In Fairness To The Commanders...
Kitsune
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
...this ain't Starcraft. The controls are a little clunkier until they finish ironing out a few patches, the human opponents are much crueler than any AI, and it's a lot harder to keep things going in the same orderly manner of your average RTS. You could previously count on being able to build up a base in peace, but now...
*get in chair*
*click on build menu*
"OMG!! AAAAAAAHHHHHH! THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!! <sound of gunfire and skulks>"
*build infantry portal*
*Skulk sneaks around people to munch on your chair.*
"HMG plz!"
*hop out of chair, kill skulk*
"HMG plz!"
"HMG plz!"
*get back in chair*
And that's just the first thirty seconds of the game. Gets even worse when l'il Rambos dash off all helter-skelter rather than stay in one nice, unified group. Of course, a good commander would start assigning jobs from the first second to keep marines grouped, but there's always the ones who don't listen.
So, grunts, if your commander seems in over his head, help out and do some of the organizing yourself. Grab stray infantry if you see them, stay as a group, check those ceilings, etc. Short of booting him out of the chair, there's no helping an inexperienced commander, and anyone in that chair is better than nobody at all. A good batch of marines can compensate for a lackluster commander, and it's better for everyone in the long run to cultivate good teamwork habits.
*get in chair*
*click on build menu*
"OMG!! AAAAAAAHHHHHH! THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!! <sound of gunfire and skulks>"
*build infantry portal*
*Skulk sneaks around people to munch on your chair.*
"HMG plz!"
*hop out of chair, kill skulk*
"HMG plz!"
"HMG plz!"
*get back in chair*
And that's just the first thirty seconds of the game. Gets even worse when l'il Rambos dash off all helter-skelter rather than stay in one nice, unified group. Of course, a good commander would start assigning jobs from the first second to keep marines grouped, but there's always the ones who don't listen.
So, grunts, if your commander seems in over his head, help out and do some of the organizing yourself. Grab stray infantry if you see them, stay as a group, check those ceilings, etc. Short of booting him out of the chair, there's no helping an inexperienced commander, and anyone in that chair is better than nobody at all. A good batch of marines can compensate for a lackluster commander, and it's better for everyone in the long run to cultivate good teamwork habits.
Comments
NS does not forgive inexperience. If you even want to entertain the notion of winning, you need a commander who's on the ball.
One problem with newbie commanders that hit me last night (while playing on a team of 4 marines and the commander still didn't have enough time to give me one single waypoint), at the same time a first time commander is trying to figure things out, a first time marine could be as well. The marine doesn't know any better so he thinks the only purpose of the commander is to drop health, ammo, and buildings. Easy enough, so the newbie marine decides to try out commander after only playing under another newbie commander. So the new newbie is commanding over possibly several newbie marines. See where I'm going with this? I know you can vote them out, but it's not likely that they will understand what they were doing wrong. Probably just think the marines were a bunch of idiots and jump to another server to try to get commander. There is now an abundance of clueless marines running for the CC thinking they got it all down.
Maybe there needs to be a test or tutorial or something in-game that they have to complete before joining a game and jumping into the CC. Just to make sure they got the idea down, just some simple building and waypoint practice. Then, if they complete it, it enables them to try out being a commander in a real game. Just a thought...
But nothing torques me off faster than some jerk yelling and screaming about how much the commander sucks and should be booted.. even when we're winning with hardly any problem. Let people learn and just have some fun.. Even if they CAN do better, that's not the point. The game is 2 weeks old for god's sake.
First, you can't be good if you don't practice. Second, if you try to practice, since you're not good, you're likely to get booted. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
First off, you're here. That's a bonus in and of itself. There's a wealth of good commanders posting here, learn from them.
Even when you're doing grunt-work you can practice the things you'll be doing as a commander. At start up, see where your current commander puts equipment. Can you think of a better place to put these things? Why?
Keep looking at the resource total. Not just when you're reloading or you've been told to guard something, but also when in hand-to-hand combat with a Fade. As a commander you'll usually have to pay attention to three things at once, the least of which is making sure you don't store up too many RPs. It's good practice to pay attention to as many things as possible now.
