<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Nov 11 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Nov 11 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 10 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 10 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I don't "support" rasing animals for meat, its just sort of a nessesity. Hunting on the other hand isn't. IMO its just cruel, at least the way we do it; if you want to kill something to satisfy your predator instinct you should do it properly, armed only with a knife or a bow at best (I'd still consider that cheating a little, especially if you use a compound bow), then it will mean something other than "I was the on with a gun". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? I'd have thought that tearing an animal apart with your bare hands (or whatever) would be more painful for it than being shot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but it gives the animal a chance to fight back or to run away. If you manage to catch a rabbit with your bare hands and break its neck, thats an accomplishment because rabbits are fast and manuverable.
And of course it goes without saying that no matter how you kill it you'd better eat it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To suggest that people should hunt with their bare hands is to suggest that a cheetah only run at 30 mph or that a wolf only bite once.
You are suggesting that people hunt animals without the tools that evolution equipped us with. What is the difference between a human using a spear and a clownfish hiding inside an anemone? This is life and death. Fair doesn't enter into it. You can be damned sure that if lions had index fingers and figured out how to craft/fire weapons that they would be feasting on more water buffalo.
I don't hunt for a thrill or accomplishment. I hunt for food.
I have a very hard time eating anything that's.. mammal :/ I dunno, after seeing the way pigs are forced to live in a very very small cages for their entire lives and then they are tranported to a slaughter houses, their snouts being pinned on a hook while they are still alive and then electrocuted... some of them aren't dead after that, some survive... and then they get CUT in half.. SLOWLY! while they're still feeling every bit of it... and pigs are smarter than dogs... I dunno.. I still eat hamburgers but... It reminds me of nazi concentration camps. ... I really should be a veganist, I'm such a hypocrite. =( why not just genetically engineer a 'meat-sac' without higher brainfunctions? =(
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 11 2004, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 11 2004, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well then, why go to the woods when you can make use of the logistic systems that bring the food to your supermarket that evolution equipped us with? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats. I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 11 2004, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 11 2004, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Nov 11 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Nov 11 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 10 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 10 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I don't "support" rasing animals for meat, its just sort of a nessesity. Hunting on the other hand isn't. IMO its just cruel, at least the way we do it; if you want to kill something to satisfy your predator instinct you should do it properly, armed only with a knife or a bow at best (I'd still consider that cheating a little, especially if you use a compound bow), then it will mean something other than "I was the on with a gun". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? I'd have thought that tearing an animal apart with your bare hands (or whatever) would be more painful for it than being shot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but it gives the animal a chance to fight back or to run away. If you manage to catch a rabbit with your bare hands and break its neck, thats an accomplishment because rabbits are fast and manuverable.
And of course it goes without saying that no matter how you kill it you'd better eat it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To suggest that people should hunt with their bare hands is to suggest that a cheetah only run at 30 mph or that a wolf only bite once.
You are suggesting that people hunt animals without the tools that evolution equipped us with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. Because humans do not *need* to hunt for their food anymore. We raise and kill our own food which is made convieniently available at the nearest grocery store.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is the difference between a human using a spear and a clownfish hiding inside an anemone?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't need to kill a wild animal to eat. You can get meat already killed, butchered, cleaned, and even seasoned or already cooked at any number of convienient locations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is life and death. Fair doesn't enter into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, its not. For the animal it is life or death, for you its just sport or because you want a slightly different tasting meat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can be damned sure that if lions had index fingers and figured out how to craft/fire weapons that they would be feasting on more water buffalo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course they would. But what if they were to discover agriculture and start raising livestock?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't hunt for a thrill or accomplishment. I hunt for food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Food is available to you at your nearest grocery store. You ahrdly need to run out into the forest and shoot a deer to eat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself?
<!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 11 2004, 04:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 11 2004, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lot of you seem to suggest that what I do is somehow wrong or immoral?
How is me killing the animal any different than you paying someone else to kill it for you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not really. However, I consider one a 'nessesary evil' if you will, making the other unnessesary.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 11 2004, 04:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 11 2004, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lot of you seem to suggest that what I do is somehow wrong or immoral?
How is me killing the animal any different than you paying someone else to kill it for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not really. However, I consider one a 'nessesary evil' if you will, making the other unnessesary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I see nothing evil about it. If you feel that eating meat is immoral or evil then you must stop eating meat.
There is also the issue of self reliance. I am quite confident in my ability to survive in the wilderness with nothing but what I was born with and my knowledge of nature. I frequently go into the woods to camp or hike or just get away from the city. Do not try to distance yourself from nature. To do so is to forget yourself.
What you suggest is that I put my survival into the hands of others. At times, it is impossible to avoid (air travel, driving, etc) yet I try to keep that to a minimum. How many of you can say that you could survive on your own?
