from dropping an rt or hive once in a while and let someone else go lerk or fade for once? skill is based on practice, if those who are less-skilled never get to exercise those skills, then they shall stay in their "less-skilled" level and never exceed.
Those who pair up with their teamates become better known than those who rambo off and keep to themselves most of the time. sometimes they are not where they are needed, and it screws up the rhythm and puts a downer on the team, perhaps puts a grudge on you from the team whining "where were you?!"
p.s. i didn't know s-n-a-t-ch was censored ;x
It is great to have <insert fancy clantag here> member at building second hive, holding his own while he gets a PG up. This singel guy really makes the difference.
The rest of the pub team has an important function too: They annoy the aliens in odd places or love to take double, just because you are "supposed" to take dbl.
But in the end..the situational awareness (Part of the skill most clanners should have) of a single player helps me as a comm to win a game.
Skill is not only "aim, blink, and fast weaponswitch" but the ability to predict the next move of your enemy, second guess an ambushing skulks thoughts and camping in the right places.
mfg
Lance
p.s. im not talking smack, i'm just posting speculation from what 'I'VE' seen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smart commanders will always have people who have better aim go engage skulks in squirmishes and have the ones with lesser aiming abilities cap nodes and what not. That's also true in competitive play, we usually send our two best marines out at start to rush to some part of the map, while the three remain at base to build it then start capping res.
Having a good marine standing around building is a waste of his time and skill to the team. Having him go murder skulks, hold important points on the map or kill skulks at their hive is a MUCH better thing to do for the team. It causes the alien to go on the defensive, defending their hive or nodes. This in turn lets your marines have more freedom on the map, which means more res nodes, which means faster tech advancement, which means you win at the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short version:
CW != Pub. Newbie’s whine - Veterans adept! You’re a newbie if you can’t adept pub play style.
Long version:
Many competitive players running into troubles because they’re not able to adept pub play style. There are completely different rules between a CW and pub play.
You’re worth nothing more than any other player out there on a public server. You won’t gain reputation if you show no team play or the will to do the same duties as the other team members.
That’s the way such dynamic groups of humans are working. If you just load up and go out your own way getting frags in the main hive –whatever it may be the best strategy – you’re not anymore a part of the team and you loose reputation. And if you continue playing that way the other player in the team will seeing your actions as offence and your path will be blocked getting back into the group.
You’re shiny clan tag is worth nothing. It’s like in the military even if you’re a commando soldier with your shiny para-badge you have the same duties as any other soldier and you worked hard for your privileges.
You have to adept this because these are fundamental rules of dynamic groups of humans. These rules will probably never change in 1000’s of years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you say you're worth nothing for being a better skilled player on a team, then you must be a pretty crappy commander. All good commanders, whether a pubber or a clanner, knows a good marine within the first couple minutes of the game. They will like you say adapt, they will usually send the better marines to key junctions, they will usually gear up good marines because they believe that those marines will conserve the res better, by not dying and wasting res. Good marines as you say must adapt, they do. They take what they can get from the commander and make the best of it, if the commander doesn't like dropping meds, the good marine adapt, playing more carefully.
However, good marines don't adapt for the worse just because they're in pub play, that would be pure stupidity. It's like saying, "Oh I'm in a pub now, let me use bad strategies to help my team lose." Good marines will continue to try to hold known choke points, hamper the alien team's resources, etc. That's a key strategy in all of NS, telling a good player, clanner or not, to adapt by doing stupid stuff like locking down one hive while letting the aliens rampage through the other half of the map goes against good thinking. Same as building base turrets, why would you 'adapt' by wasting precious early game minutes building turrets in base while you can be out contesting key nodes with aliens, you don't adapt to a sure-lose strategy. You dont' adapt down a level, you always adapt up to try to win.
Edit Add-on: Great explanation, Lancelot.