Common Marine Team Mistakes
Router_Box
Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">you think its right... but its not...</div> I've just finished my first season as a CAL commander. I've learned a lot about NS, strategy, and how to win. There are some common things that people constantly do on the marine side that are horrible mistakes. Things that in some pubs, if you don't do them, your team thinks you are doing something wrong.
Most of these mistakes come from an ignorance of the resource system in NS, and what the best ways to manage your resources are.
The first of these blunders is locking down hives. Locking down refers to placing a TF and turrets in an empty hive. This does nothing to keep the aliens from acquiring the hive. It will keep skulks and one hive gorges out, but that’s it. 2 hive gorges, fades, and oni will have no trouble making short work of any “locked down” hive. It costs SO MUCH res to lock down a place, and zero effort on the part of the 2 hive aliens to take it back. Don’t do it.
Secondly, you do not need siege cannons to kill many hives. Hives only need 30-40 shotgun shells to go down. 4 people with shotties will drop an unguarded hive in seconds. If you don’t believe me, think of all the co_ games that people shoot down hives in. Once the marines start unloading on the hive, it never takes long.
If you are seiging, don’t drop regular turrets. For each regular turret you would drop, drop a shot gun instead. Those regular turrets and lmg’s wont take down a fade, but 4 decent shotties will. A turret will rarely really kill many aliens, but a good shotgunner will take out enough to pay for that gun in RFK. (resources from kills)
Also, when the hive goes down, recycle the seiges. What do you need them there for? So you can leave and the aliens can eat them?
Third. You don’t need any base turrets. Most people know this, but I still see it. Do not put turrets in your base. Ever. Place mines instead. And for you rines who are placing the mines, place them 1.5-2 feet from the IP on each side, not directly on the ip, and not anywhere else.
Fourth. You need no turret factory at double. Ever. This is what you do. Take a pack of mines. One pack of mines. And place two mines under the legs of each RT on the back 2 legs, and right beneath them. Skulks always go to the back of the RT, and they always pass through those legs cause they aren’t solid. They will NEVER see the mine hidden underneath the foot of the rt. That pack of mines will kill 4 skulks giving you 4-12 res in RFK, essentially paying for themselves and defending double better than a t-farm would.
Fifth. This is for you comms. When you drop your base. Drop the IP as far away from the command chair as possible. Drop the observatory and arms lab on the far wall, and the armory and the pg next to the ip, but on the opposite side of the CC. This way, when you have a lone skulk munching on your base somewhere, you can get out and shoot him. To execute this most embarrassing move, make sure that when you enter the CC you are facing the exact same way you want to face when you log out. When you log out you are placed in the exact same position as you were when you hit your use button on the chair. If you are facing the far wall you only need to take a little bit of aim, and pick off that skulk before he knows what happened.
If you drop your junk right next to the comm. Chair and try to jump out, you’re doomed. The skulk is in biting distance from the beginning and he will notice you get out. If he has to cross the room, not only can you shoot the balls off him, but you can jump back in the chair if he magically crosses the distance. Because of the minimum time you have to spend out of the chair, your done for if you can’t kill him and he’s close to you from the start.
Also commanders, you do not need all your marines in one place at all times. Amazing things can happen when all your marines stick together, but you do want that one Rambo capping nodes skulks have taken down and getting the pg up at the next hive while all the aliens are distracted at the other one. Nothing is quite as satisfying, as a hive going down, followed by a beacon, sell the first pg, drop shotties and rush the other hive.
Please. also don't elec nodes. It costs about half as much as a turret farm, doesn't stop anything but one hive garbage aliens, and takes about 3 minutes to pay for itself. It requires a TF (which you shouldn't have) and its just stupid.
Last thing. Taking alien rt’s down is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than putting marine rt’s up. 6 person alien team on 3 rt’s means fades can be seen at around 3 minutes into the game with decent RFK. Take out those rt’s and gorges to push fades and the second hive drop back to 5+ minutes.