Now that my semi-spiritual rant is over. I find it extremely amusing that you feel I should defend my actions in any way. The animals I take are killed in the most humane and swiftest way possible. They are not kept in cages or force fed. How many of you can say that about your McDonald's hamburgers? (If you even know what is in them)
I realize I -need- to eat other species becuase of the vitamins etc. I realize I -need- to eat them, because that's the way nature works and I'm also part of that..
That way I come to terms to that is by (well mentally, not out loud, I don't want to creep out other people <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) apologizing to whatever I eat, like the aboriginals do.
I am heading home now. But I will continue this conversation then.
Human beings evolved as omnivores; it is what allowed us to survive. Deny that aspect of your nature if you wish but do not expect me to do the same.
Just because a new technology has been developed does not make the old ways wrong. There is no real reason you have presented to me as to why I should adopt your lifestyle. I hunt for my food and you pick it out of a freezer. I do not tell you what clothing you should wear or that you eat your cereal incorrectly. Perhaps we should suggest that since homosexuals do not HAVE to have sex with their same gender that they shouldn't because it isn't absolutely necessary?
The arguements above contain many red herrings yet they do illustrate the comparisons that are being made. Just because there is A way doesnt make it the ONLY way.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes that is what I am saying.
I had to eat some beef while I was in college and to be honest I found it to be disgusting. It was fatty and soft and not at all what I was used to. I did not know where it was from or how it was raised.
The only meat I eat is the meat that my father or I have killed ourselves.
<!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 11 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 11 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes that is what I am saying.
I had to eat some beef while I was in college and to be honest I found it to be disgusting. It was fatty and soft and not at all what I was used to. I did not know where it was from or how it was raised.
The only meat I eat is the meat that my father or I have killed ourselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case I suppose I can't say that theres anything wrong with what your doing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 11 2004, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 11 2004, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well then, why go to the woods when you can make use of the logistic systems that bring the food to your supermarket that evolution equipped us with? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would probably be more convenient, but if they're prepared to go hunting, then why<i> not</i> go to the woods and use a gun?
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 11 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 11 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 11 2004, 04:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 11 2004, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes that is what I am saying.
I had to eat some beef while I was in college and to be honest I found it to be disgusting. It was fatty and soft and not at all what I was used to. I did not know where it was from or how it was raised.
The only meat I eat is the meat that my father or I have killed ourselves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case I suppose I can't say that theres anything wrong with what your doing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for looking on this with an open mind. However I would also argue that there is nothing wrong with hunting for your food even if you purchased it from the store from time to time.
My point is that there is nothing wrong with hunting in general. I find sport hunting to be reprehensible yet it is not my place to say that someone cannot do such a thing but that they should not do such a thing. That is a personal choice they have to make for themselves.
I cannot be a vegitarian. It is not in my nature and I would feel as if I were denying myself. I respect their views and hope that they respect mine.
Vegans on the other hand, they creep me out a little <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> j/k to each their own. Just don't get too preachy.
edit: I find it mildly amusing that I am munching on some dried seaweed while posting this message.
<!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 11 2004, 11:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 11 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]I find it extremely amusing that you feel I should defend my actions in any way.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen. What's wrong with a little diversity anyway? Eating pork, chicken or cow all the time gets boring. Deer has a much different taste. Where's the sin in treating my tastebuds to a little luxury now and then?
<!--QuoteBegin-Shloom+Nov 10 2004, 12:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shloom @ Nov 10 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We're smarter and able to adapt to almost any enviroment. Look at everything the human race has done, we can go to the bottom of the sea or onto the moon. We can manipluate the genetics of plants and some animals to fit our needs.
Humans are as near to perfection as is naturaly possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the stupidest thing ever heard. You cannot say "smart". Smart can be said only in one specimen. Everybody are smart. Look at the dolphins for instead, they can communicate almost telepatically and maybe they know things what we don't. That makes them smart. Whales can see sound waves as 3D and maybe there are some species who can see different dimentions or levels what we don't see. I suggest you to study some philosophy and make clear of what smartness is. And it is not even clear if we need those things like creating things from different genuies. You should also read the book "Martian Chronicles" what is written by A. C. Clarke. And it is even not clear that humans went to moon. Todays science is same as the religion was in middle-ages. Humans are actually undeveloping, not developing, they don't know how to preserve and they make things complicated with all those rules what doesn't obay another rules. They don't even know what are they creating. Stupidity.
I wonder, what if when an alien lifeform comes to earth and their technic differs from ours and they have come huge way to earth, we don't have technic to travel in such distanses, so that makes them smarter than us, don't you think so? So, they have a right to raise us for food. People are being grown in small boxes, they have born in there and the last thing they see, is a conveiour line what is butchering them or something. They don't have mothers wo would teach them some language, they don't know what is in outside of the box, actually they are not thinking of what is outside of it, they have just been born in there and they think that that is the world - stupid, eh? Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in aliens, do you? Actually you are right, bechause we are the higher lifeforms as you said, we just are and that is it, isn't it so? Whe are at the top of evolution. That also makes us really stupid if we talk about your way. We just haven't seen life on other planets, we don't believe it, just like that box room thing.
