Will we get to see a changelog that lists the bugfixes? I for one am curious, just because I love to see all the work thats been put into a patch, and this one looks like a doozy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Jan 10 2005, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Jan 10 2005, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jan 10 2005, 03:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jan 10 2005, 03:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can't you backup mappers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This gives me an idea! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mendasp, u just saved my day! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The changelog is looking godd and i cant wait to see the first I&S threads just after b6 is out for about an hour.
Addressing all "i only play rines cuz the pwn" players: I am the Hive-Mind and vengeance will come uppon my enemies!
The Sg nerf is good, Siege nerf is good, basic regen is good, Sc change is good. I want to play it NOW.....plz...plz...dont me me cry <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hehe, actually it just makes NS games more like CO... think of 4 jetpacks nailing a hive as hard as they can with their shotgun as 5 gorges just keep healing it, with 1 or two good fades swiping down the jetpackers so they can't focus on the gorges.
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well - Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature.
Say what you will about Agora and Mineshaft and Bast, I'll take a map that looks good and cope with any unbalances over a map like, say, Veil, which looks like someone splashed ink on a sheet of paper and folded it in half. There is no more dull a map than Veil, and yet everyone and their stinking mother likes it. IT LOOKS THE SAME ON THE RIGHT AS THE LEFT. You leave base from either side down a long hallway, then you get to the first node, then you come to an intersection and you either go to double or to the next node, then you reach either the left or right hive or double, and from there you walk to Cargo, the generic middle hive. THE EXACT SAME PLAN OF ATTACK WORKS ON THE LEFT AS ON THE RIGHT WITH PRACTICALLY ZERO VARIATION. It's so BORING.
It's the most uninspired map of this inspired game. No offense to the mapper guy, but it's so clean and sterile everywhere except the hive rooms. There's no grit in Veil. There's no broken pipes and dark red vents and cracked walls and destroyed scenery, and the walls look the exact same everywhere in the map. I'm not even sure what Veil is supposed to be anyway. I can figure out that Bast and Nancy are cargo hauling space ships, I can figure out that Hera is a planetary outpost, I can even figure out that Altair is a deep-sea underwater base. Veil could be darn near anything.
Oh well, I guess ns_Lost will have to double as the Deep Underground Abandoned Industrial Complex map (except in space rather than a mine system).
...
HEY NEO-BAST TEAM, WE HAVE A NEW PROJECT FOR YOU. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> K TY
I'm gonna miss mineshaft, I don't care what anyone has to say. It was always one of my favorite maps to play on, just because of the constent struggle for double and tram hive.
I liked Mineshaft because it had variations in altitude. Drill hive was WAAAAAAY at the bottom of the map, and you had to drop down two sets of ladders to U-turn or that water-filled double-ladder elevator shaft to get to it, meanwhile Tram hive was about level with marine start altitude-wise, and Sewer hive was somewhere in the middle altitude, after going down the short elevator to mess hall.
I love maps with a lot of altitude variation. Bast is awesome like that. So is Agora. I can't tell you how much I wish other people liked Agora. The map is just too big for smaller games, I think is the problem, but it has some of the best vent systems for both marine and skulk sneaking and just looks so damn HOT! All I could possibly ask for is maybe one or two more weldables.
Agora has been completely altered about twice already, and TBH I liked the first, second, and current build all the same. I remember when sewer had that broken floor that lead to the weldable siege room, instead of just having it be a standard approach to the hive. That was cool. And of course, Agora has the infamous wire-strewn floor-vents for skulks to hide near that one node near MS, and outside the button-activated door room.
You can't ruin a good looking map. On the other hand, no amount of balance will make a dull map any less dull.
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Jan 10 2005, 10:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Jan 10 2005, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hehe, actually it just makes NS games more like CO... think of 4 jetpacks nailing a hive as hard as they can with their shotgun as 5 gorges just keep healing it, with 1 or two good fades swiping down the jetpackers so they can't focus on the gorges.