Ok last thing for real. OFFENSE IS YOUR BEST DEFENSE. This is the KEY to NS. How many times have you heard, “OMG get to hive, they have pg tf up!!!!1” No alien will be anywhere but responding to the pressure on the hive. This means that they aren’t eating your stuff. Which means you don’t have to defend double, don’t need to worry about keeping your rt’s up, (esp if you got a Rambo takin care of busted nodes) don’t need to worry about if they are dropping the hive, so on and so forth. The best example of this is after you sack their second hive. Don’t lock it down, hurry to the last one and win the game. Even if a skulk sneaks out and tosses the hive back up, its gotta take so long to build. You can have the last hive down and come back for the garbage hive he threw up no prob. (Rambo can take care of it by himself with a shottie even) AND, AND, AND if that alien thew up the hive, its better than him going fade and stopping your push on the last hive.
So really. Pubs, don’t do stupid things anymore. Or I will cry.
Most of these mistakes come from an ignorance of the resource system in NS, and what the best ways to manage your resources are.
The first of these blunders is locking down hives. Locking down refers to placing a TF and turrets in an empty hive. This does nothing to keep the aliens from acquiring the hive. It will keep skulks and one hive gorges out, but that’s it. 2 hive gorges, fades, and oni will have no trouble making short work of any “locked down” hive. It costs SO MUCH res to lock down a place, and zero effort on the part of the 2 hive aliens to take it back. Don’t do it.
Secondly, you do not need siege cannons to kill many hives. Hives only need 30-40 shotgun shells to go down. 4 people with shotties will drop an unguarded hive in seconds. If you don’t believe me, think of all the co_ games that people shoot down hives in. Once the marines start unloading on the hive, it never takes long.
If you are seiging, don’t drop regular turrets. For each regular turret you would drop, drop a shot gun instead. Those regular turrets and lmg’s wont take down a fade, but 4 decent shotties will. A turret will rarely really kill many aliens, but a good shotgunner will take out enough to pay for that gun in RFK. (resources from kills)
Also, when the hive goes down, recycle the seiges. What do you need them there for? So you can leave and the aliens can eat them?
Third. You don’t need any base turrets. Most people know this, but I still see it. Do not put turrets in your base. Ever. Place mines instead. And for you rines who are placing the mines, place them 1.5-2 feet from the IP on each side, not directly on the ip, and not anywhere else.
Fourth. You need no turret factory at double. Ever. This is what you do. Take a pack of mines. One pack of mines. And place two mines under the legs of each RT on the back 2 legs, and right beneath them. Skulks always go to the back of the RT, and they always pass through those legs cause they aren’t solid. They will NEVER see the mine hidden underneath the foot of the rt. That pack of mines will kill 4 skulks giving you 4-12 res in RFK, essentially paying for themselves and defending double better than a t-farm would.
Fifth. This is for you comms. When you drop your base. Drop the IP as far away from the command chair as possible. Drop the observatory and arms lab on the far wall, and the armory and the pg next to the ip, but on the opposite side of the CC. This way, when you have a lone skulk munching on your base somewhere, you can get out and shoot him. To execute this most embarrassing move, make sure that when you enter the CC you are facing the exact same way you want to face when you log out. When you log out you are placed in the exact same position as you were when you hit your use button on the chair. If you are facing the far wall you only need to take a little bit of aim, and pick off that skulk before he knows what happened.
If you drop your junk right next to the comm. Chair and try to jump out, you’re doomed. The skulk is in biting distance from the beginning and he will notice you get out. If he has to cross the room, not only can you shoot the balls off him, but you can jump back in the chair if he magically crosses the distance. Because of the minimum time you have to spend out of the chair, your done for if you can’t kill him and he’s close to you from the start.
Also commanders, you do not need all your marines in one place at all times. Amazing things can happen when all your marines stick together, but you do want that one Rambo capping nodes skulks have taken down and getting the pg up at the next hive while all the aliens are distracted at the other one. Nothing is quite as satisfying, as a hive going down, followed by a beacon, sell the first pg, drop shotties and rush the other hive.
Please. also don't elec nodes. It costs about half as much as a turret farm, doesn't stop anything but one hive garbage aliens, and takes about 3 minutes to pay for itself. It requires a TF (which you shouldn't have) and its just stupid.
Last thing. Taking alien rt’s down is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than putting marine rt’s up. 6 person alien team on 3 rt’s means fades can be seen at around 3 minutes into the game with decent RFK. Take out those rt’s and gorges to push fades and the second hive drop back to 5+ minutes.
