Who Feels Armour1 Is Limiting Marine Choices
MistenTH
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Almost always the first choice</div> Marines have a large number of opening tech choices:
-MT
-PG
-Armour 1
-Weaps 1
-Hand Nades
-Catalyst
-Adv Armoury
They can have the following openings:
-Balance between tech and RTs
-RT rush
-Relocation
-2 IPs
-Shotguns for fast RT hunting
And several others that I probably missed.
But armour1 seems to be a pre-requisite for almost everything. If a commander goes weapon 1 instead of armour 1, how many of you scream NOOB!!! If the commander tries PG or MT first, and the marines not up to par, a lot of dead marines will just end up in the spawn queue, not making full use of the tech.
2 bite marines are really easy to kill, even without the need to ambush.
Marines are forced to spend 45 res off the bat just for armour1, which limits the pace of the game. They are locked into armour1 - then anything else, much like the kharaa favour DMS.
Marines have decent firepower, so their longevity is the greatest issue. And armour1 solves that. And limits the diversity of the game.
I'm going to post a suggestion in I&S, tell me what you guys think if you feel the same way as I do about this.
-MT
-PG
-Armour 1
-Weaps 1
-Hand Nades
-Catalyst
-Adv Armoury
They can have the following openings:
-Balance between tech and RTs
-RT rush
-Relocation
-2 IPs
-Shotguns for fast RT hunting
And several others that I probably missed.
But armour1 seems to be a pre-requisite for almost everything. If a commander goes weapon 1 instead of armour 1, how many of you scream NOOB!!! If the commander tries PG or MT first, and the marines not up to par, a lot of dead marines will just end up in the spawn queue, not making full use of the tech.
2 bite marines are really easy to kill, even without the need to ambush.
Marines are forced to spend 45 res off the bat just for armour1, which limits the pace of the game. They are locked into armour1 - then anything else, much like the kharaa favour DMS.
Marines have decent firepower, so their longevity is the greatest issue. And armour1 solves that. And limits the diversity of the game.
I'm going to post a suggestion in I&S, tell me what you guys think if you feel the same way as I do about this.
Comments
Then again, I just plain suck.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=86623' target='_blank'>Suggestion to break Armour First Trend</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the commander tries PG or MT first, and the marines not up to par, a lot of dead marines will just end up in the spawn queue, not making full use of the tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whereas Armour 1 increases a marines lifespan 1.5times
MT is viable first upgrade but MT is EXPENSIVE for a first upgrade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PG is different, not really comparable, should really be done about the same time.
I like to get MT first, but its not always needed either as some marines are good at hearing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, you can get A1 AND phase tech for the same price as MT
catalyst is VERY expensive ESPECIALLY early game.
2 IPs are not needed due to marines dominance against skulks early game.
Hand nades, lol (need buffing devs)
adv armoury is not needed that early as you wont have the res in 3 minutes to get proto and/or hmg unless you team is dominating.
Shotguns for fast RT hunting only works in clan games or small pub games, because if you give 1 or 2 people a shotgun ina normal sized pub the whole team sits in base saying CORNMANDOR WE NEED SHIRTGUNS TOO YOUR NOT NICE!!!111oneone
Relocation, ugh, beacon doesnt work.
RT rush can be done at the same time.
Also how are the marines LOCKED into armour one, they arent, the aliens are LOCKED into defense chambers if they get them because the chambersare chained (keep them that way please devs). Its not as if rines wont get A1 during the game sometime.
Edit:
Also Adv Armoury and PTech dont give your rines that edge in the field that can win the early game.
I think the concept is good, but it seems like it needs more significance. they're neccesary upgrades, but as it is they feel more like nuisance upgrades.
I don't know how (haven't read the suggestion yet), but it seems the concept should be further examined and somehow adjusted to make the basic marine grunt upgrades more significant to the game.
same goes for the "three chamber" concept for the kharaa, both ideas are right (three for the upgrade to be maxed), but the means to achieving the end seem to be off.
Yeah, I'll prove you wrong. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Weapons 1 doesn't even affect how many shots it takes to kill a skulk. It's still 9 shots because 8 only do 88 dmg, not enough to kill the skulk. I think it helps against Lerks though, but I rarely see early lerks.
