More Balanced When D.chambs Aren't Built 1st
Go7
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2553Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2553Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Feels that way, anyway</div> For the past 5 days, i've been playing on the Alien side entirely. Out of, perhaps, 15 games, we won 12. I just lost 2 alien games, but in both games, I purposely built a movement chamber first.. then in the next game.. a sensory chamber first. (I did this because I was very bored of seeing DCs always going up first, and hadn't experienced a game where this wasn't so in a long time.)
In both games, my team got pretty upset that I did that. "Why the hell wasn't a DC built first?!?!?" they said in the first game, which we soon lost. In the 2nd game, a DC went up right away.. and we won easily. In the 3rd game, I built a sensory chamber first.. people got **obscenity**, and yup, we lost again. (All 3 games were on the same server, and a lot of the same people were in all 3 games)
in my view, the game actually became more balanced when a DC was NOT built first. The real reason we lost both games, i thought, was due to poor coordination and excellent teamwork/aim/situational awareness on the Marines side. Without DCs first, there is plenty of player-vs-player combat.. lots of movement, back and forth. The game is more fun. (Although Marine expansion is very difficult to stop while Aliens must rely almost entirely on players to defend their structures)
So, when building a DC first, victory was so easily assured that it made a huge compensation for our lesser team. We could cut off paths with OC/DC combos, have front-line healing stations, and get Carapace/Redemption. This "strategy" overwhelmed any significant teamwork required on our part, and made any coordination on the Marine part futile as well.
What is your opinion on the DC's importance?
And for those Marine players who often say the Marines can easily win.. because you do win a lot.. are you sure they didn't have DCs up SECOND? If you're attacking OC's without any DC's in sight at the beginning... you'll know.
(Just as a newbie Marine CO can cause massive failure to the Marine cause, a saboteur Gorge can build a non-DC chamber up first.. it, too, causes significant damage.. and requires much more effort on the alien players to compensate for. And since there is no way to reverse the 1st chamber build.. it's like the Aliens don't have a "eject commander" option.)
PS- Since the past 5 days have been nothing but Alien victories w/ DCs built first.. I'm going to spend the next 5 days building Movement/Sensory chambers up first, to see if my victory rate drops significantly. I think it will. So, if you see me join the server you're in.. you better get me kicked or beat me to the 1st chamber build <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
In both games, my team got pretty upset that I did that. "Why the hell wasn't a DC built first?!?!?" they said in the first game, which we soon lost. In the 2nd game, a DC went up right away.. and we won easily. In the 3rd game, I built a sensory chamber first.. people got **obscenity**, and yup, we lost again. (All 3 games were on the same server, and a lot of the same people were in all 3 games)
in my view, the game actually became more balanced when a DC was NOT built first. The real reason we lost both games, i thought, was due to poor coordination and excellent teamwork/aim/situational awareness on the Marines side. Without DCs first, there is plenty of player-vs-player combat.. lots of movement, back and forth. The game is more fun. (Although Marine expansion is very difficult to stop while Aliens must rely almost entirely on players to defend their structures)
So, when building a DC first, victory was so easily assured that it made a huge compensation for our lesser team. We could cut off paths with OC/DC combos, have front-line healing stations, and get Carapace/Redemption. This "strategy" overwhelmed any significant teamwork required on our part, and made any coordination on the Marine part futile as well.
What is your opinion on the DC's importance?
And for those Marine players who often say the Marines can easily win.. because you do win a lot.. are you sure they didn't have DCs up SECOND? If you're attacking OC's without any DC's in sight at the beginning... you'll know.
(Just as a newbie Marine CO can cause massive failure to the Marine cause, a saboteur Gorge can build a non-DC chamber up first.. it, too, causes significant damage.. and requires much more effort on the alien players to compensate for. And since there is no way to reverse the 1st chamber build.. it's like the Aliens don't have a "eject commander" option.)
PS- Since the past 5 days have been nothing but Alien victories w/ DCs built first.. I'm going to spend the next 5 days building Movement/Sensory chambers up first, to see if my victory rate drops significantly. I think it will. So, if you see me join the server you're in.. you better get me kicked or beat me to the 1st chamber build <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Each chamber has a different playstyle.
An oc with a cloaked skulk hiding near can be quite effective indeed. You just need to get the marines distracted and then strike. And it is easier to parasite with cloaking.
Silence is also a very potent ability in the early game.
Maybe your team got distracted when things wasn't done in the "usual" way?
1. Defence Chamber
2. Movement Chamber
3. Sensory Chamber
Usually people complain if you don't build in that fashion.. As far as the one single lone Defence chamber healing as it has, add 2 more to that and see how quickly your healing goes up... Its rather effective, run over, chomp into a few marines, get damaged, run back and get healed up to full, even if the DC's are in another room. Rinse & repeat.
As for my personal preference, I want that armor that the DC provides initially.
Take care.
