What The, Fades?
Rapier7
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
I remember early on during the first few betas of 3.0 where I saw a bunch of people complain about how the fade is overpowered, especially in clan play, where all the fades are über.
Now, I've noticed a lot since then, and it seems to me that fades really suck.
I've gone against some good fades, but normally, a squad of 3 HMGers with welders is more than a match for a fade. Even 2 HMGers can bring them down.
Shotguns are really overrated as fade killing machines, because smart fades will blink out if they hear more than one shotgunner, but HMGs can dish out damage both on contact and on departure.
It's not hard to kill a fade. A bog standard hive one fade will take 30 level 0 HMG bullets to kill. That's pathetic, especially considering you'll usually have weapons two about a minute or two before the second hive goes up. So that takes 25 level 2 HMG bullets. Spread out between even two HMGers, let's imagine a scenario.
You're at Station Access Alpha, just outside marine start, there are 3 HMGers there. A fade hears some footsteps, blinks in, and swipes twice. Between the first and the second swipe, if the marines are somewhat competent, they'll start firing. 25 HMG bullets spread between 2 marines (let's assume the third marine died) is pathetic. It's too easy to down a fade that way.
What's your opinion. Which is more overpowered? The fade, or the HMG?
Now, I've noticed a lot since then, and it seems to me that fades really suck.
I've gone against some good fades, but normally, a squad of 3 HMGers with welders is more than a match for a fade. Even 2 HMGers can bring them down.
Shotguns are really overrated as fade killing machines, because smart fades will blink out if they hear more than one shotgunner, but HMGs can dish out damage both on contact and on departure.
It's not hard to kill a fade. A bog standard hive one fade will take 30 level 0 HMG bullets to kill. That's pathetic, especially considering you'll usually have weapons two about a minute or two before the second hive goes up. So that takes 25 level 2 HMG bullets. Spread out between even two HMGers, let's imagine a scenario.
You're at Station Access Alpha, just outside marine start, there are 3 HMGers there. A fade hears some footsteps, blinks in, and swipes twice. Between the first and the second swipe, if the marines are somewhat competent, they'll start firing. 25 HMG bullets spread between 2 marines (let's assume the third marine died) is pathetic. It's too easy to down a fade that way.
What's your opinion. Which is more overpowered? The fade, or the HMG?
Comments
In certain situations, the fade is overpowered. in certain sitations, the lerk is overpowered. But there are counters. That is what is fun about the game. It isn't just brute force. You have to see what the other team is doing, and adjust. If you know they have HMGs, as a fade, you don't go around with low health, and you dont' stay in a room long enough to get hit that much.
Are HAs hmgs to powerful because they can take on 6+ skulks that run in a straight line? no
Are HAs hmgs to powerful because they can take on 6+ skulks that run in a straight line? no <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ACcually LA can do that. I think someone just counter that 1 rine with start ammo can kill 9 skulk
They are guerilla warfare aliens, they have no real power, they CANNOT stop a determined group of marines.
When clip is empty and fade is gona run do NOT reload but switch to pistol and SHOOT THE BASTARD.
Now if we all did this, we would have underpowered topics apear real soon. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is why it is important to aim very well all the time as a marine, so you kill the fade the first time he commits, and to not all reload at the same time, so you give your squad a safetynet against well-timed alien squad tactics if you can't kill him the first time. In fact, it would be nice if one person reloaded at a time to be safe. Same with building. Also, if you're standing behind someone, you cannot shoot through them. Don't even shoot a bullet, and take the front when the guy in front falls back or dies, so there's no waste of ammo. Conversly, if you can circle around an attacker, your whole squad can shoot it while you stand in it's way and put an obstacle in the alien's line of retreat.
Another point is that seldom are fades alone. Most pro teams plan for two fades, since one of them can be the harrasser and the other one can be the hitman, and combining the two techniques, the pair of fades can decimate a marine squad not ready for those tactics, and if skulks or the lerk aren't busy elsewhere on the map, combining lifeforms to assault marines is even more complex for the marines to fight against and win. Avoiding gas, picking off skulks, timely reloading while the fades regen their health, excellent squad positioning, and commander support are all necesary in a case like this JUST TO HOLD GROUND.
This is how NS works. Complexity upon complexity upon complexity. The smarter your team thinks and works as a whole, the more absolutely mindboggling stuff you can get away with doing to the enemy. So no, I don't think the fade or the HMG is unbalanced.
The HMG is like a firehose that shoots pain. You aim it and spray it and everything except the hive will die in no time flat if your shots are connecting a lot. But like all things, you can only aim it one direction at a time, no matter HOW good you are. Even just two skulks with spot-on timing, upgrades, tactics and a proper ambush spot can take out a light armor HMGer. Both skulks might even be able to survive the ambush if their game is really on that night. 2-4 resources for each skulk for an upgrade or two, versus a 15 resource gun and who knows how many resources worth of arms lab upgrades. If the HMGer manages to kill both skulks, he wins back from between 2 to 6 resources for his team. If one of the skulks manages to kill the marine, he gets 1-3 res back toward the cost of his upgrades, and the marines temporarily lose control of that mighty 15 resource gun, permanently if no marines are fast enough to get there before it melts away.
Similarly, the fade is a marine-killing machine, but for 52-56 resources, you can still be killed without the marines spending much money if they do something smart and unexpected and you don't see it coming. Even zero-cost LMGs and pistols can take out a lonesome fade if he's a little slow, and just two 15 res HMGs can DESTROY that 50+ resource lifeform of yours before you even notice that your view is sideways and your name is showing up on the screen AFTER a gun icon and someone else's name. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Of course, marines have to outlay a lot of money just to be able to drop those guns. A zero-upgrade, zero-cost skulk inside an undefended marine base can still make a huge mess if the marines don't take sudden action. Lets say the marines have their armory upgrading for HMGs and GLs, and that zero-cost skulk takes it out before they have the money for a prototype lab. That FREE SKULK just cost the marines 3 minutes of upgrade time on the armory, the resources for the armory itself, and the resources used to upgrade it, and they won't have HMGs or GLs for a minimum of three more minutes of game time.
