Spreading The Good News

BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
edited November 2002 in Kharaa Strategy
to the unbelievers
you know, i wouldnt be sure this actually required a thread, but its been bugging me.

i cant recall one game recently, where i havnt been arguing with some nsplayer or another about the alien resource structure and why we only need one or two gorges. ive been in a few more without but i still see a whole lot of times where i get **obscenity**, and so does any other person on my team who knows half a whit of whats going on. Personally, its beginning to ruin the game experience for me. see, i dont ALWAYS want to be the gorge, but if im not. then weve got 7 nsplayer gorges.

i think weve got to figure out some way to tell new people, nicely, how this system works. and to make it simple would be sweet as well. its really tough educating these people when there are still loads of discrepancies within the comunity of "educated" ns players.

I propose several things:

1. a quick and easy lesson we could give the new guys, on how the resource system works.
2. a group of people who are specially trained and ready to spend time simply teaching new aliens how the game works.
3. some sort of way to FORCE someone to devolve from gorge.


1. teach em
ok, i think we should write up a "lesson plan" very simple, 1-2 paragraphs, easily worded. something that we could just spit out and they would get. weve got to present a united front. develop some kind of doctrine that all of us agree with (not on detailed things, just the resource dealy) so that every new person will hear the same from several different people. I could even write a sample:

The resource system for aliens works like this: All of the resources collected by the alien team is devided equally among the players, the exeption being gorges. they get three times the normal share of resources because they hve to use more of them, they are the builders. So, all of the resources in the alien team are shared, they are simply divied out and then left to the discresson of the player. now, what people dont realise is that the "pool" of resources left over after everyone has thier max amount of resources, gets distributed in accordance to who needs them. for example, if everyone is maxed out, with the exception of a gorge, who is saving for a hive, all the resources will be going straight to the gorge. so he wil be getting them very quickly. But, if i decide to evolve to lerk, say, and ise up my 33 resources, that means that now i am empty as well. so the resource pool is being devided between 2 people, and the result is, the gorge begins getting them more slowly. now, imagine if thier were multiple gorges, the resources get devided slower still. so, its for the good of the team for you to stay a skulk for nw, and bug marines, get it?

yeah, that was a little long winded. but thats the general consensus right? i mean, thats what everyone believes as far as the alien resource structure correct? if not, then feel free to let me nknow where i have made mistakes, so i dont continue telling people the wring information smile.gif

anyhoo, i feel thats the general gist of whats going on. ok, what we need is to cut that down, and make it so easy to remember that the new guys will spread it around.

2guide em
now, i know that the NS guides exsist for this sole purpose. problem is, ive been playing since release, and ive only seen one. one i learned from someone who didnt even know what he was talking about. (not the guide, someone else) and i had to un-learn that a few times over, until this point, where i think i actually know how the game works smile.gif. i think we should form some sort of unnoficial ns guides group of people who just basically know how to play the game, maybe arent experts, but have the time and patience to show new people how to go about thier buisness. i dont know what we would call it, but it woudl only be effective if we got LOTS of people to go with it. and being an unnoficial ns guide wouldnt mean you have to sacrifice playing the gamejust for yourself, because once you show the first new guy the ropes, and watch him for a minute to make sure hes got it, yuou can just politely ask him to pass it on. so that the next newbie in the server has someone to tell them. and for sure you should moniter to make sure whats being said is accurate. but that way you can go enjoy some nice meatpops! marine, its what for dinner!