Ok last thing for real. OFFENSE IS YOUR BEST DEFENSE. This is the KEY to NS. How many times have you heard, “OMG get to hive, they have pg tf up!!!!1” No alien will be anywhere but responding to the pressure on the hive. This means that they aren’t eating your stuff. Which means you don’t have to defend double, don’t need to worry about keeping your rt’s up, (esp if you got a Rambo takin care of busted nodes) don’t need to worry about if they are dropping the hive, so on and so forth. The best example of this is after you sack their second hive. Don’t lock it down, hurry to the last one and win the game. Even if a skulk sneaks out and tosses the hive back up, its gotta take so long to build. You can have the last hive down and come back for the garbage hive he threw up no prob. (Rambo can take care of it by himself with a shottie even) AND, AND, AND if that alien thew up the hive, its better than him going fade and stopping your push on the last hive.
So really. Pubs, don’t do stupid things anymore. Or I will cry.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first of these blunders is locking down hives. Locking down refers to placing a TF and turrets in an empty hive. This does nothing to keep the aliens from acquiring the hive. It will keep skulks and one hive gorges out, but that’s it. 2 hive gorges, fades, and oni will have no trouble making short work of any “locked down” hive. It costs SO MUCH res to lock down a place, and zero effort on the part of the 2 hive aliens to take it back. Don’t do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the idea of the lockdown was that the marines can phase to the hive while the Aliens are busting up the defenses. So it's not the turrets that stop the aliens, it's the marines phasing in. The turrets are probably meant to destroy skulks, and delay gorges and fades, so the aliens can't take down the PG. Also, having a PG on the map means more mobility. Since the PG needs to be secured anyways, a hive is the perfect place to put it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fourth. You need no turret factory at double. Ever. This is what you do. Take a pack of mines. One pack of mines. And place two mines under the legs of each RT on the back 2 legs, and right beneath them. Skulks always go to the back of the RT, and they always pass through those legs cause they aren’t solid. They will NEVER see the mine hidden underneath the foot of the rt. That pack of mines will kill 4 skulks giving you 4-12 res in RFK, essentially paying for themselves and defending double better than a t-farm would.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One tactic I've seen is a PG at double, the turrets would be to protect the PG like in lockdowns. The mines would take down those skulks, but they have to keep being replenished(maybe ok cost wise, but you have to keep sending marines over). Also, what happens if there is two skulks and one sacrifices himself to clear the mines?
If an Onos or fade shows up, I wonder if those mines would be enough...
If there is no PG there, will you always reach double in time?
Actually another point i forgot to talk about was the use of the PG. You do not want a PG at every crucial spot on the map. In fact, you should never have more than 3. When I comm, I keep it to 2 unless there is a damn good reason to have 3. The reason for this is simple. How many times has your commander beaconed and yelled to rush the hive through the PG. However to your teams dismay, you have a pg at both hives, and at double, so you have to phase 4 TIMES(!!!) to actually get to the hive. At which time there is a fade and 3 skulks there that maul everybody who comes through one at a time. A special kind of hell happenes when your commander beacons again. Wasting another 15 res.
Keep it to 2 pg's. 3 at the most.
The only reason to have a phase in double or anywhere else is that its a crucial staging point. Like on Veil, as a jump point to the cargo hive. Or Cargo storage on Tanith.
Don't worry about that third hive that has a marine rt, but no PG or TF. Aliens are more worried about the phase gate outside THEIR hive than anything else. So keep pushing those hives they DO hold.
The point of natural selection is to sack hives. You can't do that if you spend your whole game DEFENDING the third one. The most important event in the game is the second hive. Play there, and not at the third. In NS you will ALWAYS: Loose at the third hive, fight at the second, and win at the last.
The argument against two hive lockdowns are 1) they're boring. 2) If the aliens are bad enough to let you do that, you probably could've won quicker by doing something else.
So, there's a glimpse of the side FOR lockdowns up top. Just because it's not a GOOD strategy doesn't mean it can't work in certain circumstances. Commanders who lock down generally go for both hives, not just one of them.
Pubs, don’t do stupid things anymore. Or I will cry. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your whole post culminates quite much here. You dont get that much teamwork in pub easily that the building hive is piece of cake like it should be when undone and unguarded. I also tend to make something to all hives in pub so you wont have 2/3 guys whining about hive defence and how you will lost without it (ironic eh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
plus I think quite a less of pubbies read this forums throughtly.
Most of these mistakes come from an ignorance of the resource system in NS, and what the best ways to manage your resources are.