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well - Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You situation that you describe sounds just like the CO one I made ealier... thank you for verifying what I said, I can't wait to go play it and go test it myself!
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive 2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink
<!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 04:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You situation that you describe sounds just like the CO one I made ealier...
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive 2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Where were the jetpacks? 2) Where were the shotguns? (we only had 1 HMG I believe) 3) Where was the 'pack of gorges' healspraying the hive into invincibility? (we got the hive down to 20%) 4) Where did I mention building more sieges?
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Jan 10 2005, 05:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Jan 10 2005, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 04:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You situation that you describe sounds just like the CO one I made ealier...
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive 2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Where were the jetpacks? 2) Where were the shotguns? (we only had 1 HMG I believe) 3) Where was the 'pack of gorges' healspraying the hive into invincibility? (we got the hive down to 20%) 4) Where did I mention building more sieges? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow you miss the point. The jetpacks-Gorge scenerio is the CO equivilent of a siege-gorge scenerio in NS.
Man, you can't be serious... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Please stop jokign man and focus on what I'm typing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
BTW if the gorges didn't healspray the hive... that's their mistake doesn't mean it won't work.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 04:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 04:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BTW if the gorges didn't healspray the hive... that's their mistake doesn't mean it won't work. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It might. It might not. It sure as hell worked to only have one gorge healspraying and the rest of the aliens attacking.
It -won't- work. Because one fade (or even two) -can't- hold off a seige attack by themselves. Not when the marines have a phasegate (and they ALWAYS do). A couple shotguns make fades flee for their lives. Heck, concentrated LMG fire can make them run away, and the marine will be back faster than that fade. I know this, because I've just seen it happen.
Assuming a 6 man team... if four go gorge and healspray the hive constantly, that theoretically gives the remaining two aliens, presumably fades, 3 minutes to drive off the invaders. BUT! They won't get these three minutes, because the marines will drive back the fades a few times, and then FOLLOW THROUGH. And keep in mind that hives usually store chambers as well, which will go down, which will weaken the aliens.
So the fades are made to run away for a few moments. In those moments, the marines shoot the gorges, maybe takes one down before the fades return and they have to defend the phasegate again, which isn't THAT hard with good structure placement. (Hint: place buildings to block fades) And make sure you have someone welding that phase as well.
You drive the fades back again... yes you took heavy losses, but with skill and luck, if even one marine survives to drive the fades back, you've bought yourself more time. Now, the marines have 4 dead marines, 1 living, and 1 commander. The commander beacons them all back to base, maybe drops shotguns, and hjas them all phase back. This all happens before the fades have healed up. More time down, and remember... one gorge is down already.
And now we repeat the cycle. Another gorge falls, shortening the time left for hive death. Fades return, fades driven off. Etc.
Four gorges healing simply DOESN'T WORK. That's not to say we've tried (or at least, I haven't)... but I've seen how things go with 1 gorge, or 2 gorges healing. And I -know- you need more than fades attacking a seige. The fades just can't keep up the onslaught like skulks can.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Jan 10 2005, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Jan 10 2005, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I liked Mineshaft because it had variations in altitude. Drill hive was WAAAAAAY at the bottom of the map, and you had to drop down two sets of ladders to U-turn or that water-filled double-ladder elevator shaft to get to it, meanwhile Tram hive was about level with marine start altitude-wise, and Sewer hive was somewhere in the middle altitude, after going down the short elevator to mess hall.
I love maps with a lot of altitude variation. Bast is awesome like that. So is Agora. I can't tell you how much I wish other people liked Agora. The map is just too big for smaller games, I think is the problem, but it has some of the best vent systems for both marine and skulk sneaking and just looks so damn HOT! All I could possibly ask for is maybe one or two more weldables.
Agora has been completely altered about twice already, and TBH I liked the first, second, and current build all the same. I remember when sewer had that broken floor that lead to the weldable siege room, instead of just having it be a standard approach to the hive. That was cool. And of course, Agora has the infamous wire-strewn floor-vents for skulks to hide near that one node near MS, and outside the button-activated door room.
