Poll: Unfaily Balanced Maps

RenegadeRenegade Old school Join Date: 2002-03-29 Member: 361Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Which map(s) do you not like?</div> I'm starting a poll to see which maps you think are unfairly balanced and why. State your qualms below.
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Comments

  • MaxPepper13MaxPepper13 Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7375Members
    Not really unbalanced but... tanith makes it really easy for aleins to rush in the beginning.

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  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    I 've just played ns_bast as alien and it is very very hard to make an attack on fully established marine base (they can do lot of nasty things with turrets and grenades)

    Marine base is really hard to acces for aliens. (ns_tanith - it is really easy to get inside marine base)
  • NecroNecro &lt;insert non-birthday-related title here&gt; Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
    none. i've won with both teams (same server same peeps) on all maps, as both teams...numerous times.
  • Relic25Relic25 Pixel Punk Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 39Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Ravlin: Next time they are turtled like that, here's something to try.

    Keep harassing the marines with various attacks to keep the preoccupied, while at ;east one gorge quietly builds about 20 offensive chambers on the cargo lift below. Once the chambers are built, send the elevator up, and as soon as the chambers begin firing, have every available alien swarm into the marine start. The complete chaos that ensues gives the aliens a nice edge, and the chambers provide a nice distraction for those grenade spammers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Also, it's possible to sit in a spot in the vent that overlooks that room where most grenades that are lobbed at you will tumble down the shaft and explode harmlessly behind you. I know because I've used it many a time as a fade.
  • FieariFieari Join Date: 2002-10-22 Member: 1566Members, Constellation
    I've never seen an unbalanced official map. I've won more than my fair share of Bast maps as aliens, but I was just reading another thread saying that aliens never win on bast, so I figure it must be balanced after all.
  • CreamystewCreamystew Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7188Members
    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=10862&st=15' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...1&t=10862&st=15</a>

    The maps are fine.
  • QwertyMcDunkinQwertyMcDunkin Join Date: 2002-10-06 Member: 1443Members
    ns_bast is my favorite! The refinery room is so cool!

    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <Mwahhahah! Die you silly marine!
  • realityisdeadrealityisdead Employed by Raven Software after making ns_nothing Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 94Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I'm not saying that anyone has, but if you're going to reply to this thread with a certain map in mind, PLEASE avoid saying something like "I hate ns_whatever! I can't stand it, it's by far the worst one in the bunch."

    This thread could be helpful if people say <i>why</i> they don't like something about a level (and preferably add suggestions on how to improve this), but if not, it will just end up like the stickied poll above where the designers swim through a bunch of posts with people telling him that his map sucks, and that he should just dig a hole in the ground to live in.

    Heh, thanks.
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    ns_bast

    first thing smart marines do is building at least 3 siege in their main base

    that denies 1) engine hive 2) main aft junction 3) the elevator for the aliens

    then follows a rush to atmospheric processing for the RPs and finally Feedwater. i've seen such marine victories too often to consider bast balanced anymore.
  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Relic25+Nov 14 2002, 06:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Relic25 @ Nov 14 2002, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep harassing the marines with various attacks to keep the preoccupied, while at ;east one gorge quietly builds about 20 offensive chambers on the cargo lift below. Once the chambers are built, send the elevator up, and as soon as the chambers begin firing, have every available alien swarm into the marine start. The complete chaos that ensues gives the aliens a nice edge, and the chambers provide a nice distraction for those grenade spammers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I would have done that, but there was one problem. That elevator was already full of turrets <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    So when I attacked, the elevator came down with turrets and marines were immediatly spaming it with grenades from above (we were only playing me against 2 others). I tryed to bomb those turrets (6 or 7) with acid rocket and bile bomb but it wasn't doing anything to them (I fired perhaps 20 or 30 times before they called the elevator up) and when I came to them to see if I was doing any damage their health was all at green. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
    When we were bombing with Fades yesterday on ns_tanith (showing damage in numbers was turned on on the server) I clearly saw I was destroying them (and actually with some 20 - 30 shots I destroyed some of those turrets). But today when firing on those turrets at elevator I was doing no damage.
    Perhaps it has something to do with turrets placed on moving elevator instead on solid ground. When using slashing I was damaging them but not with acid rocket or bile bomb.

    The other entrance to marine base (ns_bast) was completly full of turrets (I think even marines could not move there).
  • Relic25Relic25 Pixel Punk Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 39Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited November 2002
    Here's my response to that. It ain't the map's fault.

    Number 1. I, as the mapper, had no control over the range that was set for the siege cannon at the last moment before release. It was not designed to accomodate a weapon that shoots long range through an unlimited number of walls. Siege was originally line-of-site only, and I have argued consistently that it should be changed back.