In 3.0b5 it takes 9 bullets whether you have w0 or w1. Aliens have hive1 armor values in combat (I watch the damage I take closely enough that I am sure of it). In 3.0b6, w1 will reduce the number of bullets by 1 (because innate regen will mean that w0 needs an additional bullet). I am completely sure of all of that.
As far as the actual topic, I disagree. It's not like getting a1 prevents the marines from doing other things at the same time. They can still get phase tech, or even drop a second arms lab and get w1 simultaneously if they want.
i like this idea though, sounds good especially as 1 para will nullify it (skulks should really learn to para early marines) also while i agree a1 is the most useful first upgrade atm it really isnt the be all and end all unless you have a competant team and go for early welders, once you've taken a bite or some spores from an early lerk it's back to good old two bites again. Thats not to say it isnt very useful to break through ambushes.
If players were to slow down... listen for aliens... not just rush into rooms... let the aliens come to them... GOD FORBID WAIT OUTSIDE A ROOM... NOT FREAKING DIE LIKE FLIES..... wait for orders... HOLD THE RESNODE RATHER THAN RUN INTO TE ALIEN STRONGHOLD IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET ANOTHER... maybe you wouldnt always need that extra bite...
Case in point.... Hera entrance on ns_hera... i can cap that res and freaking hold it all day all by myself never sustaining a bite... same thing with laser drilling on origin, or chemical on tanith..
People just wanna keep rushing
As soon as ur dead.. there are suddenly no marines behind you... and all the res you have capped go down in seconds...
Lay off, cap and HOLD...and ull realize that you dont NEED armor 1 because you are never bitten!!
that is all
~Jason
If players were to slow down... listen for aliens... not just rush into rooms... let the aliens come to them... GOD FORBID WAIT OUTSIDE A ROOM... NOT FREAKING DIE LIKE FLIES..... wait for orders... HOLD THE RESNODE RATHER THAN RUN INTO TE ALIEN STRONGHOLD IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET ANOTHER... maybe you wouldnt always need that extra bite...
Case in point.... Hera entrance on ns_hera... i can cap that res and freaking hold it all day all by myself never sustaining a bite... same thing with laser drilling on origin, or chemical on tanith..
People just wanna keep rushing
As soon as ur dead.. there are suddenly no marines behind you... and all the res you have capped go down in seconds...
Lay off, cap and HOLD...and ull realize that you dont NEED armor 1 because you are never bitten!!
that is all
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No alien that is actually good will rush you, if he's not a higher lifeform.
Motion tracking is probably the best early upgrade possible for good marines. Its much harder to be ambushed and you know exactly where the aliens are trying to push and you have a good ideal what rts they have. Basically if a marine can aim at all and knows exactly where the aliens are he should never die.
Weapon upgrades are also very usefull b/c your weapons do more damge in the same time and more damge before you have to reload. Level 1 may not be that good but you can defenatly tell when a marine has level 2 or 3 weapons especialy when fighting early fades. Also shotguns versus skulls usually if you aim decent and the skull doesnt die he has like 10 hp. With 10% more damage the skull would have died.
Basically for good marines getting mt and weapons 3 asap with a little med pac help owns aliens.
I hope I never see a comm get w3 before a1.
If players were to slow down... listen for aliens... not just rush into rooms... let the aliens come to them... GOD FORBID WAIT OUTSIDE A ROOM... NOT FREAKING DIE LIKE FLIES..... wait for orders... HOLD THE RESNODE RATHER THAN RUN INTO TE ALIEN STRONGHOLD IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET ANOTHER... maybe you wouldnt always need that extra bite...
Case in point.... Hera entrance on ns_hera... i can cap that res and freaking hold it all day all by myself never sustaining a bite... same thing with laser drilling on origin, or chemical on tanith..
People just wanna keep rushing
As soon as ur dead.. there are suddenly no marines behind you... and all the res you have capped go down in seconds...