Just bechause some lifeforms doesn't have an abilty, doesn't make them stupid. I am pretty shure that EVERYBODY think they are smart. I am pretty shure that animals, like a dog for example, think that they are smart and you don't know how do they see us.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shloom+Nov 10 2004, 12:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shloom @ Nov 10 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We're smarter and able to adapt to almost any enviroment. Look at everything the human race has done, we can go to the bottom of the sea or onto the moon. We can manipluate the genetics of plants and some animals to fit our needs.
Humans are as near to perfection as is naturaly possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what? I agree that humans are 'better' as in they won the planet, but that doesn't mean we are perfect or that we are any different from animals. We evolved from them you know...
<!--QuoteBegin-kabuum+Nov 12 2004, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabuum @ Nov 12 2004, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And it is even not clear that humans went to moon. Todays science is same as the religion was in middle-ages. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Err what? You wanna provide some evidence for that? /me goes and gets his "Conspiracy Theories" book.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am pretty shure that EVERYBODY think they are smart. I am pretty shure that animals, like a dog for example, think that they are smart and you don't know how do they see us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WTH? I think it's fair to say that humans are more 'smart' than other species. Even your telepathic dolphins (lol?)
How would a Dog think of himself as 'smart'? How would he even have a concept of what 'smart' is? He wouldn't.
Heh. If nature gave a smaller brain or something to the dog, and human got the bigger brain, then they are both same smart. Brain is more like physical thing in that aspect. But if someone doesn't use his brain right or something, then it can be said that he is not smart, and this can be only inside species, not between different species. Like human for example. Okey, the moon thing was a bit rough and I ams hure that human has been on the moon, but not the way as we know it. In middle ages or something, people believed that Earth was flat, somebody actually proved that earth was round, but people still didn't believe it. The same thing is with science today. Todays science is like religion, you are stuck on it and that is the only thing. Most people just believe science, underline the word "believe" plase. People also believe that Columbus was the first european man who discovered America, well, there is physical evidence that he was not and that can be seen in England near Glasgonbury. True or not, that is your thing to BELIEVE.
And that last sentence of yours is really stupid. have you ever red philosophy? Anything at all? You think that dogs don't think? Well that is pretty much proved that they think, and there is no matter in what language or something they think (how does deaf think?), it is nature law that species think they are perfect, they rule. Take lions for example. And if a dog thinks that he has to obay to human bechause he can do genetics and stuff (that was just an example, you may replace genetics with something easyer), then he really is smart, bechause he realizes things better. But obaying to specie who got some physical abilty what you don't have, is not a nature law, I mean physical ability what doesn't affect you in nature way (food etc). You are physical proof that humans really are stupid, yes, smartness exists!
They "believe" science because it has "mounds of evidence." And if it does not have said "mounds of evidence" then it no longer is science. See cold fusion, creationism etc.
There is no 'belief' in Science. It's not like someone did a scientific study and came up with "the world is flat."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that last sentence of yours is really stupid. have you ever red philosophy? Anything at all? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have I ever "red" philosophy? Not much. Why does it matter? Dogs don't have a language... they don't have a concept of 'smart.'
How old are you? Why don't you think that dogs don't have a language? How do they communicate then? I, and I believe you, have seen dogs communicating. Take dogs sexuality for example. If you don't get the idea, then you must be really stupid. Have you ever seen dogs together? It doesn't matter what languiage they got, wether they bark or wether they contact with body language, it doesn't matter, they contact. I have a cat and she understands me perfectly. When I open my refrigerator, then she awakes up automatically and runs into kitchen, so, she thinks, she knows what refrigerator is. She greets me when I come home, she knows how to ask to get food. If animal knows something, then he thinks, otherwise he cannot know something specific. I can see that you have never had animal, maybe only some small cage animal or something... Animal is a living thing like you, and he feels the same way as you when he gets hit by a car or brakes his leg, and same thing is with stress and other such things. Science is actually proved that animals think and communicate, so where are you in? Your thinking is really primitive.
take a basic Psychology class... the dog/cat doesn't know what the refrigerator does, they know that action A will cause action/reward B... that's pretty much it.
of course animals think but putting them on the same level as humans is wrong imo
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your thinking is really primitive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WTH? My thinking is primitive because I haven't seen this scientific evidence to support Dogs having a language and being as intelligent as humans? Oookay.... Not to mention, you bashed science just a few posts ago... I'm so confused. Is English not your first language?
BTW, your personal insults really don't add anything to the conversation and just serve to make you look unintelligent...