You can't ruin a good looking map. On the other hand, no amount of balance will make a dull map any less dull. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Im sorry are you joking? Mineshaft, Bast, Agora, and Altair are so horribly unbalanced its not even funny. They don't even look that good at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Jan 10 2005, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Jan 10 2005, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hehe, actually it just makes NS games more like CO... think of 4 jetpacks nailing a hive as hard as they can with their shotgun as 5 gorges just keep healing it, with 1 or two good fades swiping down the jetpackers so they can't focus on the gorges.
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well - Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh I so totaly agree. Getting killed from a siege is one of the worst thing that can happen in a game. It just takes all the fun out of a siege situation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fieari+Jan 10 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fieari @ Jan 10 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It -won't- work. Because one fade (or even two) -can't- hold off a seige attack by themselves. Not when the marines have a phasegate (and they ALWAYS do). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A bugfix that throttles the rate at which marines can go through PGs (check, it's in the log), has made PGs significantly less dangerous <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Fieari+Jan 11 2005, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fieari @ Jan 11 2005, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Four gorges healing simply DOESN'T WORK. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He's right. Especially when a GL comes out, which are a requirement in a seige to keep the skulks at bay.
And yes MrObvious, GLs beatdown healing-gorges in NS, just as they do in combat.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jan 11 2005, 01:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 11 2005, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A bugfix that throttles the rate at which marines can go through PGs (check, it's in the log), has made PGs significantly less dangerous <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I sure hope there's a way of telling how far through the cycle a PG is. It's irksome enough as it is.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Jan 10 2005, 10:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Jan 10 2005, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 03:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hehe, actually it just makes NS games more like CO... think of 4 jetpacks nailing a hive as hard as they can with their shotgun as 5 gorges just keep healing it, with 1 or two good fades swiping down the jetpackers so they can't focus on the gorges.
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well - Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You situation that you describe sounds just like the CO one I made ealier... thank you for verifying what I said, I can't wait to go play it and go test it myself!
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive 2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont get you. You're comparing seiging to a CO situation? CO as in COMBAT? Seiges ARE NOT in combat mode. DUH! So what exactly ARE you describing? And how did you work in jetpackers in there? Let alone CO? WTH ARE YOU SAYING MAN!?
I think the seige nerf is a good idea. Not being able to hit player i mean. Cause yes it gets the marines motivated to move in and clear out and actually RISK FRAGGAGE! Marine wins are like 4 out of 5 games (at least when I play). They made it a bit too easy to be a marine in my opinion. This should help out a bit, along with the gorge bile bombrange being increased. It's about time marines get a bit of a spanking.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Jan 10 2005, 07:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Jan 10 2005, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, yes I was joking MyNameIsAPasseEmoBand. How perceptive of you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not hard to assume you're joking when you don't support what you say <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . Mineshaft is (was, now) in need of major changes. It's a hellhole of a map for onoses to move around, marine start can barely hold all the buildings required, let alone allow for defensive positioning of ips and such. Sewer hive as a starting hive always leads to two game outcomes - skulk rushes in the beginning leading to an alien win, or a slow strangling marine victory as they take both tram, double, all the resnodes in the top/middle part of the map, and they have a perfect base to stage attacks on the potential second hive. It's pretty alright, but admiring the architecture won't really make the sting of a thorough rompage hurt any less. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With that said, mineshaft is really the only map I have a problem with. Agora - haven't played it for so long, I can't even remember the layout that well, so commenting on gameplay'd be kinda silly. Bast - Bast is big enough and complex enough that hardly any strategy/lock is open to destruction by the other team. The only thing I don't like is how close engine and ms are, but that's getting fixed in the next beta. Lerking in Refinery hive with a buddy, holding off 3 jetpackers at once, dodging in and out of all the pipes and towers, is one of the best memories of NS I have. Altair - I got a favorable impression of the layout originally, especially because it's just so friggin complex, but sadly few people have the patience to learn all the best vent systems apparently, because I haven't played it in sooo long <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mineshaft doesn't look so good to me. I don't like it at all, for gameplay OR looks. Bast looks very nice, and has LOTS of funny relocate spots. It's great to place IPs randomly throughout the map and spawn everywhere. Altair, Agora and Ayumi should get different names. I confuse them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jan 11 2005, 03:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jan 11 2005, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mineshaft doesn't look so good to me. I don't like it at all, for gameplay OR looks. Bast looks very nice, and has LOTS of funny relocate spots. It's great to place IPs randomly throughout the map and spawn everywhere. Altair, Agora and Ayumi should get different names. I confuse them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, I used to confuse agora and ayumi. But now I have them all straight - Agora: Dark colors, like dark purple and green. Ayumi: Blue, medium blue. Altair: Many colors.