    Number 2. Without having claimed at least a few other resource nodes, the marines should never have been able to afford building 3 siege turrets in their base (or forests of sentry turrets as other people have seen). This is indicative of a serious flaw in the resource system, not in the map.

    I guess my primary point here is that use or <b>ab</b>use of turrets is not a fair measure of the balance in a map because of the above reasons.

    Everyone is free to make any criticisms they like, but I'm equally free to defend my work.
  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    ns_bast

    It should not be possible for marines to destroy any Hive with siege turrets (ST) build in marine base. Outposts inside Hive areas or near them are not so good guarded as marine base so it is possible to destroy them.

    When marines build ST inside their base and can destroy one of Hives, they are 1/3 closer to victory.
    The maps should be corrected because now it is very easy for marines with this one hive.

    I've seen it today, but they didn't build ST very good so they ONLY were attacking the resource tower that is at entrance to that Hive.
  • NecroNecro &lt;insert non-birthday-related title here&gt; Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
    relic, to fix the bast issue, why not make the hallway turn AWAY from the marine spawn enough so that the siege can't reach it? that would fix the problem?
  • Relic25Relic25 Pixel Punk Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 39Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Sometimes I really get the feeling that no one listens...

    <b>No.</b> The maps should -not- be changed to adjust for this. The range of siege should be adjusted, if not returned to its original LOS function. Be fair. Which do you think would be less work, a 5 minute change to the code to decrease range, or dozens of hours (if not weeks) to restructure a map because of this?
  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    Then we must change the radius of Siege turrets so it would not attack that Hive in ns_bast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    Map is good. Siege turrets radius is not good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I don't think that to build some siege turrets is so hard. Commander on ns_bast only needs to concentrate on Turrets factory, upgrade it and build those 3 siege turrets (and that Hive will never exist). You don't need so many resources for this.
  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    One of the biggest problem with siege turrets firing trough wall is: where in the hell is it firing from?
    And aliens wan't find out soon enough to save the Hive or what ever.

    One of such situations (if I remember good) in ns_tanith with upper right Hive (the middle one). Between the Hive and room behind it is only one wall, but the way to that room is long. (when marines build siege turrets here, they are as close to Hive as possible but route to them from Hive is long).

    Siege turrets shoul really have only LOS fire.
  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    Can you imagine all those silly marines demanding to restore back wall-trough firing to siege turrets once it is changed to LOS? It would be really nice <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
    Please, please return it back as it was!!!!!!

    Heh, heh, heh.

    Siege turretas = llama friendly

    P.S.: I've just got an error that I used too much emoticons (what is the limit?) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    edited November 2002
    i'm afraid the solution can't be so easy

    nerfing the siege cannon might balance ns_bast, but it will unfairly weaken the marines on all the other maps too, where they need these cannons to have a chance against alien encampments
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    Listen to relic hes right... me as a mapper knows that, it can be very deifficult turning a room.. you never know what happens, it can destroy the balance, r_speeds incrase... no.. adjust the siege cannon.. its easyier
  • RazorClawRazorClaw Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7413Members
    Would siege cannons that required LOS to fire be of any use though? Sure it is easier to change the siege cannons but it might completly destroy the game balance. Exactly where would you have any use of a siege cannon if it required LOS to fire? Wouldn't even reducing their range completly cripple the siege cannon, as I've heared some commanders complain that they have very short range already.

    If the siege cannnon is too powerful perhaps it should not be allowed to fire unless a marine can see the enemy structures. The siege cannon itself would not be forced to "see" the structures in order to fire though.

    Do sensors actually detect enemy structures within range? Or does it just not show to the player in any way that it detects them? Like I assumed it would show circles on the map like the scanner but it doesnt seem to show anything.

    The reason I brought up the sensors is perhaps siege cannons would only be allowed to fire IF:

    A) The structure is within sensor range, but this would mean sensors would be forced to have shorter range than siege cannons wich would be a bit silly. Perhaps siege cannons would only fire on structure within half the sensors range?

    B) If the enemy structure is within a marines LOS.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Personally, I think siege range should be reduced slightly, but that they should remain LOS-independent.

    In Relic's and the other mappers' defense, many of the maps CANNOT be changed! I believe that Bast, Eclipse, and Hera (and likely the other maps as well) are sitting at around 99% on at least two map limits (such as entities, planes, and clipnodes). I think remember Relic saying he wanted to include a ladder somewhere, but couldn't manage it because he didn't have the clipnodes. Imagine that - not having enough leeway to put A SINGLE LADDER in your map! Asking him to reorganize whole hallways is insanity. KungFuSquirrel flirts with allocblock full every time he works on Eclipse; I believe he's gotten - and beaten - that error 3 times now. That's 3 times more than many mappers manage.