No. just bechause other animals than human cannot do genetics or something whatever, doesn't mean they are stupid. They have abilities what we don't have. And you are talking about abilities bechause brain size and other such things are ability. Nature gave them such brain, you cannot do nothing about it. And that is not smartness. Smartness can only be inside species not between species. Smartness is comapred with two examples in same specimen. I wonder, what if you were born with some defect, like Down Syndrome for example, that would mean, that I may rise you to kill you and eat you bechause your abilities are more limited than mine - in your theory. If you are talking about proving theories, then prove that animals are really STUPID and they don't know what is what. We were like them, once, we evolved from them. Mybe in one day, a bigger lifeform than us comes in and speaks about things what we don't understand - how something can exist in non existment and anti-things or things what I cannot mention bechause we just cannot think about such things bechause our brains are limited in that point, or something. If you haven't proved that something do not exist, then there is possibility that it exists and you cannot argue in that point. There are many things wich are proved, but scientists refuse to believe it still, like in middle-ages.
<!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Nov 13 2004, 01:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 13 2004, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> take a basic Psychology class... the dog/cat doesn't know what the refrigerator does, they know that action A will cause action/reward B... that's pretty much it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nadagast, this is true to an extent but some animal behaviours are a bit more difficult than trying to simply base everything on a purely instinctive or reactionary point of view (a difference in opinion from what I had a while ago).
Kabuum
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No. just bechause other animals than human cannot do genetics or something whatever, doesn't mean they are stupid. They have abilities what we don't have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is worth noting that termites have been able to build structures many thousands of times their own height, with full air conditioning for the hive well before we could do something more than use rocks to beat the marrow out from bones. Theoretically, termites could of thought us as stupid because they could do more than we could.
<!--QuoteBegin-kabuum+Nov 12 2004, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabuum @ Nov 12 2004, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is the stupidest thing ever heard. You cannot say "smart". Smart can be said only in one specimen. Everybody are smart. Look at the dolphins for instead, they can communicate almost telepatically and maybe they know things what we don't. That makes them smart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it means they have psychic powers. That's not smart, that's something they have. That doesn't mean that when dolphins roam the land, blowing out the brains of humans <i>with the power of thought alone</i>, they're stupid. They're just <i>not smart</i>. I know that's not much consolation when the dolphins finally march against us, but hey.
We're not smart because we have vocal chords. We're smart because we developed language beyond grunts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wonder, what if when an alien lifeform comes to earth and their technic differs from ours and they have come huge way to earth, we don't have technic to travel in such distanses, so that makes them smarter than us, don't you think so? So, they have a right to raise us for food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a question of being smarter, but of being smart beyond a certain level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just bechause some lifeforms doesn't have an abilty, doesn't make them stupid. I am pretty shure that EVERYBODY think they are smart. I am pretty shure that animals, like a dog for example, think that they are smart and you don't know how do they see us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because something is not smart doesn't make it stupid. But you do have a point; people pick up after their dogs, after all.
<!--QuoteBegin-kabuum+Nov 12 2004, 02:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabuum @ Nov 12 2004, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why don't you think that dogs don't have a language? How do they communicate then? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Language and Communication are two completely different things
Code9Bored and running out of ammunition.Join Date: 2003-11-29Member: 23740Members
edited November 2004
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC HERE....
Honestly, I have a hunch that a great many (Note: "A great many" does not constitute all. So please, no righteous indignation or wadded panties.) who oppose hunting simply believe it to be barbaric. Becuase a piston to the skull and a metal shiv in the heart is "More humane" than a bullet through the vitals of a deer, or elk.
It's "Unneeded" is due to the apparent violence exhibited by Mr. Human that they most just don't get to see with supermarket meat (How many people do YOU know that have even so much as seen a movie of what goes on in a sluaghterhouse?) than any real concern over the survival of a species of animal. For some reason, humanity doesn't really seem to like acknowledging that it is a predator, and probably the most lethal one nature has ever created.
</interesting psychological theory>
For my part, I don't think it matters. Either way you go, it's all equally dead. I have hunted before, and if it becomes cheaper to go out, get a hunting license, and fire a 10 cent round of 7.62x39mm out of my AK at a deer, than spend 10-20 dollars at the supermarket, then I will do so again... ..... Oh wait.
SPORT Hunting on the other hand....This is what I have a problem with. At the very least, the meat needs to go to feed SOMEBODY, ANYBODY. Send it to a homeless shelter if nothing else.
<!--QuoteBegin-Code966+Nov 16 2004, 03:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Code966 @ Nov 16 2004, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> GETTING BACK ON TOPIC HERE....
Honestly, I have a hunch that a great many (Note: "A great many" does not constitute all. So please, no righteous indignation or wadded panties.) who oppose hunting simply believe it to be barbaric. Becuase a piston to the skull and a metal shiv in the heart is "More humane" than a bullet through the vitals of a deer, or elk.
It's "Unneeded" is due to the apparent violence exhibited by Mr. Human that they most just don't get to see with supermarket meat (How many people do YOU know that have even so much as seen a movie of what goes on in a sluaghterhouse?) than any real concern over the survival of a species of animal. For some reason, humanity doesn't really seem to like acknowledging that it is a predator, and probably the most lethal one nature has ever created.
</interesting psychological theory>
For my part, I don't think it matters. Either way you go, it's all equally dead. I have hunted before, and if it becomes cheaper to go out, get a hunting license, and fire a 10 cent round of 7.62x39mm out of my AK at a deer, than spend 10-20 dollars at the supermarket, then I will do so again... ..... Oh wait.