3. enforce them lastly, there has GOT to be a way to force a devolve from skulk. maybe by a vote, maybe by some kind of class limit, you know, your team already has too many of these, yada yada. i would rather have it be a vote, but im sure that wouldnt fix the problem if nobldy in the server understands whats going on. cuz hey, they want to be gorges too!

edit: this would have to be someting of a last resort. i agree, only if the team is in dire need of a gorge who knows what theyre doing, and the current gorge wont be reasoned with. i mean hey, the marines have the ability to kick the commander. its a sligtly different circumstance, i agree, but the effects are very similar.
good comander= better chance of marine win
good gorge(s)= good chance of alien win.
and vice versa.

im just starting, well... way past starting, to get annoyed with the 4 guys who are "saving for a hive" 3 minutes into every game i play. sometimes reason just doesnt work. and im getting sick of repeating myself to these guys. these problems are plagueing the public servers, i have yet to play in a private one.... (invatations welcome smile.gif ) so thats why i think there should be a way to force devolve.

we all know that a gorge who doesnt know what hes doing can serously cripple a team, conversly, a good gorge can set one up for victory. weve got to get the word out guys, weve just ot to.

feedback is more than welcome, i promise i wont get mad at you for critiquing one of my points. im trying to keep an open mind. smile.gif
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • TacticianTactician Join Date: 2002-02-19 Member: 228Members Posts: 118
    I think that's all kinda drastic. People will learn; you can't expect so much so soon after the first release of this complex mod. Be patient.
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    every time
    wishing with crossed fingers
    leaves nothing to chance
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    edited November 2002
    hey man, the only drastic part would be forced devolving, and like i said, that may not be a necisarry step.

    maybe my expectations are too high. but as long as there are flood of new people coming in, theres gotta be some structure dont you think?
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  • relsanrelsan Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3720Members, Constellation Posts: 914
    edited November 2002
    That's an interesting idea about the hard coded gorge limit. It would be nice for there to be a message that says, there's too many gorges on your team already. However it's possible this could do more harm than good.

    I find a lot of times that there's players playing as gorges but they don't know what they are doing, like building tons of offensive chambers at some out of the way outpost when we don't have two hives yet. In cases like these I think its cool to have more than 2 gorges so the real gorges can play cleanup. After all, if those people weren't wasting their time being dumb gorges theyd be wasting their time being dumb skulks anyway. Neither is effective so I say let em do what they are doing.

    Often when I see more than 2 gorges I call out to see if at least some of them are doing what they need to do. "Is that hive online yet?" "It's coming, I'm at 70" "We need movement chambers at every hive please!" "On it!" If I don't hear replies like that I'll go gorge, limits be damned. Besides it would really kill the aliens if they had two gorges that didn't know what they were doing and nobody could go gorge to fix it. Usually what I do since I'm a competent gorge already is go skulk and whine to my gorges until I start seeing upgrades and hives lighting up. They usually get the picture eventually.
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    im not so sure about the hard-coded gorge limit actually, like i said its a rough idea.

    the reason im kinda backing off of that one is because there are times when extra gorges are needed, or event though weve got 4, nobody knows whats going on, and trying to convince them isnt doing any good, sometimes ive GOT to go gorge, simply because if i dont, we wont have any resource towers, just a bunch of offence chambers placed individually, scattered about the map.


    ok, what do you guys think about the unnoficial guide thing?
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  • Mr_Radical_EdMr_Radical_Ed Join Date: 2002-09-05 Member: 1285Members Posts: 160
    Find a new server! lol tounge.gif
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  • GrabesGrabes Join Date: 2002-07-18 Member: 966Members Posts: 80
  • Evil_GiraffeEvil_Giraffe Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7600Members Posts: 13
    i have really mixed feelings about this. First off I'm lazy so don't expect my to write anything close to a guide, with the exception of my rants about gorge stuff found on these boards. While I do like the idea of some sort of gorge control, I don't know how it shoudl be implemented. I've left more than one server because of a 7 person team 4 of them are gorges, and I could see doom coming in a hail of bullets. Grante dthis was after repeats requests for someoen to gest into something useful.
    Yet i've also been in situations where me gesting gorge and bringing our count a bit high, and then teaching the newbies how to gorge right, saved the team so I'm not sure how to propperly apply this in a broad fashion.
    You in the red shirt! Go see what that noise was.
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    edited November 2002
    i sure do love it when people dont read the entire post.

    im aware that the ns guides are out there to help. and im sure theyre doing agreat job, but the thing is... there arent enough of them! these are people with lives, they cant be expected to sit arround all day and play video games. maybe they do smile.gif but, like i said, we cant expect them to. there are too few of them. im not saying weve got to make tons, im pretty sure most of them were playtesters (?) so, im not suggesting we start handing the title out, just that we creat a similar body whos function is outlined in the post.

    edit: i was talking to grabes and ed, not giraffe, he posted while i was typing i guess. (just to clarify)
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  • NoClassNoClass Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8207Members Posts: 38
    Remember when you were that NSPlayer gorge?

