Rfk - Good Or Bad?
Amped1
Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13287Members
Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13287Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it harming NS?</div> I recently probed my own mind by trying to figure out what I least liked about the current build of NS. I kept trying to think of things that damaged my fun factor more, but in the end I decided on RFK. It turns relaxed pubbie play into something that I feel is too competitive. It used to be a good player would be able to kill off quite a few members of the opposing team, buying time.
Time is extremely important. More of it allows you to say, do more damage to a base or cover more distance over the map. Resource income (from nodes) is based on time. But now, with RFK, a good player gets the time bonus in addition to the ability to upgrade, allowing them to kill even better, causing an exponential growth in their output. Player kills with LMG, player gets Shotgun and kills twice as much. The average pubbie was there just for fun, not to win. And if they were there to win, they could have an impact on the game by playing their best. Now however, you either want to win or you don't play.
My suggestion is to remove RFK. Combat will fufil players' wants of earning for killing. Clans could play competitively without it before, but if they really do want it then mp_tournamentmode (or whatever it is) can control whether RFK is on or off.
Yes I realize winning can be fun, but so can just playing. For example, me and my buds recently grabbed some Airsofts. At first I wanted Paint BBs (500 for 7.99) instead of Plastic BBs (2000 for 5.99) so that when the round was over we could see who did the most damage. But then I realized, we would still have just as much fun without caring about winning, so I switched the order to Plastic BBs (we get x4 as many BBs for less!)
Synopsis:
>RFK causes exponential growth in a players output. They kill a few players with an LMG, earn a Shotgun, and kill twice as many players than with the LMG.
>Generally, most pubbies want to play for fun; RFK constricts this.
>Combat does what RFK does, so the concept won't be completely tossed out for players who like it.
>If people really want to keep it, it could be connected to some svar.
Time is extremely important. More of it allows you to say, do more damage to a base or cover more distance over the map. Resource income (from nodes) is based on time. But now, with RFK, a good player gets the time bonus in addition to the ability to upgrade, allowing them to kill even better, causing an exponential growth in their output. Player kills with LMG, player gets Shotgun and kills twice as much. The average pubbie was there just for fun, not to win. And if they were there to win, they could have an impact on the game by playing their best. Now however, you either want to win or you don't play.
My suggestion is to remove RFK. Combat will fufil players' wants of earning for killing. Clans could play competitively without it before, but if they really do want it then mp_tournamentmode (or whatever it is) can control whether RFK is on or off.
Yes I realize winning can be fun, but so can just playing. For example, me and my buds recently grabbed some Airsofts. At first I wanted Paint BBs (500 for 7.99) instead of Plastic BBs (2000 for 5.99) so that when the round was over we could see who did the most damage. But then I realized, we would still have just as much fun without caring about winning, so I switched the order to Plastic BBs (we get x4 as many BBs for less!)
Synopsis:
>RFK causes exponential growth in a players output. They kill a few players with an LMG, earn a Shotgun, and kill twice as many players than with the LMG.
>Generally, most pubbies want to play for fun; RFK constricts this.
>Combat does what RFK does, so the concept won't be completely tossed out for players who like it.
>If people really want to keep it, it could be connected to some svar.
Comments
RFK is somehow disturbing. But what do you do, when someone destroys your last rt and you dont have the res to build another one? Nothing i suppose, but since i rarely encounter situations with 0 rt i dont care that much.
I think the problem with rfk is the fact, that it encourages spawncamping and that many ppl do suicide rushes on groups of rines hoping to get 50 res fast so they can fade, though they usually die to the next rine they meet. Removing rfk simply forces a team to concentrate on ressources.
Does anyone of you know an rts who has rfk <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I am shure 90% of you cant think of one. So why do most rts have not such a think like rfk? Cause it allows some nasty allamo action. Move up that hill in starcraft deply your siege tanks and goliaths and wait for the enemy to come. with rfk you would not have to worry about res of any kind, since a zerg player would feed you quite well with it.
To make it short: You are not alone George.
Skulks are a curse for the kharaa. They aren't allowed to die, and they have virtually no chance of having a >1 k:d against competant marines. Engagement with skulks hurts the team, by giving the other team more rfk than you can hope to get. You're better off if the skulks stay out of the way, and go kill rts, while a fade or two does all the work. That's not the kind of teamwork I was hoping for.
I miss the days when we had grand battles, with many marines vs many skulks, and losing 6 skulks to kill 2 marines would be fine. Just spawn back and keep going. Same goes for the marines: while punishing rambo behaviour could be useful, it also sucks that last-ditch base saving efforts (like when an onos is next to the phase gate) get punished so heavily.