I guess what I'm saying is, everything and nothing is unbalanced and the team matters more than their technology?
Now, I've noticed a lot since then, and it seems to me that fades really suck.
I've gone against some good fades, but normally, a squad of 3 HMGers with welders is more than a match for a fade. Even 2 HMGers can bring them down.
Shotguns are really overrated as fade killing machines, because smart fades will blink out if they hear more than one shotgunner, but HMGs can dish out damage both on contact and on departure.
It's not hard to kill a fade. A bog standard hive one fade will take 30 level 0 HMG bullets to kill. That's pathetic, especially considering you'll usually have weapons two about a minute or two before the second hive goes up. So that takes 25 level 2 HMG bullets. Spread out between even two HMGers, let's imagine a scenario.
You're at Station Access Alpha, just outside marine start, there are 3 HMGers there. A fade hears some footsteps, blinks in, and swipes twice. Between the first and the second swipe, if the marines are somewhat competent, they'll start firing. 25 HMG bullets spread between 2 marines (let's assume the third marine died) is pathetic. It's too easy to down a fade that way.
What's your opinion. Which is more overpowered? The fade, or the HMG? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
shotgun can dish out more damage in a single second than an hmg can.
Lets say, 2 people with lvl 3 shotties see a fade. One person will shoot the fade. In the next split second, the teammate will fire and by that time, the first shooter will have discharged his shotty shell and be ready to fire again. (3 full blasts, to kill a fade with lvl3 shotty i believe. Dunno about b5). By the time the fade turns aroudn or looks up to pancake, he's already screwed or near death and MUST go back to the hive/gorge to heal.
In clan matches, where i'm assuming everybody has good aim, it's common to drop shotties to deal with fades simply because of its speed and cost; it's a cheap and efficient solution. In the time that it takes the hmg to deal the same amount of damage the shotgun does, the fade is already long gone. In fact it will probably do only half, if not less, damage than a shotty would do and that's also dependent on the room where the conflict is taking place. If the room is small, a shotties are better. But if its a long and narrow hall way an hmg is a better solution.
Now rapier, you have a good point with the hmgs. But if you consider the number of teammates you can arm with better guns and the finite amount of res you have, shotties would be a better alternative (If you have a ton of res, then do a mix of shotties and hmgs..just my opinion -.- since different people are better with different guns).
For clanning this is important as both sides are constantly pressuring the nodes across the map.
Pubs too are not that different. Usually on big servers there's around 12-16 people per team. To equip an entire team with shotties would only cost 120-160 res where as hmgs cost 180-240. That's a 60 res difference. You can drop 4 jps/HA or 15 welders with that res instead to further bolster your rine's survival rate.
And in response to your question, I don't think you can really say either one is overpowered. It's all dependent on whose playing. If the fade is smart, he'll look into a room first, blink in to draw fire from your guns, then blink out or blink in, then kill and leave. If the fade is so n00bzor he'll come in and try to kill everyone so of course the HMG will pwn him. There's no definite answer to that question.
pistol 0 res
fade 50 res
LET EM DIE. aslong as they all get pistol out and shoot the freaking 50 res fade let em die. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, if you're playing against a fade with absolutely no skill whatsoever.
It's too easy to go into a group of LMGers, as their bullets run out so fast, and you can blink around to minimize damage. Plus, half of their bullets hit their teammates, because they aren't all in one massive line like in a Greek phalanx or Roman legion.
there's just that res and advanced armory.. thing... you know... =P
^^^
And fades are HUGE targets too. It's a never-ending source of confusion to me how so many people have so much trouble with something so basic and so easy to learn.
exactly. I think rapier is talking about pubs in general though. Shotties are cheaper and deliver a decent load of damage per shot. Although the clip is small and reloading is super long, any rine, albeit new or experienced, should be able to take out more life from the fade than if they were given an hmg. It's a better idea for new players to learn to kill with a shotgun instead of an hmg simply because they can't anticipate where the fade is going to go next.
There's no point in handing some new guy a gun that costs 15 res and has 375 bullets if only 10 are going to hit the fade and the other 365 are going to be unused/wasted on the wall. Good fades will come in for a quick strike, then blink away or try to pancake until their victim is dead. New players don't know this and will spray the bullets on everything BUT the fade.
Average/Experienced pubbers know fade movement patterns and have actually played as them, so they can easily follow them around with their crosshair, dealing a payload of damage to them as they try to blink all over the place.
HMGs are actually ideal for wider rooms since their conical spray is limited whereas the shotgun's pellets spread out more as the distance between the shooter and the alien increases. But still hmgs should be handed to only experienced players or when an onos comes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Especially against fades, reckon you have two marines with shotguns, a fairly marine-biased corridor a'la cargo > dome, the fade can just about blink in, swipe one of you once, and blink away. Same situation, with HMG's, and the fade will die before he hits lastinv to switch back to blink. Of course, a fade with half a brain wouldnt blink in, but that's beside the scenario.
and you better hope that the guys you handed the hmgs to can aim otherwise you just wasted 30 res on 2 guys when you could've spent 20 res and dropped 5
medpacks with the left over 10 res that they'll need for sure. A Fade will die the same to 2 marines marines with shotties if he even comes within an inch them.
So both guns have their place for downing fades. To break Fades, you need HMGs to be the anvil and shotguns and LMGs to be the hammer. Well, it helps.