SPORT Hunting on the other hand....This is what I have a problem with. At the very least, the meat needs to go to feed SOMEBODY, ANYBODY. Send it to a homeless shelter if nothing else. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for that post. It brightened my day.
I don't know any sport hunters. All my friends are too poor to afford such a luxury. But the donation of the meat to feed the homeless and needy would make such a practice marginally acceptable in my mind. Pennsylvania has just such a program though we have always eaten what we killed.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores. As a matter of fact humans need an small intake of the water-insoluable vitamin B-12 which is found in meats not plants. (in fact if you go without any B-12 intake over the course of a couple years you will get memory problems and a dangerous degradation of neuro-muscular junction leading to tetanus and loss of motor contol)
Humans are planet Earth's top, most lethal predator. While one naked human may not be able to take on a tiger. Humans have evolved using technology and often work in communities. The Kharaa must be the most superior organism ever discovered to be able to hold their ground without any technology against humans. Think about humans being Earth's top predator next time you look at a group of people.
Follow the native american approach to hunting: it's all about respect for nature. If you respect nature you won't drive a species to extinction. If you respect nature you'll use all of the parts of the organism for a use. Hunting for sport alone is usually an evil. (there are exceptions, computer games for example) But you can enjoy the hunt and then show respect by using the creature fully and that is good. Just remember to be respect to nature.
There is nothing wrong with hunting or the meat industry in it's essence but often in our arrogance we show a lack of respect that can end in evils of torture, waste, and driving a species to extinction. And remember theis doesn't just go for the animal kingdom. Trees and many other plant have suffered from our disrespectful opportunistic hunger.
Show respect for what you kill. It really isn't hard. Stop being so f-ing lazy.
Comments
Why? I'd have thought that tearing an animal apart with your bare hands (or whatever) would be more painful for it than being shot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but it gives the animal a chance to fight back or to run away. If you manage to catch a rabbit with your bare hands and break its neck, thats an accomplishment because rabbits are fast and manuverable.
And of course it goes without saying that no matter how you kill it you'd better eat it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To suggest that people should hunt with their bare hands is to suggest that a cheetah only run at 30 mph or that a wolf only bite once.
You are suggesting that people hunt animals without the tools that evolution equipped us with. What is the difference between a human using a spear and a clownfish hiding inside an anemone? This is life and death. Fair doesn't enter into it. You can be damned sure that if lions had index fingers and figured out how to craft/fire weapons that they would be feasting on more water buffalo.
I don't hunt for a thrill or accomplishment. I hunt for food.
I dunno, after seeing the way pigs are forced to live in a very very small cages for their entire lives and then they are tranported to a slaughter houses, their snouts being pinned on a hook while they are still alive and then electrocuted...
some of them aren't dead after that, some survive... and then they get CUT in half.. SLOWLY! while they're still feeling every bit of it...
and pigs are smarter than dogs...
I dunno.. I still eat hamburgers but...
It reminds me of nazi concentration camps.
...
I really should be a veganist, I'm such a hypocrite. =(
why not just genetically engineer a 'meat-sac' without higher brainfunctions? =(
Quality control.
I know where it grew up. I know what it eats. I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why? I'd have thought that tearing an animal apart with your bare hands (or whatever) would be more painful for it than being shot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but it gives the animal a chance to fight back or to run away. If you manage to catch a rabbit with your bare hands and break its neck, thats an accomplishment because rabbits are fast and manuverable.
And of course it goes without saying that no matter how you kill it you'd better eat it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To suggest that people should hunt with their bare hands is to suggest that a cheetah only run at 30 mph or that a wolf only bite once.
You are suggesting that people hunt animals without the tools that evolution equipped us with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Because humans do not *need* to hunt for their food anymore. We raise and kill our own food which is made convieniently available at the nearest grocery store.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is the difference between a human using a spear and a clownfish hiding inside an anemone?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need to kill a wild animal to eat. You can get meat already killed, butchered, cleaned, and even seasoned or already cooked at any number of convienient locations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is life and death. Fair doesn't enter into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, its not. For the animal it is life or death, for you its just sport or because you want a slightly different tasting meat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can be damned sure that if lions had index fingers and figured out how to craft/fire weapons that they would be feasting on more water buffalo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course they would. But what if they were to discover agriculture and start raising livestock?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't hunt for a thrill or accomplishment. I hunt for food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Food is available to you at your nearest grocery store. You ahrdly need to run out into the forest and shoot a deer to eat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself?
How is me killing the animal any different than you paying someone else to kill it for you.
How is me killing the animal any different than you paying someone else to kill it for you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not really. However, I consider one a 'nessesary evil' if you will, making the other unnessesary.
How is me killing the animal any different than you paying someone else to kill it for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not really. However, I consider one a 'nessesary evil' if you will, making the other unnessesary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see nothing evil about it. If you feel that eating meat is immoral or evil then you must stop eating meat.