LS
Plus, Carapace helps a lot to skulks so they can take those few extra hits and if they survive, go heal from a few defense chambers and go out again. Regeneration I found was never really too good for skulk, because you're supposed to harrass the marines and keep them from expanding, and if you have defense chambers, why would you get regeneration? Especially since it's SO slow for skulks. It is however, useful for Fades or Lerks, especially if they're going to the frontlines or trying to take down a marine-held hive.
And Wheezer, just so you know, once your parasite, you become uncloaked. And usually, the team doesn't build Sensory chambers off the bat, and when they do, they usually don't place the extra two for full cloak. A level 1 cloak is useless against good players and gamma tweakers.
B) It is perfectly possible to win without DCs as your first chamber. More difficult, but not impossible, to win without DCs as your first or even second chamber. Trust me; we tested the hell out of it. It requires a distinct alteration in tactics - you have to be stealthier, and you have to react to attack warnings. In the early game your gorge(s) shouldn't be too far from the hive anyway, so it's easy to heal chambers that come under attack. Skulks need to respond to hive sight warnings, and remember that with one hive online, ANY movement chamber will take you back to that hive. Use cloaking or silence; adrenaline in the early game makes lerks very dangerous, and celerity can get you past meager Marine defenses for a tasty IP or CC sandwich.
Adapt, you idiots. (: It's called "Natural Selection," after all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
B) It is perfectly possible to win without DCs as your first chamber. More difficult, but not impossible, to win without DCs as your first or even second chamber. Trust me; we tested the hell out of it. It requires a distinct alteration in tactics - you have to be stealthier, and you have to react to attack warnings. In the early game your gorge(s) shouldn't be too far from the hive anyway, so it's easy to heal chambers that come under attack. Skulks need to respond to hive sight warnings, and remember that with one hive online, ANY movement chamber will take you back to that hive. Use cloaking or silence; adrenaline in the early game makes lerks very dangerous, and celerity can get you past meager Marine defenses for a tasty IP or CC sandwich.
Adapt, you idiots. (: It's called "Natural Selection," after all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A. Nah, with 10 pts per bullet, its 2 bullets. And note that you get this with only ONE level of carapace.
B. Yea, its possible to win with any combo. Possible. But it would seem that if you want to maximize your chance of winning, the DC/MC/SC path is the way to go.
What irks me is that the cloaking upgrade is the only one mostly negated by a fairly cheap marine upgrade. Not much running away from the marines, up on the wall, wait for cloak to kick in .. and then, fully cloaked, get killed directly because the marines fires around the last spot the motion tracker showed them.
Ah, I'll make this post in suggestions instead.
Forward Sensory Chambers? I have been in games where Gorges built them in other locations. Like close to marine bases.
Nothing like a bunch of aliens purposely running into turret farms in a futile attempt to stop the "Enemy Approaches" that is playing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over in the hive mind.
PLEASE! MAKE IT STOP! <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> -----> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
b) as I've said countless time, experienced playtester games found no appreciable difference in win-loss ratio when defensive chambers were built 2nd, 3rd, and even when we couldn't build them at all! It is a matter of learning to adjust your tactics. DC MC SC is simplest, and therefore easiest, because it most easily fits the DM skills most players already have. But NS requires a new skill set... and as you learn those skills, you will become equally effective no matter what the upgrade order. It's a question of finesse and new tactics - not one of ease.
For example lv1 carapace would be 30 armor %20 absorb. (For example, i forget the exact absorbsion rate.)
While lv3 carapace would be 30 armor %60 absorb. (For example, i forget the exact absorbsion rate.)
And by absorb I mean negates that much damage entirely, which makes a huge differance.
b) as I've said countless time, experienced playtester games found no appreciable difference in win-loss ratio when defensive chambers were built 2nd, 3rd, and even when we couldn't build them at all! It is a matter of learning to adjust your tactics. DC MC SC is simplest, and therefore easiest, because it most easily fits the DM skills most players already have. But NS requires a new skill set... and as you learn those skills, you will become equally effective no matter what the upgrade order. It's a question of finesse and new tactics - not one of ease.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen DC first and SC first winning games, but I have yet to see MC first work. Cloaking and Hivesight is awesome for ambushing, but the aliens don't actually have anything that requires Adrenaline until they get a 2nd hive, and silence isnt much use without cloaking.
1) Skulks can allow marines to pass them from the safety of a dark vent or high ceiling, then drop behind them and tail them. remember that level3 silence stops ALL sounds of movement, including the high-fall growl. It's also excellent for silencing the very noisy and distinctive sound of a Lerk flapping its wings.
2) Adrenaline as a lerk gives you a leg up on unupgraded marines, and carries over once umbra comes up.
3) Celerity allows both classes to zip by meager early-game defenses to attack the CC, IP, or other important structures. Armories are often neglected, but are VERY good things to destroy if you can pull it off! They're the most expensive and most useful early-game building. Similarly, if you see an observatory rocking, it's upgrading motion tracking - take it out and cost the commander a buttload of RPs!
4) Gorges can use celerity to quickly flee a surprise attack, or adrenaline to more effectively support their teammates with healing spray (though this is more important in the midgame with fades).