Comments
This gives me an idea! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mendasp, u just saved my day! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The changelog is looking godd and i cant wait to see the first I&S threads just after b6 is out for about an hour.
Addressing all "i only play rines cuz the pwn" players:
I am the Hive-Mind and vengeance will come uppon my enemies!
The Sg nerf is good, Siege nerf is good, basic regen is good, Sc change is good.
I want to play it NOW.....plz...plz...dont me me cry <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well
- Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Say what you will about Agora and Mineshaft and Bast, I'll take a map that looks good and cope with any unbalances over a map like, say, Veil, which looks like someone splashed ink on a sheet of paper and folded it in half. There is no more dull a map than Veil, and yet everyone and their stinking mother likes it. IT LOOKS THE SAME ON THE RIGHT AS THE LEFT. You leave base from either side down a long hallway, then you get to the first node, then you come to an intersection and you either go to double or to the next node, then you reach either the left or right hive or double, and from there you walk to Cargo, the generic middle hive. THE EXACT SAME PLAN OF ATTACK WORKS ON THE LEFT AS ON THE RIGHT WITH PRACTICALLY ZERO VARIATION. It's so BORING.
It's the most uninspired map of this inspired game. No offense to the mapper guy, but it's so clean and sterile everywhere except the hive rooms. There's no grit in Veil. There's no broken pipes and dark red vents and cracked walls and destroyed scenery, and the walls look the exact same everywhere in the map. I'm not even sure what Veil is supposed to be anyway. I can figure out that Bast and Nancy are cargo hauling space ships, I can figure out that Hera is a planetary outpost, I can even figure out that Altair is a deep-sea underwater base. Veil could be darn near anything.
Oh well, I guess ns_Lost will have to double as the Deep Underground Abandoned Industrial Complex map (except in space rather than a mine system).
...
HEY NEO-BAST TEAM, WE HAVE A NEW PROJECT FOR YOU. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> K TY
neo-bast? wait, wait, <b>TEAM</b>??. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm gonna miss mineshaft, I don't care what anyone has to say. It was always one of my favorite maps to play on, just because of the constent struggle for double and tram hive.
But that's just me.
I love maps with a lot of altitude variation. Bast is awesome like that. So is Agora. I can't tell you how much I wish other people liked Agora. The map is just too big for smaller games, I think is the problem, but it has some of the best vent systems for both marine and skulk sneaking and just looks so damn HOT! All I could possibly ask for is maybe one or two more weldables.
Agora has been completely altered about twice already, and TBH I liked the first, second, and current build all the same. I remember when sewer had that broken floor that lead to the weldable siege room, instead of just having it be a standard approach to the hive. That was cool. And of course, Agora has the infamous wire-strewn floor-vents for skulks to hide near that one node near MS, and outside the button-activated door room.
You can't ruin a good looking map. On the other hand, no amount of balance will make a dull map any less dull.
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well
- Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You situation that you describe sounds just like the CO one I made ealier... thank you for verifying what I said, I can't wait to go play it and go test it myself!
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive
2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive
2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Where were the jetpacks?
2) Where were the shotguns? (we only had 1 HMG I believe)
3) Where was the 'pack of gorges' healspraying the hive into invincibility? (we got the hive down to 20%)
4) Where did I mention building more sieges?