Also, there is virtually no incentive not to drop big guns. They pay for themselves directly, via skulk kills + turning fades/onos into skulks, after a very short time. There isn't much that can beat the cost efficiency of a shotgun (permanant upgrades). Compounded with the way you can pick up other marines' guns after their death, this has dramatically changed the field of combat (not the mode, fighting).
If we don't get rid of rfk completely, we at least need to fix it. Random values for rfk suck. A skulk should definately not be worth as much (or sometimes more) than an onos kill.
I agree with Forlorn. And it does help the end game, for marines anyway. Aliens just need a good 3-hive boost to really take it home
Reward for skilled players was (and should be) bought time. It definately allows for faster games, but comebacks? If my team is getting its butt kicked, that just allows the enemy team to get even better weapons/life forms, making the butt kicking all the more brutal. I would also like to point out that you are a clanner, and of course you support RFK; it enhances competitive play. Which is exactly why I suggested that RFK be linked to mp_tournamentmode.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 6 2004, 04:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 6 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we don't get rid of rfk completely, we at least need to fix it. Random values for rfk suck. A skulk should definately not be worth as much (or sometimes more) than an onos kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a possibility.
Skulk - 1
Gorge/Marine/Lerk - 2
Fade/JP/HA - 3
Onos - 4
This would also allow for the comebacks that Forlorn speaks of.
RFK is actually quite a neat way of getting round this, by rewarding the side that killed something rather than penalising the side who died. To compare to starcraft again, if you keep throwing suicide units at a superior enemy force then you'll find yourself at a disadvantage in resources. Similarly if your marines keep going rambo or the skulks throw themselves blindly at marines in open groung you'll pay the price in resource terms. Of course, the analogy isn't perfect, in starcraft you might just find yourself with a smaller army...but ns has a fixed army size(the players per team) so superiority of force just manifests itself in the side with better weapons/lifeforms/upgrades. That, of course, is usually the result of having more resources.
So basically, one take on RFK is that it's a way to attach a res cost to a basic marine/skulk without all the problems of setting up tollgates on the hives and infantry portals. As for the thing about onos and fades, because they do have a gestation cost, they don't need to give up rfk. When they die, it's the expended res on the lifeform that makes up the cost, as it's pretty large compared to the 1-3 rfk that they're worth. You might argue that gestation costs should be decreased by a propotion, and the value made up in rfk when the lifeform dies. But then you'd get much earlier and more frequent fades/onos coming out, and that would make a mess of the current balance.
In theory this is how it should work but when skulks suck so much late game because of how upgrades for aliens and marines work it is PRO marine.
Everythign else should give rfk.
Gorges - 1
Lerk - 2
Fade - 3
Onos - 5
Marine - 2
HA/JP - 4
Not like it makes it any easier for aliens to place RTs with paying 10 res first for gorge powers, then 15 for the first rt = 25 res for rt beginning of game, whereas it's 15 all the time for marines.
/me looks at warcraft 3 and its exp frozen throne
Quite simple literally, you're giving them gold when your crappiest combat life form, (gorge is just below it due to spit) dies.
It would be much better to know that I can swarm a siege area with a group of skulks and not repay them for the damage I caused. Mostly meds, sometimes mines.
I support RFK, I don't support RFK from a skulk though as they aren't worthy of a reward as there so pathetically dispatched by a mildly, non-ambushed, marine. (Or even a good marine ambushed)
Then again this goes to the old arguement of skulks not being cannon fodder and them being ambushers. . . . although having 3/6 of your team entirely incapable of helping in a siege tends to make the role of the skulk questionable.
I'm not saying skulks are walking res, but, most of the time they are and it frustrates me to know that if I die I help the marines instead of harming them in what I did in-death unless I destroyed a structure.
/me looks at warcraft 3 and its exp frozen throne <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm to a certain extend you are right, but you only gain rfk for killing critters. Once all critters are dead there wont be any rfk for you anymore.
alien rfk is great as it is. it really rewards the aliens for getting those difficult kills, and it really penalizes marines for being dumb
For example, skulks/marines with no HA/JP/special gun would always give 0 rfk. For everything else, the rfk should be half the unit cost. So, killing a JP/HMG would give the alien 15 res, and killing a Fade should give 25 res to the marines for example. This translates to no rfk for the marines for most of the game since good Fades and Oni rarely die. Aliens get the better end of the deal because it's a lot easier for 5 shotgunners to go down than for a Fade to go down for example.