    Mod hasn't even been out a full month yet, give the people some time....
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    i hope you people arent getting the wroong idea here, i want to HELP those nsplayer gorges. that the idea. theyre gonna learn sooner or later, but dont you think sooner would be better?
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  • Pie_oh_pahPie_oh_pah Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7584Members Posts: 57
    When I was first playing, I stayed Skulk for pretty much the whole first game. I watched what the Gorges did, so when I was called upon to be a Gorge I would have a pretty good grasp on it. I know, not everyone is like me, and most people will want to try it all the first game. This is kinda like my post in this thread about new commanders, and it probably wouldn't be the same for Gorges. But I like the idea of a mandatory tutorial or training or something. Just a quick howto for newbies.

    I was on a game recently where we had a team of 10, and there was already 5 Gorges. So, I was Skulk'ing it for a while until I noticed we hadn't gotten a second hive yet. When I go scouting I find that both are being invaded by marines. Not strongly, mind you, just enough to make it obvious that no one was trying to get a hive. I never did find where those Gorges were all at, but they were all still alive so they obviously weren't doing much. After cleaning out one of the hives (solo, of course), I try to get one of them to start the hive since me turning Gorge would be wasteful. Anyway, no one ever came or even responded. Five minutes later the marines came back in and pushed me out. No one ever came to help. I know teamwork is what the marines are about, not as much for the aliens, but that was just sad.

    Not sure what my little story means, just thought this was on topic enough to vent. I doubt the tutorial idea would work for Gorging, but if someone could get it to work, I'd send 'em money... or a cookie... or maybe an e-mail saying "thanks".
    --All lerk and no play...
  • KriguKrigu Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7850Members Posts: 21
    BTS, I'm 16, most of the players I know are about my age or even younger. I do the highest school level here, and to be honest, I thought I had it, but now I don't get the shite of it :S your text's structure is kinda confusing me and your 1000 words of information didn't help me. Maybe you can do me and a lot of others a favor and make the resource system clear.

    What I *think* you mean is that the more gorges you get the less % of the totall resources the *normal* players get. Right?

    Concluding: that sucks.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong and, as you can see in my signature, I luv being a gorge ^_^
    [ Member of the Commandos - http://www.team-comm.tk -#comm @ Quakenet ]

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  • BralkeinBralkein Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8218Members Posts: 5
    Maybe there needs to be a "learning mode" or something that gives newbies a warning before they do something that's gonna **obscenity** people off, like going as gorge when you already got 2, going as a commander on your 1st game, etc. Everyone's gotta have a first time at being a commander/gorge, but for Christ's sake, I wish people would do it when they learn about the game a bit first.
    I do not accept any responsibility for my actions. Any of them. Yeah.
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    QUOTE (Krigu @ Nov 15 2002, 01:05 AM)
    BTS, I'm 16, most of the players I know are about my age or even younger. I do the highest school level here, and to be honest, I thought I had it, but now I don't get the shite of it :S your text's structure is kinda confusing me and your 1000 words of information didn't help me. Maybe you can do me and a lot of others a favor and make the resource system clear.

    What I *think* you mean is that the more gorges you get the less % of the totall resources the *normal* players get. Right?

    Concluding: that sucks.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong and, as you can see in my signature, I luv being a gorge ^_^

    dude, im 16 as well.
    ok, im sure that its possible to phrase it easier. remember that i posted it as sample thing, im sure someone could put a little time into creating a secinct, pithy little tutorial that we could use, but im not sure i could do that without being too wordy.
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  • OttoDestructOttoDestruct Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7790Members Posts: 3,231
    You could just be patient, wait for Adminmod to support NS, then tell the server admins of wherever you play to set a limit to the gorge's (If the evolution system is anything like classes on TFC it shouldn't be hard to do this).