Lay off, cap and HOLD...and ull realize that you dont NEED armor 1 because you are never bitten!!
that is all
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is all well and good but why bother holding a room by yourself with an upgrade that doesnt help you at all [weapons 1]? And... GOD FORBID GET ATTACKED BY MORE THAN ONE SKULK... need that extra bite. You're being very one sided here, if the alien team used the patience and teamwork that you speak of, then you being by yourself in hera wont last very long. Armor 1 is much more chosen in the beginning, not because of peoples inability to adapt (though this is true for alien D-M-S imo, but thats a different thread), but rather the contrary is useless in weapon 1 terms.
A different upgrade order not regarding the armslab at all is a different story though. I've seen comms pull quick exciting and easy victories with a heavy armor rush for example. I myself have, on multiple occasions, gotten MT first and wait along time for upgrades. This, I will give you, is a lack of adaptation.
Not many people like gambling, so they take the safer option. Even a hopeless player can make himself valuable by soaking up hits from aliens. Its also good for comms as it gives you more breathing space for medspam and counters an SC focus/cloak/silence rush from aliens.
Comms that dont get a1 first make me angry :<
The only reason you would want to get w1 1st is so you can rush w2, which most comms dont do. They get w1, and then get a1. Completely illogical. W1 shotgun rush you say? A1 shotty rush would be 10x stronger. W1 makes so little differenc compared to A1 that you'd have to be crazy (or just really nooby) not to get it.
The only time a decent player will need armour 1 early game is if your ambushed walking into a room. At all other times using ur ears is sufficiant to bag 5 or 6 skulks without dieng. However since alot of ppl playing ns arnt decent players armour 1 is probably the safest choice to avoid commander flamming and keep the team happy.
It is, generally, MT or A1 first. Either know that they're coming, or be able to take them if they suprise you. PGs are rushed sometimes, but I find that strat folly as it gives your marines no real edge against those skulks. Upgrading the armory quickly can also be a fairly well exercised strategy if you grab armor 1 as soon as you get the res free. Once that armory is upgraded you have alot more breathing room and can rush jetpacks, heavy, or GL/HMG/Shotty rush a hive at whim. Gives you much more... as SDJASON wants.... adaptability.
The only time a decent player will need armour 1 early game is if your ambushed walking into a room. At all other times using ur ears is sufficiant to bag 5 or 6 skulks without dieng. However since alot of ppl playing ns arnt decent players armour 1 is probably the safest choice to avoid commander flamming and keep the team happy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol. even the best ns player in the world would gladly take armor1 over weapon1. What happens if 2 skulks are bhopping towards you from 2 different directions? You really think you could successfully sidestep 2 bhopping skulks without getting bitten more than once? Your chances improve soo much with that extra bite. Rather than just killing one skulk and having the other skulk kill you from behind in 1 second because it only had to bite you twice, you could kill 1, turn around, and probably kill that too if you're good enough and get off with 10 hp.
People say it makes no difference against skulks...
But what about an upgraded skulk? becasue by the time a mariene has an upgrade the aliens do too...
<!--QuoteBegin-themakefunofpplacct+Jan 17 2005, 03:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (themakefunofpplacct @ Jan 17 2005, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol. even the best ns player in the world would gladly take armor1 over weapon1. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes... but what would the best team prefer?
When groupped together level 1 weapons will definately have a compounding affect making the group much stronger and possibly prevent mele range combat.
Maybe weapon 1 first should encourage you not to go out rambo style.
the armour upgrade doesn't get better as rines group together becase most attacks will only hurt one person and only that single person's armour contributes to his own defence. However if the marienes are grouped each individual's weapon upgrade is added the the teams offence.
I mean you can rush HMG and for example get 2 or 3 of them to go together... With that, even higher level aliens won't get many attacks out.
Motion tracking is probably the best early upgrade possible for good marines. Its much harder to be ambushed and you know exactly where the aliens are trying to push and you have a good ideal what rts they have. Basically if a marine can aim at all and knows exactly where the aliens are he should never die.
Weapon upgrades are also very usefull b/c your weapons do more damge in the same time and more damge before you have to reload. Level 1 may not be that good but you can defenatly tell when a marine has level 2 or 3 weapons especialy when fighting early fades. Also shotguns versus skulls usually if you aim decent and the skull doesnt die he has like 10 hp. With 10% more damage the skull would have died.
Basically for good marines getting mt and weapons 3 asap with a little med pac help owns aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that requires mental processes no doubt lacking for some players