Always be thinking about what you're doing, what the enemy's doing, what you can do to prevent the enemy from doing what they're doing, and what you can be doing to prevent the enemy from doing what it's doing to prevent you from doing what you're doing.
What I want is a proactive solution. Instead of throwing them into the thick of a battle (which can be right at the beginning if the Skulks know what they are doing), maybe there should be a mandatory tutorial. Making a game by yourself with bots is a good idea (I will definitely try it, as my first/only experience in the CC lasted two minutes), but that means they have to already be a part of our community and frequent this site. What about the ones who don't? Like I said in my post, the bad newbie commanders are breeding at an alarming rate. As the game gains in popularity, more people are playing without ever seeing this site. One way to keep a commander from saying "how do I build something?" right at the beginning of the game is to have them learn the basic functions of the CC before they can ruin other marines' games.
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I definitely agree with you Mr Radical Ed. I'm not sure if you were directing that at me, if so then...
In the instance of my waypoint (and orders in general) begging, I had just joined the game. Only four marines on the team so no one to stick with. I'm not the type to just roam around until I find something to do, especially if I don't even know where our current bases are and such. Normally, I'd stick with the pack if I don't have orders. I know sometimes commanders get swamped and if he doesn't have an order for me, I guess he has all he needs covered by everyone else so might as well find something to do. In this case, he had plenty of time. Only <b>4</b> marines. And I waited for well over 15 minutes in the marine spawn area. I wasn't spamming him either. Just a team message asking for an order and one "Need Order" command every couple minutes. He wasn't even talking on voice or team chat. Eventually another marine responded after I asked if I should just "roam around then." The marine just said "yeah." I don't think he was giving anyone orders. How he was still in the CC, I don't know. And, as I said previously, I'm not the type to bad mouth. I just went on my way.
Its just while I was reading all the posts it reminded me of how many games I commanded where the some marines started hating me cause I didn't baby sit them giving them orders, and I don't want someone to tell me that its the commander's job to baby sit, because its not. Thats why I prefer clan based games, but thats a different story. If I come across some marines that need direction than fine, but sit at the marine start hitting the radio commands "I'm waiting for orders" or whatever, or wandering to some hive isn't going to help the situation. bleh -anyway</span>
Well, I see what you mean about having the tutorial for everyone, but it would be difficult to get people into the game. Not many newbies will want to sit through a tutorial before being allowed a game at all. They want to see the action. And <b>one</b> inexperienced marine isn't going to be detrimental to the whole team. But, commanding is different. That might be acceptable when they try to click on the chair and it gives them a "Need to pass training first" message. If they like the game and want to be commander, I bet most of them will go through with it. Not too much to ask, in my opinion...
I also mentioned in a Gorge thread about newbie builders wasting resources or overfilling the team with Gorges that there could be a mandatory tutorial for them as well, but that is probably pushing it.
Unofficially I try to picture myself as an NS guide <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Even though people might read all of the manual, or the forum strategies, or even observe a good commander from the grunts point of view there is NOTHING that approaches the same experience as actually commanding [of course it helps if you have someone guiding you on what to do so you can pick it up faster. Recommending upgrades, telling him what buildings do what and etc] and you are *always* inexperienced (in my eyes) until you've played SEVERAL rounds with *real* people.
Unless they make a tutorial/script that accounts for:
1)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
2)Marines that even though you grouped them and gave them a waypoint they start running around knifing your structures or going off seperate ways only to end up getting killed.
3)Marines that couldn't hit the broadside a comatose onos.
4)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
5)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
6)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
7)Marines that Randomly KICK you from the console because you didn't drop them a welder.
8)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
9)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
10)Marines that don't use the radio commands and instead use voice/text and expect you to be following them all the time because they're just that damn special.
11)Marines that won't leave the base unless you equip them with state of the art q-tips.
12)Marines that don't know how to use the ammo dispenser and continue to reference your mother in unkindly manners because you're not dropping them ammo five feet away from the armory.