The first of these blunders is locking down hives. Locking down refers to placing a TF and turrets in an empty hive. This does nothing to keep the aliens from acquiring the hive. It will keep skulks and one hive gorges out, but that’s it. 2 hive gorges, fades, and oni will have no trouble making short work of any “locked down” hive. It costs SO MUCH res to lock down a place, and zero effort on the part of the 2 hive aliens to take it back. Don’t do it.
Secondly, you do not need siege cannons to kill many hives. Hives only need 30-40 shotgun shells to go down. 4 people with shotties will drop an unguarded hive in seconds. If you don’t believe me, think of all the co_ games that people shoot down hives in. Once the marines start unloading on the hive, it never takes long.
If you are seiging, don’t drop regular turrets. For each regular turret you would drop, drop a shot gun instead. Those regular turrets and lmg’s wont take down a fade, but 4 decent shotties will. A turret will rarely really kill many aliens, but a good shotgunner will take out enough to pay for that gun in RFK. (resources from kills)
Also, when the hive goes down, recycle the seiges. What do you need them there for? So you can leave and the aliens can eat them?
Third. You don’t need any base turrets. Most people know this, but I still see it. Do not put turrets in your base. Ever. Place mines instead. And for you rines who are placing the mines, place them 1.5-2 feet from the IP on each side, not directly on the ip, and not anywhere else.
Fourth. You need no turret factory at double. Ever. This is what you do. Take a pack of mines. One pack of mines. And place two mines under the legs of each RT on the back 2 legs, and right beneath them. Skulks always go to the back of the RT, and they always pass through those legs cause they aren’t solid. They will NEVER see the mine hidden underneath the foot of the rt. That pack of mines will kill 4 skulks giving you 4-12 res in RFK, essentially paying for themselves and defending double better than a t-farm would.
Fifth. This is for you comms. When you drop your base. Drop the IP as far away from the command chair as possible. Drop the observatory and arms lab on the far wall, and the armory and the pg next to the ip, but on the opposite side of the CC. This way, when you have a lone skulk munching on your base somewhere, you can get out and shoot him. To execute this most embarrassing move, make sure that when you enter the CC you are facing the exact same way you want to face when you log out. When you log out you are placed in the exact same position as you were when you hit your use button on the chair. If you are facing the far wall you only need to take a little bit of aim, and pick off that skulk before he knows what happened.
If you drop your junk right next to the comm. Chair and try to jump out, you’re doomed. The skulk is in biting distance from the beginning and he will notice you get out. If he has to cross the room, not only can you shoot the balls off him, but you can jump back in the chair if he magically crosses the distance. Because of the minimum time you have to spend out of the chair, your done for if you can’t kill him and he’s close to you from the start.
Also commanders, you do not need all your marines in one place at all times. Amazing things can happen when all your marines stick together, but you do want that one Rambo capping nodes skulks have taken down and getting the pg up at the next hive while all the aliens are distracted at the other one. Nothing is quite as satisfying, as a hive going down, followed by a beacon, sell the first pg, drop shotties and rush the other hive.
Please. also don't elec nodes. It costs about half as much as a turret farm, doesn't stop anything but one hive garbage aliens, and takes about 3 minutes to pay for itself. It requires a TF (which you shouldn't have) and its just stupid.
Last thing. Taking alien rt’s down is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than putting marine rt’s up. 6 person alien team on 3 rt’s means fades can be seen at around 3 minutes into the game with decent RFK. Take out those rt’s and gorges to push fades and the second hive drop back to 5+ minutes.
Ok last thing for real. OFFENSE IS YOUR BEST DEFENSE. This is the KEY to NS. How many times have you heard, “OMG get to hive, they have pg tf up!!!!1” No alien will be anywhere but responding to the pressure on the hive. This means that they aren’t eating your stuff. Which means you don’t have to defend double, don’t need to worry about keeping your rt’s up, (esp if you got a Rambo takin care of busted nodes) don’t need to worry about if they are dropping the hive, so on and so forth. The best example of this is after you sack their second hive. Don’t lock it down, hurry to the last one and win the game. Even if a skulk sneaks out and tosses the hive back up, its gotta take so long to build. You can have the last hive down and come back for the garbage hive he threw up no prob. (Rambo can take care of it by himself with a shottie even) AND, AND, AND if that alien thew up the hive, its better than him going fade and stopping your push on the last hive.