There is also the issue of self reliance. I am quite confident in my ability to survive in the wilderness with nothing but what I was born with and my knowledge of nature. I frequently go into the woods to camp or hike or just get away from the city. Do not try to distance yourself from nature. To do so is to forget yourself.
What you suggest is that I put my survival into the hands of others. At times, it is impossible to avoid (air travel, driving, etc) yet I try to keep that to a minimum. How many of you can say that you could survive on your own?
Now that my semi-spiritual rant is over. I find it extremely amusing that you feel I should defend my actions in any way. The animals I take are killed in the most humane and swiftest way possible. They are not kept in cages or force fed. How many of you can say that about your McDonald's hamburgers? (If you even know what is in them)
I realize I -need- to eat them, because that's the way nature works and I'm also part of that..
That way I come to terms to that is by (well mentally, not out loud, I don't want to creep out other people <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) apologizing to whatever I eat, like the aboriginals do.
Human beings evolved as omnivores; it is what allowed us to survive. Deny that aspect of your nature if you wish but do not expect me to do the same.
Just because a new technology has been developed does not make the old ways wrong. There is no real reason you have presented to me as to why I should adopt your lifestyle. I hunt for my food and you pick it out of a freezer. I do not tell you what clothing you should wear or that you eat your cereal incorrectly. Perhaps we should suggest that since homosexuals do not HAVE to have sex with their same gender that they shouldn't because it isn't absolutely necessary?
The arguements above contain many red herrings yet they do illustrate the comparisons that are being made. Just because there is A way doesnt make it the ONLY way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that is what I am saying.
I had to eat some beef while I was in college and to be honest I found it to be disgusting. It was fatty and soft and not at all what I was used to. I did not know where it was from or how it was raised.
The only meat I eat is the meat that my father or I have killed ourselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that is what I am saying.
I had to eat some beef while I was in college and to be honest I found it to be disgusting. It was fatty and soft and not at all what I was used to. I did not know where it was from or how it was raised.
The only meat I eat is the meat that my father or I have killed ourselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case I suppose I can't say that theres anything wrong with what your doing.
That would probably be more convenient, but if they're prepared to go hunting, then why<i> not</i> go to the woods and use a gun?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quality control. I know where it grew up. I know what it eats, I know what pesticides are in the area. I know how old it is. I know if it looks sick.
I pick the meat I want to eat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but are you honestly telling me that you the only meat you eat is that which you have killed yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that is what I am saying.
I had to eat some beef while I was in college and to be honest I found it to be disgusting. It was fatty and soft and not at all what I was used to. I did not know where it was from or how it was raised.
The only meat I eat is the meat that my father or I have killed ourselves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case I suppose I can't say that theres anything wrong with what your doing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for looking on this with an open mind. However I would also argue that there is nothing wrong with hunting for your food even if you purchased it from the store from time to time.
My point is that there is nothing wrong with hunting in general. I find sport hunting to be reprehensible yet it is not my place to say that someone cannot do such a thing but that they should not do such a thing. That is a personal choice they have to make for themselves.
I cannot be a vegitarian. It is not in my nature and I would feel as if I were denying myself. I respect their views and hope that they respect mine.
Vegans on the other hand, they creep me out a little <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> j/k to each their own. Just don't get too preachy.
edit: I find it mildly amusing that I am munching on some dried seaweed while posting this message.
Amen. What's wrong with a little diversity anyway? Eating pork, chicken or cow all the time gets boring. Deer has a much different taste. Where's the sin in treating my tastebuds to a little luxury now and then?
Humans are as near to perfection as is naturaly possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the stupidest thing ever heard.
You cannot say "smart". Smart can be said only in one specimen. Everybody are smart.
Look at the dolphins for instead, they can communicate almost telepatically and maybe they know things what we don't. That makes them smart. Whales can see sound waves as 3D and maybe there are some species who can see different dimentions or levels what we don't see. I suggest you to study some philosophy and make clear of what smartness is.
And it is not even clear if we need those things like creating things from different genuies. You should also read the book "Martian Chronicles" what is written by A. C. Clarke.
And it is even not clear that humans went to moon. Todays science is same as the religion was in middle-ages.
Humans are actually undeveloping, not developing, they don't know how to preserve and they make things complicated with all those rules what doesn't obay another rules. They don't even know what are they creating.
Stupidity.
I wonder, what if when an alien lifeform comes to earth and their technic differs from ours and they have come huge way to earth, we don't have technic to travel in such distanses, so that makes them smarter than us, don't you think so? So, they have a right to raise us for food.
People are being grown in small boxes, they have born in there and the last thing they see, is a conveiour line what is butchering them or something. They don't have mothers wo would teach them some language, they don't know what is in outside of the box, actually they are not thinking of what is outside of it, they have just been born in there and they think that that is the world - stupid, eh?
Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in aliens, do you? Actually you are right, bechause we are the higher lifeforms as you said, we just are and that is it, isn't it so? Whe are at the top of evolution.
That also makes us really stupid if we talk about your way. We just haven't seen life on other planets, we don't believe it, just like that box room thing.
Just bechause some lifeforms doesn't have an abilty, doesn't make them stupid.
I am pretty shure that EVERYBODY think they are smart. I am pretty shure that animals, like a dog for example, think that they are smart and you don't know how do they see us.
Humans are as near to perfection as is naturaly possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what? I agree that humans are 'better' as in they won the planet, but that doesn't mean we are perfect or that we are any different from animals. We evolved from them you know...
Err what? You wanna provide some evidence for that? /me goes and gets his "Conspiracy Theories" book.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am pretty shure that EVERYBODY think they are smart. I am pretty shure that animals, like a dog for example, think that they are smart and you don't know how do they see us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH? I think it's fair to say that humans are more 'smart' than other species. Even your telepathic dolphins (lol?)
How would a Dog think of himself as 'smart'? How would he even have a concept of what 'smart' is? He wouldn't.
Okey, the moon thing was a bit rough and I ams hure that human has been on the moon, but not the way as we know it.
In middle ages or something, people believed that Earth was flat, somebody actually proved that earth was round, but people still didn't believe it. The same thing is with science today. Todays science is like religion, you are stuck on it and that is the only thing. Most people just believe science, underline the word "believe" plase.
People also believe that Columbus was the first european man who discovered America, well, there is physical evidence that he was not and that can be seen in England near Glasgonbury. True or not, that is your thing to BELIEVE.
And that last sentence of yours is really stupid. have you ever red philosophy? Anything at all?
You think that dogs don't think? Well that is pretty much proved that they think, and there is no matter in what language or something they think (how does deaf think?), it is nature law that species think they are perfect, they rule. Take lions for example. And if a dog thinks that he has to obay to human bechause he can do genetics and stuff (that was just an example, you may replace genetics with something easyer), then he really is smart, bechause he realizes things better. But obaying to specie who got some physical abilty what you don't have, is not a nature law, I mean physical ability what doesn't affect you in nature way (food etc).
You are physical proof that humans really are stupid, yes, smartness exists!
There is no 'belief' in Science. It's not like someone did a scientific study and came up with "the world is flat."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that last sentence of yours is really stupid. have you ever red philosophy? Anything at all? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have I ever "red" philosophy? Not much. Why does it matter? Dogs don't have a language... they don't have a concept of 'smart.'
Have you ever seen dogs together? It doesn't matter what languiage they got, wether they bark or wether they contact with body language, it doesn't matter, they contact.
I have a cat and she understands me perfectly. When I open my refrigerator, then she awakes up automatically and runs into kitchen, so, she thinks, she knows what refrigerator is. She greets me when I come home, she knows how to ask to get food. If animal knows something, then he thinks, otherwise he cannot know something specific.
I can see that you have never had animal, maybe only some small cage animal or something... Animal is a living thing like you, and he feels the same way as you when he gets hit by a car or brakes his leg, and same thing is with stress and other such things.
Science is actually proved that animals think and communicate, so where are you in?
Your thinking is really primitive.
of course animals think but putting them on the same level as humans is wrong imo
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your thinking is really primitive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH? My thinking is primitive because I haven't seen this scientific evidence to support Dogs having a language and being as intelligent as humans? Oookay....
Not to mention, you bashed science just a few posts ago... I'm so confused. Is English not your first language?
BTW, your personal insults really don't add anything to the conversation and just serve to make you look unintelligent...
And you are talking about abilities bechause brain size and other such things are ability. Nature gave them such brain, you cannot do nothing about it. And that is not smartness. Smartness can only be inside species not between species. Smartness is comapred with two examples in same specimen.
I wonder, what if you were born with some defect, like Down Syndrome for example, that would mean, that I may rise you to kill you and eat you bechause your abilities are more limited than mine - in your theory.
If you are talking about proving theories, then prove that animals are really STUPID and they don't know what is what.
We were like them, once, we evolved from them. Mybe in one day, a bigger lifeform than us comes in and speaks about things what we don't understand - how something can exist in non existment and anti-things or things what I cannot mention bechause we just cannot think about such things bechause our brains are limited in that point, or something.
If you haven't proved that something do not exist, then there is possibility that it exists and you cannot argue in that point.
There are many things wich are proved, but scientists refuse to believe it still, like in middle-ages.
Nadagast, this is true to an extent but some animal behaviours are a bit more difficult than trying to simply base everything on a purely instinctive or reactionary point of view (a difference in opinion from what I had a while ago).
Kabuum
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No. just bechause other animals than human cannot do genetics or something whatever, doesn't mean they are stupid. They have abilities what we don't have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is worth noting that termites have been able to build structures many thousands of times their own height, with full air conditioning for the hive well before we could do something more than use rocks to beat the marrow out from bones. Theoretically, termites could of thought us as stupid because they could do more than we could.