    And now a lame emote icon cartoon by Otto Destruct

    asrifle.gif Ho hum I guess I'll ignore the commander and go rambo style


    asrifle.gif Where them aliens at I wanna kill sometin!!!


    asrifle.gif DIE DIE DIE skulk.gif RUN AWAY RUN AWAY!!!


    asrifle.gif Now where'd he go off to?.....


    skulk.gif CHOMP CHOMP!!!! asrifle.gif AHHHHH!!!! *SPLAT*


    skulk.gif RAWRRR!
    user posted image
    Life is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
  • Canadianmonk3yCanadianmonk3y Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8465Members Posts: 440
    Aight, The way I understand post #1's explanation or resource sharing is:

    First, there is a sharing question:
    Lets say the hive mines 10 minerals.
    Does each player get 10 resources or 10/# of players resources?

    Second, I take it that gorges get 3x of a normal share of resources...
    Hive has X resources

    If the resources were given out as everyone gets 10 when the resourcers mine ten, then the gorge would get 30 by then correct?

    If the minerals were split, then on a three player alien team (one gorge, two not gorge), the resources would go:
    3x+2x=5
    gorge=6 resources
    each non-gorge=2 resources

    OR is it somehow some other way of resource sharing, or is my assumption of the gorge getting more resources from post #1 wrong?
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    edited November 2002
    its like this, say for the restowers pull in 5 resources, and there are three players on the team. one is a gorge, the othre two are skulks. the gorge would get 3, theskulks would get one each.

    basically, the gorge counts for three people. so, if there are multiple gorges, then the gorges get less, because the resources must get devided into more people. get me?

    there are a bunch of threads that go into this in depth. i wasnt trying to create another one. this thread is proposing ideas on how to solve this (as i see it) problem as quickly as possible.


    ottodestruct.... did you cotribute anything with thatlast post? were already talking about the set gorge limit, pros and cons for that... so basically, you didnt really say anything...
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  • WoLLyBoYWoLLyBoY Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8687Members Posts: 23
    HI, Guys. i'm new here, but I wanna help some Aliens strat, because half the time i have to go alien, for team balance. Well if I gotta do it, fine, i liek aliens skulk.gif X asrifle.gif =Dead Marine wink.gif But when i play marines I'm good to. I'm a competent commander (Mind you this was my second game commanding, but we won, and the person who told me was a Guide xD) and a Able Marine. But I'm alsot good on alien, now. Even with its unfamiliarty, the most n00b player cane get help. I liek the idea of it being Orginized. Anotehr HL MOD out there (Some of you may have heard of it;)) called Day Of Defeat has an orginiztion out there liek this. Its called OwP, Online Warfare Pact. Um i dont have the link handy, but check them out if you can. If this is what you mean, contact me. I will help you. I cant do much outside of game, but i can get us help. Find competent and able players who want to help. Well gimmie a e-mail @ [email protected] . biggrin.gif

    And BTW i could help with a strat guide thats maybe a little longer, but helps to tell new Unofficial Guides how to Properly Guide someone out of Newbdom.
    Anyway, good idea, but forget working on gorge limits or voting them off, just set some stuff up for everyone on an easy to get to site, maybe with links from planethalflife, or some such, and have everyone distribute it, yada yada. anyway enough rambling, e-Mail me, d00d i love this mod so much, i wanna marry it wink.gif
  • FieariFieari Join Date: 2002-10-22 Member: 1566Members, Constellation Posts: 872
    I'm considering making a script that will say_team line by line tactics explanations, with a wait or two thrown in between to give reading time. Just need to think what to say every time...