So really. Pubs, don’t do stupid things anymore. Or I will cry. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not a CAL comm... but.... EXACTLY... word for word... my exact strategies, ideas, and practices....
And ur right... Pubs hate it when I (we) are right...... lol
Anyways.... i wish there was a way for (morons) to access this IN-GAME, so i could just tell anyone who diddnt agree with me to read this rather than have to act like a moron over voicecomm via "commandah Ahhnold" , singing celine dion, or spamming waypoints, doing the "trail of meds/ammo" or just simply promising a shottie to the first person to go to the WP, or just beaconing my moron team repeatedly until they cry and go to the WP.... whatever works to get the idiot pubbers to do what i want no matter how wrong it may seem to them...
Good write-up tho dude.... excellent, and for once... ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
~Jason
Mines are almost useless anywhere but ms until you get a phase gate up. You can't afford to go far out of your way to replace them, and if no marines are around the skulks can work right around mines. Nobody is around to make them stop. If you want to hold double, you have to keep the phase gate alive there. There is no other way. Mines help, but in a pub it's roughly as cost effective to let an electrified rt do double duty, protecting both the phase gate and itself. When you factor in unreliable mine placement, and having the marines keep after it, it's pretty much a tossup. If your marines are reliable, mines still win out. Electrifying a node with no gate or extra strategic importance is always a bad idea.
The exception is that a single mine (or two, in the legs) behind an rt removes the advantage skulks gain by the blindspot and forcing your men to close in. If he can't hide because a mine is there, then he can't lure you in and kill you.
The same kind of idea applies to mine placement in bases. Their job is to make it easy on the marines, not to kill the skulks outright. It's actually preferable if the skulk doesn't step on the mine, since then you have to buy new mines. Bullets are free, basically, so you want the skulk to stand somewhere you can shoot him easily.
The problem lies in the players, what happens if ..
marines don't stick together?
marines take too long to respond to your orders?
Of course you might have lost anyway because your team wasn't good enough but you might have lost a chance to win because you did not employ alternate tatics.
There is no way to win a game with a rine team that can't shoot skulks and, if not kill fades, at least repel them. There isn't anything the commander can do about that, and there is nothing the rines can do about it except get better. Sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand of rines <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I usually play with one or two or my clan mates (usually without their tags so we don't get yelled at for stacking) So i don't run into that all too much. If you have a good comm and one or two A+ marines, you'll almost always win.
The first upgrade i get in co_ is mines. Because of this i will NEVER have a negative K:D ratio. Cause every mine you place will usually kill a skulk (if you place them with any skill.) Thats one kill for almost every one of your lives. After that, if you can shoot a gun, welcome to level 10...
In NS, don't say that mines are useless outside MS. Thats the most absurd thing ever. If you have a pg out in the map, you should usually have mines on the pg. If you don't believe me, watch the demo from the CAL semifinals on sunday(Dn` vs. sU) where a lerk from Damage Networks went to go join his teammates munching on a pg in fusion. What he didn't realize was that the 3 skulks and the fade were all standing very carefully to avoid mines. the lerk came in and set off the pack of mines killing all of them. When one pack of mines kills an entire Delta clan cause one lerk didn't see them... thats not useless...
Especially cause you give those rines specific instructions on where you want those mines. If they go underneath the rt legs properly, i gauruntee you skulks wont see them, and they will die. On the contrary, if you have a t-farm, or if your rt is elec'd skulks wont approach it and wont die. ?Look around on these forums for a thread about proper mine placement, i know there is a real good one.
But again, the best way to protect double is to attack a hive. when your on a pub alien team, if you're chewing res nodes while your hive is being seiged, people will let you know what they think of you, and it wont be nice.
Final nail in the coffin: you can send one person to recap double TWICE for the same amount of res it takes to elec both rt's, in which case they will be taken out by a fade or gorge. (15 res per rt, 30 per elec. You can have your capping marine pass through and cap double 3 times for the same amount of res it takes to cap it once and elec it. In which case you will STILL loose it if you don't stay on the offensive))
He said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mines are <i>almost</i> useless anywhere but ms <b>until you get a phase gate up</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
edit . btw, i agree to everything else, except this part:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In NS you will ALWAYS: Loose at the third hive, fight at the second, and win at the last. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
comebacks do happen, even though they are very rare.
that he did.
all the points i made are still applicable though.
re: edit.
well... when you win, it is at the last hive. So you DO have to get there and do your thing, and stop worrying about double and the third.
you don't win the game by taking out the second hive, but your on the right track.
and if you loose, its cause you didn't fight, or didn't win those other battles.