You cannot say "smart". Smart can be said only in one specimen. Everybody are smart.
Look at the dolphins for instead, they can communicate almost telepatically and maybe they know things what we don't. That makes them smart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it means they have psychic powers. That's not smart, that's something they have. That doesn't mean that when dolphins roam the land, blowing out the brains of humans <i>with the power of thought alone</i>, they're stupid. They're just <i>not smart</i>. I know that's not much consolation when the dolphins finally march against us, but hey.
We're not smart because we have vocal chords. We're smart because we developed language beyond grunts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wonder, what if when an alien lifeform comes to earth and their technic differs from ours and they have come huge way to earth, we don't have technic to travel in such distanses, so that makes them smarter than us, don't you think so? So, they have a right to raise us for food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a question of being smarter, but of being smart beyond a certain level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just bechause some lifeforms doesn't have an abilty, doesn't make them stupid.
I am pretty shure that EVERYBODY think they are smart. I am pretty shure that animals, like a dog for example, think that they are smart and you don't know how do they see us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because something is not smart doesn't make it stupid. But you do have a point; people pick up after their dogs, after all.
Language and Communication are two completely different things
Honestly, I have a hunch that a great many (Note: "A great many" does not constitute all. So please, no righteous indignation or wadded panties.) who oppose hunting simply believe it to be barbaric. Becuase a piston to the skull and a metal shiv in the heart is "More humane" than a bullet through the vitals of a deer, or elk.
It's "Unneeded" is due to the apparent violence exhibited by Mr. Human that they most just don't get to see with supermarket meat (How many people do YOU know that have even so much as seen a movie of what goes on in a sluaghterhouse?) than any real concern over the survival of a species of animal. For some reason, humanity doesn't really seem to like acknowledging that it is a predator, and probably the most lethal one nature has ever created.
</interesting psychological theory>
For my part, I don't think it matters. Either way you go, it's all equally dead. I have hunted before, and if it becomes cheaper to go out, get a hunting license, and fire a 10 cent round of 7.62x39mm out of my AK at a deer, than spend 10-20 dollars at the supermarket, then I will do so again... ..... Oh wait.
SPORT Hunting on the other hand....This is what I have a problem with. At the very least, the meat needs to go to feed SOMEBODY, ANYBODY. Send it to a homeless shelter if nothing else.
Honestly, I have a hunch that a great many (Note: "A great many" does not constitute all. So please, no righteous indignation or wadded panties.) who oppose hunting simply believe it to be barbaric. Becuase a piston to the skull and a metal shiv in the heart is "More humane" than a bullet through the vitals of a deer, or elk.
It's "Unneeded" is due to the apparent violence exhibited by Mr. Human that they most just don't get to see with supermarket meat (How many people do YOU know that have even so much as seen a movie of what goes on in a sluaghterhouse?) than any real concern over the survival of a species of animal. For some reason, humanity doesn't really seem to like acknowledging that it is a predator, and probably the most lethal one nature has ever created.
</interesting psychological theory>
For my part, I don't think it matters. Either way you go, it's all equally dead. I have hunted before, and if it becomes cheaper to go out, get a hunting license, and fire a 10 cent round of 7.62x39mm out of my AK at a deer, than spend 10-20 dollars at the supermarket, then I will do so again... ..... Oh wait.
SPORT Hunting on the other hand....This is what I have a problem with. At the very least, the meat needs to go to feed SOMEBODY, ANYBODY. Send it to a homeless shelter if nothing else. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for that post. It brightened my day.
I don't know any sport hunters. All my friends are too poor to afford such a luxury. But the donation of the meat to feed the homeless and needy would make such a practice marginally acceptable in my mind. Pennsylvania has just such a program though we have always eaten what we killed.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores. As a matter of fact humans need an small intake of the water-insoluable vitamin B-12 which is found in meats not plants. (in fact if you go without any B-12 intake over the course of a couple years you will get memory problems and a dangerous degradation of neuro-muscular junction leading to tetanus and loss of motor contol)
Humans are planet Earth's top, most lethal predator. While one naked human may not be able to take on a tiger. Humans have evolved using technology and often work in communities. The Kharaa must be the most superior organism ever discovered to be able to hold their ground without any technology against humans. Think about humans being Earth's top predator next time you look at a group of people.
Follow the native american approach to hunting: it's all about respect for nature. If you respect nature you won't drive a species to extinction. If you respect nature you'll use all of the parts of the organism for a use. Hunting for sport alone is usually an evil. (there are exceptions, computer games for example) But you can enjoy the hunt and then show respect by using the creature fully and that is good. Just remember to be respect to nature.
There is nothing wrong with hunting or the meat industry in it's essence but often in our arrogance we show a lack of respect that can end in evils of torture, waste, and driving a species to extinction. And remember theis doesn't just go for the animal kingdom. Trees and many other plant have suffered from our disrespectful opportunistic hunger.
Show respect for what you kill. It really isn't hard. Stop being so f-ing lazy.