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive
2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Where were the jetpacks?
2) Where were the shotguns? (we only had 1 HMG I believe)
3) Where was the 'pack of gorges' healspraying the hive into invincibility? (we got the hive down to 20%)
4) Where did I mention building more sieges? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow you miss the point. The jetpacks-Gorge scenerio is the CO equivilent of a siege-gorge scenerio in NS.
Man, you can't be serious... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Please stop jokign man and focus on what I'm typing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
BTW if the gorges didn't healspray the hive... that's their mistake doesn't mean it won't work.
It might. It might not. It sure as hell worked to only have one gorge healspraying and the rest of the aliens attacking.
Assuming a 6 man team... if four go gorge and healspray the hive constantly, that theoretically gives the remaining two aliens, presumably fades, 3 minutes to drive off the invaders. BUT! They won't get these three minutes, because the marines will drive back the fades a few times, and then FOLLOW THROUGH. And keep in mind that hives usually store chambers as well, which will go down, which will weaken the aliens.
So the fades are made to run away for a few moments. In those moments, the marines shoot the gorges, maybe takes one down before the fades return and they have to defend the phasegate again, which isn't THAT hard with good structure placement. (Hint: place buildings to block fades) And make sure you have someone welding that phase as well.
You drive the fades back again... yes you took heavy losses, but with skill and luck, if even one marine survives to drive the fades back, you've bought yourself more time. Now, the marines have 4 dead marines, 1 living, and 1 commander. The commander beacons them all back to base, maybe drops shotguns, and hjas them all phase back. This all happens before the fades have healed up. More time down, and remember... one gorge is down already.
And now we repeat the cycle. Another gorge falls, shortening the time left for hive death. Fades return, fades driven off. Etc.
Four gorges healing simply DOESN'T WORK. That's not to say we've tried (or at least, I haven't)... but I've seen how things go with 1 gorge, or 2 gorges healing. And I -know- you need more than fades attacking a seige. The fades just can't keep up the onslaught like skulks can.
I love maps with a lot of altitude variation. Bast is awesome like that. So is Agora. I can't tell you how much I wish other people liked Agora. The map is just too big for smaller games, I think is the problem, but it has some of the best vent systems for both marine and skulk sneaking and just looks so damn HOT! All I could possibly ask for is maybe one or two more weldables.
Agora has been completely altered about twice already, and TBH I liked the first, second, and current build all the same. I remember when sewer had that broken floor that lead to the weldable siege room, instead of just having it be a standard approach to the hive. That was cool. And of course, Agora has the infamous wire-strewn floor-vents for skulks to hide near that one node near MS, and outside the button-activated door room.
You can't ruin a good looking map. On the other hand, no amount of balance will make a dull map any less dull. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry are you joking? Mineshaft, Bast, Agora, and Altair are so horribly unbalanced its not even funny. They don't even look that good at all.
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well
- Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I so totaly agree. Getting killed from a siege is one of the worst thing that can happen in a game. It just takes all the fun out of a siege situation.
A bugfix that throttles the rate at which marines can go through PGs (check, it's in the log), has made PGs significantly less dangerous <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
He's right. Especially when a GL comes out, which are a requirement in a seige to keep the skulks at bay.
And yes MrObvious, GLs beatdown healing-gorges in NS, just as they do in combat.
win.
I sure hope there's a way of telling how far through the cycle a PG is. It's irksome enough as it is.
*hits E some more*
I almost guarentee you that you will get stalemates at siege points that marines CANNOT win once people figure out they can gorge it up and just heal the hive from being killed.
A good fade on a pub can EASILY keep out a marine force out of the hive, hell even in a clan game a fade can do this no problem, because the hive heal is so extreme. Before in the old seige, it drew aliens OUT OF THE HIVE so they had to fight without the hive heal... now guess what? Once a player figures out:
- I suck, and I'm probably gonna get owned if I try to attack the seige encampment as I can't coordinate with my team nor can play a leap skulk/fade very well
- Gorging takes no skill and makes up for the "I suck" factor as keeping the hive alive from 1 seige (or 2 seiges if they have adren) is much better than them randomally suciding into marines.