Sometimes you get beat, but you aren't ever going to win if you don't attack the hives. and i'd rather do that with the res and time you save from not doing all these other things in other places.
A single elec node can often prevent alien expansion on that side of a map(granted the aliens need to have thier good players occupied). Additionally a eltrified node is a very good way to defend a phase gate. A good example of this would the the strat of electrifing the c-12 nozzle node and then dropping a pg behind it ( the same works with messhall or power sub junction), this deters skulks from chewing on the phasegate, and although it doesn't stop higher life forms, it certanly gives marines jumping out of a pg a higher life expectancy.
The purpose of mines isn't so much the killing, but keeping your marines and structures alive. The killing is just a bonus, and also sometimes a curse. Getting a kill and losing your building isn't a good trade.
Why would you elec both rts? It only takes one to keep the phase alive. And that's the only important part of the whole minibase.
30 for the electrification protects 15 res worth of rt and 15 res worth of phase gate. It works out. Mines have the potential to protect it marginally more efficiently, but the difference is negligable in pubs.
But you're definately right about having to attack. It's a good trade if you lose an rt or two and they lose a hive.
Comebacks: those generally only happen when the kharaa have much more res than you, but two hives are locked down. They can clear a hive by attrition, and then it's lots of res + 2 hives vs almost nothing. If you have two hives, push the advantage.
The elec rt covering the pg is a good tactic. You guys are right about that. But you should really only have a tf when you are seiging a hive, so if you wanna spend 30 res in the middle of a hive seige its your call as a commander, but i'd rather take that 30, and put it into 3 shotties, or 2 hmg's or a heavy suit or something thats gonna make the guys in the field stronger. The marines themselves are pretty much always a better investment than sturctures. Also mines on a pg i still feel better about than an elec rt on the pg.
Its just in any cal match you're just about never going to see an elec rt. In our whole season it happened to us once. on one rt, and its cause it was aux gen when we had gen on caged. In that demo i talked about in the previous post, where the lerk killed everyone, they had the option of elec'ing the fusion rt to guard the pg, but they left the pg in the middle of fusion with mines on it instead.
mines > elec rt as a guard > tfarm
but i think you just said you agree with that.
on that c12 example you gave, We were scrimming DoM and they went around the corner with it, and seiged pipe from the no-name room with comm chairs blocking the halls. There is no way to stop that that i can think of. Its most likely going to be fixed in beta 6, but exploit it now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
edit.
power sub is a great jump to comp core and i could see that situation. but its the exception, not the norm ya know?
Additionally here my logic for why elc>mines as a pg defence
Mines restrict movement of skulks, and **** of low-health fades, they do absolutly nothing versus prepared higher lifeforms. So for 10 res you have a limited defense agiant skulks.
For 30 you have an unlimited defence agianst skulks, which actually limits their motion a bit more than mines would.
Adionally when you elec <b>You</b> (the comm) control the placement of the defence, as opposed to a pub player of questionable skill, who may or may not mine the pg at all.
In many cases in pub games( this is by no means true in clan games) when you get 3-5 ips up for a 11-12 marine force, the sheer force of bodies can take down a hive more effectivly than 1-2 extra shotties and a 1-2 packs of mines(if there at atleast a few more out there). By keeping the pg clear you let the bodies do the work.
Mines are a creative tool since they can be used in an obvious manner to deny territory or in a subtle manner to kill enemies or at least drive them off. You just have to figure out how to place them.
they spawn in, on the way to humping the armory, walk across the pg on the way and get telefragged.
or they phase in and hump the armory for health stepping over the ip on the way with similar results.
I especially like to place a mine in a darkspot and then camp near that mine. If the skulk even bothers to notice you, it will sure hell not see the mine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
lastly, heres a tip that works with mines killing onos
you can stack mine on toppa each other and make a lil wall. depending on how many mines, it can take down a onos pretty quick. try it out!