13)Marines spamming you with insane messages right from the beggining and continue through out.
Until that script comes out: give the newbie commanders a break. As I was downloading from the first second NS was available and have been playing through I should know that most of you "god like commanders" and "I knifed an onos!" marines were just as horrible in the beggining.
Get down off your high chair now and then and let some others have fun and learn. Save your elitism for the clans who care.
Yeah, precisely what I was thinking. They could do that or a training simulator just like the one for basic Half-Life. Give simple tasks that just give the player a good grasp on all the buttons and some basic strategy (e.g. Waypoints <b>good</b>; upgrading <b>good</b>). Then, after completion of the training or slideshow or whatever, it would give you a "key" to the CC.
...
As for Iden...
High chair, eh? Nice way to make a good point. (Isn't that usually referred to as "high horse"?) Anyway, despite that comment, I know exactly what you mean. I was in that position once and it was quite overwhelming. The last thing a new commander needs is not even know the basics of the CC at the same time all of that is happening. The reason I was presenting this idea of a mandatory tutorial is not so I can feel better than anyone else, but so I can use it as well. That way, my first real attempt won't be those 13 lines you posted along with a couple more of me asking how to do anything at all. Basically, you made my point clearer. Give the newbies a little practice so they are not so overwhelmed that they give up never to return again to the CC... (which is precisely what happened to me).
I played a decent round as commander, and my team agreed, but it was my first or second time. I built up a bit too much near base and didn't expand too much. They got a second hive and we started getting slammed. I felt bad, and apologized for messing that up, though we still had a chance. You know what I got?
Several - "Nah, you're doing alright." ; "We're all learning, man." ; "You're doing okay! We can take the ground back, still."
Not a single - "d00d wtf u sux omg my mom culd cmd my underwears bttr lololololol!"
So yeah, we've got a pretty forgiving crowd out here, and most of us just ride with it even when the commander's really struggling with his first time or the marines are being dorks.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> - "Ssssccrreeeeeee!"
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> .... <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
bad comm =
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> >>>> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
but inexperienced comm =
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> .... <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> >>>> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
I agree inexperienced commanders can still do well so long as they dont get shaken and overwhelmed by the position. And you can help prevent it from happening by keeping newer players in line and suggesting where they go, pointing out turret blind spots, and just really general little things here and there. The worst thing you can do and will generally always lead to a loss is nag and rattle your commander. Remember newer players will generally follow the marines who look like they know what they are doing so lead by example <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Point is. I consider everyone that started playing this game at public release a noob. Myself included. I do not conisder them rookies if they have any gaming experience. Yet we are all learning.
On that note, Anyone been able to ride an Onos yet? I can jump on em and knife em but fall off when they move. This is wrong. Next pact,,,,, PLZ PUT SADDLES ON THEM. Maybe reins too. I dont know..... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
that's not fair. no commander is good enough to supply HMG's at the start of the game. no commander is good enough to both manage the team etc, -and- defend his comm pod all by himself.
those things have nothing to do with how good the commander is.
if the commander is in over his head, it may be because the rest of the team doesnt have a clue.
Once, though, a new commander was insti-booted once he asked about how to build things. Granted, he was doing a really awful job for about ten minutes without asking for advice, so I can see how folks would be irked about that.
In a few months everyone ought to know the ropes fairly well and we shouldn't have to worry about wet behind the ears commanders doing any major blunders. I look forward to that.
but ya, managing orders is the hardest part, simply because of the interface.
Though I was lucky enough to have people like Donza who knew the map well and made up for my short-comings. I did a fairly alright job of placing stuff down and keeping my marines alive through early warnings and health/ammo packs. The research was pretty well handled too, but the freaking waypoints? No way! It's gonna take me a while to get used to waypointing... Especially since it seems you can't deselect marines, and whenever you use the minimap to jump to a location it gives the marines an obscure order to go somewhere...
Must say it was a pleasant surprise when I a couple of guys called for ammo, and when I went to see them they had just taken a defended hive from the marines... If every game I command turns out to have such nice people with initiative, I might start commanding on a regular basis...