Hasn't anyone else spotted this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You haven't played B6 yet, have you? No offense intended but:
<b>You have no idea what you're talking about.</b>
I was on an ns map last night, and the marines tried to siege a hive. The siege looked nothing like what you described - the most obvious difference being the lack of gorges healing the hive. There were only two gorges, and only one of them healsprayed the hive at all. The second gorge just did hit-and-runs with bile bomb. The other aliens were all skulks and one lerk, and they were enough to keep up from succesfully sieging.
Did we loose the siege because of the no siege damage to creatures? No. We lost becuse we didn't have enough firepower to drive off the aliens, and because they just kept pressuring us hard enough with lerk spores and skilled skulks. It was exactly what a siege <i>should</i> be like. We lost because we were not as skilled, prepared and motivated as our alien enemies. If we <i>had</i> won that siege battle due to the siegeis killing creatures, then I think it would be yet another argument for removing that feature. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You situation that you describe sounds just like the CO one I made ealier... thank you for verifying what I said, I can't wait to go play it and go test it myself!
BTW -- Marines cannot just "Build" more sieges as it's
1. Expensive
2. Requires increasingly more space to operate more seiges and more manpower... meaning an enormous res sink <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont get you. You're comparing seiging to a CO situation? CO as in COMBAT? Seiges ARE NOT in combat mode. DUH! So what exactly ARE you describing? And how did you work in jetpackers in there? Let alone CO? WTH ARE YOU SAYING MAN!?
I think the seige nerf is a good idea. Not being able to hit player i mean. Cause yes it gets the marines motivated to move in and clear out and actually RISK FRAGGAGE! Marine wins are like 4 out of 5 games (at least when I play). They made it a bit too easy to be a marine in my opinion. This should help out a bit, along with the gorge bile bombrange being increased. It's about time marines get a bit of a spanking.
Not hard to assume you're joking when you don't support what you say <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . Mineshaft is (was, now) in need of major changes. It's a hellhole of a map for onoses to move around, marine start can barely hold all the buildings required, let alone allow for defensive positioning of ips and such. Sewer hive as a starting hive always leads to two game outcomes - skulk rushes in the beginning leading to an alien win, or a slow strangling marine victory as they take both tram, double, all the resnodes in the top/middle part of the map, and they have a perfect base to stage attacks on the potential second hive. It's pretty alright, but admiring the architecture won't really make the sting of a thorough rompage hurt any less. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With that said, mineshaft is really the only map I have a problem with.
Agora - haven't played it for so long, I can't even remember the layout that well, so commenting on gameplay'd be kinda silly.
Bast - Bast is big enough and complex enough that hardly any strategy/lock is open to destruction by the other team. The only thing I don't like is how close engine and ms are, but that's getting fixed in the next beta. Lerking in Refinery hive with a buddy, holding off 3 jetpackers at once, dodging in and out of all the pipes and towers, is one of the best memories of NS I have.
Altair - I got a favorable impression of the layout originally, especially because it's just so friggin complex, but sadly few people have the patience to learn all the best vent systems apparently, because I haven't played it in sooo long <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
mr obvious, you have the support of mr drug lord
Bast looks very nice, and has LOTS of funny relocate spots. It's great to place IPs randomly throughout the map and spawn everywhere.
Altair, Agora and Ayumi should get different names. I confuse them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bast looks very nice, and has LOTS of funny relocate spots. It's great to place IPs randomly throughout the map and spawn everywhere.
Altair, Agora and Ayumi should get different names. I confuse them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, I used to confuse agora and ayumi. But now I have them all straight - Agora: Dark colors, like dark purple and green. Ayumi: Blue, medium blue. Altair: Many colors.
When you can see them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Look at that. Apparently someone has discovered the whole problem to changing sieges long before I even knew the changelog existed...