This rewards skill like beore, but the lesser units can now go swarm the enemy without worrying about giving res to the enemy.
Plus, as has been mentioned, skulks are badly hurt by RFK, and big weapons pay for themselves very quickly. This should not be the case; higher end weaponry is already great without generating resources, and skulks should not fear death.
In theory this is how it should work but when skulks suck so much late game because of how upgrades for aliens and marines work it is PRO marine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true at all, as a marine who gets a kill = 2 res into a global pool
Alien gets a kill = 2 res into a SINGLE res pool
Therefore aliens benifit much more from RFK
In theory this is how it should work but when skulks suck so much late game because of how upgrades for aliens and marines work it is PRO marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true at all, as a marine who gets a kill = 2 res into a global pool
Alien gets a kill = 2 res into a SINGLE res pool
Therefore aliens benifit much more from RFK <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your statement is the exact opposite as the global pool is much more usefull than 2 res to a single skulk.
Everyone knows that the res system for the marines is much better than the res system for the aliens.
True it doesnt reward the single player but in the grand sceme of things the global pool is much greater.
Even if I am totally wrong on my statement a marine late game is alot, alot more harder to kill than a skulk so the RFK would favor the marines.
In theory this is how it should work but when skulks suck so much late game because of how upgrades for aliens and marines work it is PRO marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true at all, as a marine who gets a kill = 2 res into a global pool
Alien gets a kill = 2 res into a SINGLE res pool
Therefore aliens benifit much more from RFK <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your statement is the exact opposite as the global pool is much more usefull than 2 res to a single skulk.
Everyone knows that the res system for the marines is much better than the res system for the aliens.
True it doesnt reward the single player but in the grand sceme of things the global pool is much greater.
Even if I am totally wrong on my statement a marine late game is alot, alot more harder to kill than a skulk so the RFK would favor the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... because 2 res for marines in a global pool is nothing. It's a medpack. 2 res in a single alien pool is 2 more res to something like a fade.
A kill speeds up the alien economy much more than it does the marine economy. Trust me, if you kill 3 marines in the begaining you fade like 1 minute earlier.
As a fade we lost all our RT's then I got enough kills to fade again. I died and refaded. I killed enough marines the second time I faded to go ONOS.
The rest of my team was barely getting any kills and they simply had enough to gorge and put up an RT or defense chamber.
RFK is MUCH more powerful for aliens than marines.
And while 10 res is 10 res closer to fade, well, 10 marine res is 10 res closer to a suit of heavy armor and a hmg. Nevermind that the latter comes sooner and costs 5 res less.
You say"its only a medpack" but its not, its 1/5 of a shotgun rather than 1/25 of a fade, and the fade still has to get the other kills to go fade, but the marines can pool all their RFK and RT income together to get HA/Shotties etc. Which will then pwn the poor fade as soon as he appears.
Also it means you have a fade all by himself, in 1/04 one of the most fun aspects was when the second hive went up all the aliens would fade at the same time, and then the marines would see 1 fade and go "Eeeek! FADESW RAE AIUSHBFIABFIO!!" Now its just "fade shotgun com" and then the marines gun it down.
Electricity, lack of any alien ranged weapons, devour and RFK are the things which make NS frustrating to play.
Marines should at LEAST be able to look at their +maps while being devoured, rather than looking at ******.
If you had a rambo spawncamping the hive, it would just be stupid. If it just gives you res for Gorge, Lerk, Fade and Onos, i thinks its a pretty damn good idea.
And while 10 res is 10 res closer to fade, well, 10 marine res is 10 res closer to a suit of heavy armor and a hmg. Nevermind that the latter comes sooner and costs 5 res less. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If rfk was removed, aliens would be so super screwed that marines would win literally every match assuming the skill levels aren't super lobsided.
Personal res-pool > global res pool.
Think about it this way: IT takes a hell of a shorter amount of time for the comm to gain 50 res than for an alien to gain 50 res without rfk because the aliens have to split it like 6 ways while to comm gets it all. Without rfk, Fades probably won't show up until the 7 minute mark depending on how many RTs there are. RFK always, always give the aliens the better end of the deal. Just imagine how much worse it'd be if eveyr time an alien killed a marine, the 2 res he gets is put into the community res pool and then redistributed evenly between the alien team like how an RT gives out res.
Anyways, I totally support removal of rfk assuming the res system is reworked so aliens so don't need them. We've managed in the past without rfk, so I think we can manage it again.
I want to see it removed for both sides. If ther are no RTs, then there should be a small trickle of res.