    /me knocks on wood. (:
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    Despite the siege cannon advantage on bast, I've none-the-less never played a game on that map (as either team) where the marines didn't get turtled up. It probably has a lot to do with psychology since that base is so easy to defend, but it's really annoying!
  • RavlinRavlin Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
    I think the idea, that siege turrets should fire only when some marine can see alien structures is really good. It would be something like artillery: they can fire only on given coordinates (given by soldiers in field).
    Not fire on everything in their radius even if it is behind wall.

    And what the logic behind siege turrets? They are sonic weapons. Sonic means it is using sound. But sound is mechanical waves of air. Every sound wave wil stop on big solid walls - they are barriers to waves. So how can siege turret fire trough wall? (don't try any hi-tech explanation - the game is using standard weapons: bullets and explosives, so what the hell is that siege turret doing there?)
  • natenate Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8321Members
    relic u make it sound so easy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • IdenIden Join Date: 2002-10-16 Member: 1513Members
    Three ideas so far and my opinions on them:

    LOS firing: If you've got a clear LOS without being liquified in the first six seconds you wouldn't need those sieges <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Reducing Range: I love this idea: you wouldn't have to change maps and it'd be great for when the aliens do decide to camp inside a hive and make it impenetrable.

    'Spotting': This is on par with reducing range, a great idea but much trickier to implement than merely reducing range.
  • KungFuSquirrelKungFuSquirrel Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Coil, I'm not sitting on any limits anywhere (highest is around 65%, I think), BUT I've had even slight changes still cause the map to completely die on me... As I've said before, I've come back strong from allocblock:full <b>3</b> times, which is 3 more times than many other maps survive...
  • VoltaisVoltais Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8673Members
    Just a thought from a new poster;
    Why not set the Sieges Range to a worldspawn variable? As it's been pointed out, the structure of a map vastly affects a sieges use, such that on some maps it's fine, and on others (Such as Bast) it has too much range and can easily seal off Half the map from easily fortified positions.

    By setting the sieges to a worldspawn variable (Such as Siege_Range or whatnot) The individual mapper could tweak the sieges range to be appropriate to their map. The inconsistency could be a problem, but wouldn't it make for an Easy solution to the Bast problem, where all a mapper needs to do is tone down the range to something more appropriate.

    Since any official Map would have to go through the NS team Irresponsible mapping (Setting siege range to 10,000 and allowing the marines to turtle and destroy the entire map from base) wouldn't be an issue, allthough I confess to being unaware of the code\map situation and whether it is possible\a good idea.

    I'd also heard that some other property of sieges (Damage I think?) Could be made map dependant, allthough as far as I know this is just hearsay.

    Still, Just a thought.

    -Volt
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Well thought-out, but not a good idea, Volt. In one playtest game, I dropped a siege outside Nothing's Cargo hive in one of the first games of a new patch. I had been forced to place the siege slightly farther back than I would have liked because of OCs in the entrance, but my marines got it and some accompanying sentries up no problem. The siege took out the OCs, then the RT... and then did nothing. Range of Sieges had been shortened in that build, and what had previously been sufficiently close was now just out of range. Failure to take the hive out with that siege destroyed the offensive, as the aliens came to the defense of their hive and killed my marines, and the turrets shortly afterwards.

    My point is that dynamically changing siege range would be a serious headache for commanders who can't learn to eyeball the operating range of sieges.
  • voodoosporkvoodoospork Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7981Members
    I understand your concern Relic, but when it comes down to it, the maps should be built around the game and not the other way around. I don't think many of these initial maps will survive long without changes anyway. I don't think any of the original CS map are still played really. It wasn't your fault that the siege gun's range was set after you had already designed the map, and it isn't fair that you should have to entirely rebuild a very complex map to accomodate this, but it is far more likely that the map will be changed/scrapped than los being added to siege guns. The range might be shortened, but not really significantly.
  • VoltaisVoltais Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8673Members
    Hmmm, Hadn't really thought of that...

    However, what if the command interface was updated to display Ranges before placement? Such as the range of an armory ( for weapons drops) an observatory, or, in this case, a siege turret. That would allow the commander to better eyeball Siege ranges as is, and would drastically reduce that drawback of Map specific ranges. Not sure how easily it could be done or if it would truly fix the problem, but it could be a nice addition to the interface and would help remedy any eyeballing problems that currently exist, and would definitely exist in the variable siege range scenario.

    As always, just some more thoughts; I'm not sure how important this issue is on a whole, since it doesn't seem to be a big problem on most maps; still, the affected maps could definitely use some fixing, and it's been noted in the past that rebuilding is, in some cases, out of the question.

    -Volt
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