    That kind of script won't auto-kill me, will it? Well... even if it does, it'd be worth it.
    float o=0.075,h=1.5,T,r,O,l,I;int _,L=80,s=3200;main(){for(;s%L||
    (h-=o,T= -2),s;4 -(r=O*O)<(l=I*I)|++_==L&&write(1,(--s%L?_<L?--_
    %6:6:7)+"123456 \n",1)&&(O=I=l=_=r=0,T+=o/2))O=I*2*O+h,I=l+T-r;} user posted image
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    thats a good idea. that way we wouldnt have to type it every time.

    so what do you guys think about the whole volounteer guides thing?
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  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    i understand that getting the word out is the best idea, but all im saying is thatthere should be a way, for emergencies, when a person could force devovle.

    the marines have tha ability to kick the commander, as should aliens have the ablility to kick gorges. although they are played different, they have much the same role. support-leader
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  • PeregineDivePeregineDive Join Date: 2002-07-15 Member: 951Members Posts: 161
    BTS, we have something in common my friend!! Almost everygame, someone is cussing me out, calling me a n00b, and other **obscenity** for telling people we have to many gorges when there are 4 gorges and 4 skulks in an 8v8. Hell, I have been following this game for over a year and a half... but that doesn't matter! I'm a n00b people are ignorant and can't figure out what I am trying to tell them. I swear... it just pisses me off most of the time, I even ask nicely!!! And people ask why we're loosing when stupid newbs are building RT's right outside the marine base when they could be building at hive locations.... mad.gif

    -PD
  • absentabsent Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8378Members Posts: 93
    Resource model for dummies:

    Let's say you get 5 resource points a round, and your team has 3 players. 1 is a Gorge, 2 are Skulks.
    Now the Gorge gets 3 points, and skulks get 1 point each.
    Then you get 10 resource points a round, and your team has 6 players. 2 are Gorges, 4 are Skulks.
    Now the Gorges get 6 points, 3 each, and the 4 skulks get 1 point each again. Get it?
  • evoLvingeviLevoLvingeviL Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7802Members Posts: 306
    Bloody kids! (just kidding! biggrin.gif)

    You know how the hive mind voice says "We need builders!" when everyone has decided to run around as a fricking Fade? The same thing should go for when there's more than two or three Gorges. "We have too many builders!" This might give everyone a clue. And if cl_autohelp = 1 , then pop-up help will give the gorges hell.

    Simple enough.

    Heh, has anyone had the hive voice say "This place is a mess!" when the Aliens are losing? I have. It was hilarious.
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    thats a good idea actually, i hadnt though of that. weve got toomany builders. of course, that can be easily ignored...
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  • Canadianmonk3yCanadianmonk3y Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8465Members Posts: 440
    Now that I am enlightened, I realize how much better it is to have only one gorge on a team.
    With two immediately morphing gorges, you get a resource towers in twice the time you would get, compared with one gorge. Another thing is that for every gorge you have, that is one less skulk boxing the marines in during the beginning. Also, you can use the controversial f4 button trick when you die as a skulk to give your gorge(s) a HUGE early game advantage.
    Just being able to secure 4-5 resources and start on a hive before the marines can get out of their immediate territory somewhat safely is priceless. Fades > marines without HA. It is just that simple... Same goes, only more so with fades w/adrenalin... Pure ownage.
  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    see? were already having an impact. now go... and make deciples of all nations.. er wait.. just spread it around man! spread it around.
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  • KriguKrigu Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7850Members Posts: 21
    BTS, you are so right. I finally get you (after your third post).

    1 gorge = 3 players.

    conclusion: don't get more then 2 gorges. indeed adminmod should be able to prevent too much gorges.

    as long as I can be one! wink.gifasrifle.gifpudgy.gif
    [ Member of the Commandos - http://www.team-comm.tk -#comm @ Quakenet ]

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  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    i think peopl ae missing the point of this thread, the gorge limit or foceable devovle is an issue i brought up, but both of those ideas need to wait for clearance from god (er... flayra) and some changes in coding. so, in the meantime, or job is to educate as many people as possible. thats it. no need yelling over voicecom, no need for cursing the new guys out, just teach em. and i really think weshould have som kind of organisation set out to do that.
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  • BTS_SquirrelBTS_Squirrel Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1351Members Posts: 236
    *bump*

    doesnt anyone else have anything else to say about this?
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