A good example is that i was comming ns_nothing and i had rines who were doing a real good job of pressuring GV (the first hive) It was only 3:30 into the game and i had 6 rines down there at silo west. So i dropped a tf and an armory. they got those up and i advanced the tf, and dropped mines. But i also dropped 3 regular turrets, spending the rest of the res. we had ms, maisma, gen, and silo west for rt's. Somebody yelled at me for "Wasting 30 res."
What i had forseen happened. Magically, the aliens pulled off an amazing coordinated push, and killed all the marines. (at this point 3 seiges were up.) When they ran in to take out the structures the mines got 2 aliens. and the turrets got the last 3. leaving only a new fade to whack on the tf.
I beaconed and the team ran back and was able to save the advanced tf from the fade. I dropped welders from the armory there, and we finished the seige ftw.
Without those turrets, we would have lost that tf, and subsequently the armory and the tf. They would have chewed it down to fast to recycle.
So when i say that you don't need turrets ever, what i mean is that you never need turrets unless there is some strange reason, like they are going to guard that attack point in the event the marines have to run all the way there again from ms.
This situation is the --ONLY GAME THIS SEMESTER-- i have commed and used turrets though.
Really, if anything you just cost your team the game by sheer shortsightedness. Not that it matters, seeing as you were pubbing anyway.
^^ Here comes the skill of our community!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I think this is really hard to discuss due the fact you cant speak about pubs and CaLs same time. As i wrote it, it allready looked horrbile. You have pubber who might not know place names or anything and the you have CaLs who can get to top ceiling of cargo on tanith......
Just can`t
I agree with you... Stopping the attack is the worst mistake ever that commander can make. Sadly it is also the most common mistake seen in the public, it doesnt matter how well he can place turrets or build your base... You just cant win if you stop attacking, those hives wont die unless marines attack them. "Attack is the best defence"
As for hivelockdown I would say... If you cant lock 2 hives, then theres no point locking them at all... lets think of a scenario where aliens have just started building their second hive and you order your marines to attack their unfinished hive... your marineteam with upgrades and some weapons can hold off the 1 hive alien team long enough untill the hive is down, now if you choose to start farming the empty location with turrets, aliens will propably have 2 hives when you have your team ready to attack the next hive... and it will be much harder and your team can easily lose vs 2 hive aliens... Locking 1 hive isnt such waste of res, I would rather call it waste of time when you should be attacking the next hive when the alien team still has only 1 hive up
I dont know about you guys but when I com I want my team to obey my commands... If most of my marines are going solo I usually start yelling to them "FFS you ***** *** **** *** move to the waypoint you ** ****** or we will lose this game" by typing or voicecom (and yes im over 18, I dont sound like a teenager). Somehow this usually works, marinesquads regroup in few seconds and move to their waypoints... It has turned many "already lost games" into victory.
And if ur playing against sensory first, DO lock down both hives if u can.
(the first part was written in a not-so-through-thinking moment, look at crisano's post below.. I already knew this, but I have mental lag disease...)
Also dropping more mines at base for soldiers to place around on outposts and what not always outweighs turrets. A sudden full upgraded mine blast on a fade does wonders instead of a single turret. Second observatory saves you in case there is a last ditch Onos base rush and you lose your PG+Obs.
So commander related threads are always viable.
Thats not true, I've commed and won plenty of games with completely retarded marines, and you know what tactic won it? 2 hive lockdown. L33t skulks so busy going for the easy kills they don't notice that middle hive is locked down, etc.
Look you wrote out a nice bunch of tactics, but really it's all been said here dozens of times, look at the stickies?
You know what the worst commanders are? the ones who play with v good clans in leagues...they just can't deal with crap, noob, retarded players...they are used to clean clinical efficient play and when it comes to a bad pub server they can't deal with it. I've seen quiet commanders who take over this guy's chair after he's had his hissy fit and whined about how crap his marines, the quiet comm then proceeds to win the game.
In fact the best commanders I have ever seen are never the ones in the l33t clans, they are unclanned guys who are calm as hell and always adapt to how much their players suck without resorting to freaking out.
I find it simple to comm good players, its much more of a challenge to comm players who are rubbish, they won't build obs? build it yourself in increments...they pick up sg's and run in random directions? watch the ones who have less tendency to do that and give them the sg's...they don't place mines? place em yourself...
The true talent in comming is adapting to the shitness of your team and remaining calm, giving your team every tiny advantage possible.