Alien Upgrade Order
Aetius
Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14408Members
Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14408Members
<div class="IPBDescription">DC then MC then SC ... why?</div> I've been playing since v1, and (if I remember correctly - I <i>have</i> been known to err ... ), one of the points of v3 was to set it up so that all three alien upgrades were equally useful, and so they could be built in whatever order.
On public servers, I'm seeing the same old order -- Defense, then Movement, then Sensory -- is this because we're stuck in a collective rut? Because we haven't bothered trying to make it work other ways?
Or does it still just work best in that order?
On public servers, I'm seeing the same old order -- Defense, then Movement, then Sensory -- is this because we're stuck in a collective rut? Because we haven't bothered trying to make it work other ways?
Or does it still just work best in that order?
Comments
While silenced skulks are nice, in the early game res is tight and spending 2 res on a skulk upgrade can be a waste. Celerity skulks are also nice, but cara is almost as good for them. Adrenaline isn't that useful until aliens start getting more abilities to use all that energy on.
At second hive lerks get umbra (the big one) and gorgies get bile. To sustain these abilities, adrenal is needed. Plus, fades with celerity can better take advantage of regeneration by doing hit-and-fade (bad pun, I know) attacks. Since celerity complements regeneration and adrenaline complements 2-hive abilities so well, it's at Hive 2.
The chamber effects themselves suggest the DMS order, too. MC isn't that useful at one-hive, since there's only one spot to teleport to. DC, on the other hand, is most useful early on: 10 hp/tick counts for more then, since aliens have less life and marines don't have the massive-damage weaponry yet. SC could be good at one-hive, but experience has shown a cloak rush will usually be defeated, and will usually then leave aliens with one hive and no regen for their fades.
At the get go, marines have a slight advantage over skulks. Skulks have to rely on ambushes and parasiting in order to:
1. Protect their own nozzles
2. Destroy their nozzles
This marine advantage gets worse when armor 1 and weapon 1 are finished, both of which are crucial upgrades. The skulks are now fighting a losing battle. Now they have a choice of chambers.
<b>Sensory</b> is out of the question. It is far too easy to counter, and when the 2nd hive is up, deciding between MC and DC is not viable, you need them both at that stage. Particularly movements, as you'll need to reinforce the hive that wil be inevitably seiged.
<b>Movement</b> is potentially a viable option. Celerity/silence are good upgrades for skulks, probably slightly better than carapace (which only allows 3 extra bullets).However this slight benefit is no match for the HUGE benefit that fades get from Defense, compared to what they get over Movement.
<b>Defense</b> is chosen solely because fades need them. They must be able to cruise around the map using hit-and-run on marine squads. If they have to keep going back to the hive to heal the marines will simply reinforce.
Movement must be the second choice because skulks <b>need</b> to reinforce a seiged hive immediately.
MDS probably next viable move.
Silence early game is great for skulks and the hive better be going up before the first fade. Also good for countering a rush on the unbuilt hive. So the first fade would have to be carefull for about 2-3 mins to get the 2nd hive up and Ds built. And by then the game is all uphill.
A fade that lasts longer can theoretically do more damage, while a fade that does not last as long does less... 50 res saved is 50 res earned I say.
With movements you are pretty much guarenteed a second hive (along with those DCs) as long as you have better-than-idiotic players.
<b>SC cannot be first because</b> marines will just rush for electricity and lock down two hives. Scan + obs easily eliminate any benefit SC might offer and larger life-forms cannot survive at hive 1. Marines just sit and wait for res while turrets pick off stray skulks. Sure, onos/fade can lumber to the hive room, but with at least 2 marines guarding it he will not stand a chance even with backup.
<b>MC cannot be first because</b> of the same reason and at hive 1 MCs lack one of their biggest benefits; linking hives with a teleport. Although better than SC, it still does not offer ANY solution against electricity.
Thus DC has to be first as it is the only chamber that allows all lifeforms survive a bit longer (cara onos is actually quite balanced, if you have healing nearby) and is the only way to counter electricity without second hive.
Thus DC has to be first as it is the only chamber that allows all lifeforms survive a bit longer (cara onos is actually quite balanced, if you have healing nearby) and is the only way to counter electricity without second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its a little iffy here when you are talking about compeditive play or friendly fire play, since hivebiting can bring your whole force to a spawning hive.
At hive one the MC upgrades are way better then the DC upgrades, but you sacrifice your ability to scramble fade defend if the rines attempt a 2 hive lockdown (which instantly should become first priority if scilenced skulks start attacking you in the early game)
IMO SDM is a bit too risky, but to each his own I guess...
(this is all from a pubber's POV so take it with a grain of salt ;p)
Still, it really is the crapness of the other team. If the comm does not have armour 1 by the time you have 2 SCs there's problems. :\
--
/me coughs politely
"This forum will host files and discussions about compatibility and balance changes. This forum exists both to address server compatibility issues and to give competitive players equal access to imminent changes, and to host discussions on said changes."
/end cough.
I try to use MDS on pubs just to open the minds of Railway players; one track minds. DC, Fades, Carapace, solo, win. Yawn.
MC + Elec... so? Fade? Hello? Even with 1 hive a fade can take an elec rt no problem. 2 planned escape routes should mean you survive marine encounters. Else, take 2 trips to the rt to finish it.
Or, hell, teamwork? 2 Fades? Or, shock, gorge healing.
There are much bigger in-depth threads on DMS/MDS in the appropriate Kharaa forums. (Fancy that eh?)
I keep trying to push the idea that MDS is another really good combo of chambers. Celerity/Silenced skulks are deadly. By the time fades come around, you'll either be building your 2nd hive, or starting to clear it out.
I like DMS, but it does get boring after awhile, I also agree with everyone that said its mainly for the heavier classes. I almost never upgrade as a skulk (when we get Ds first) unless the marines are moving to our hive and I need to defend it.
SDM or SMD is ok. Rushing focus makes for a quick game if the marine's can't aim too well. SCs are also only really useful when the gorge's spam them around the map, which isn't really doable in the first minutes of a game becauses you don't have very many RTs.
clocking skulks can be a pain in the end, and they can easily take a entire squad of marines out...
And fighting WITH clocking, it just fking owns :D
so mutch fun
now cloking and foucus can't compare to defence for those who decided to go res **** and go fade, but as skulk, it just owns
DMS
or
SMD
Defense allows you to rush fades and kick butt with them.
Sensory allows you to have super skulks at the begainning of the game, esp. with focus. Place sensory chambers at chokepoints and there you have it.
Movement is always second for a few reasons:
- Adrenaline intensive attacks do not come untill the second hive.
- You don't have the ability to warp to other hives untill the second hive is up.
- In theory you could use early game silence on your skulks, but motion tracking kills silence very well.
Sensory chambers on the other hand COUNTER motion tracking, so the only option is scan which is good but doesn't negate focus, which just plain old rapes marines.
DMS
or
SMD
Defense allows you to rush fades and kick butt with them.
Sensory allows you to have super skulks at the begainning of the game, esp. with focus. Place sensory chambers at chokepoints and there you have it.
Movement is always second for a few reasons:
- Adrenaline intensive attacks do not come untill the second hive.
- You don't have the ability to warp to other hives untill the second hive is up.
- In theory you could use early game silence on your skulks, but motion tracking kills silence very well.
Sensory chambers on the other hand COUNTER motion tracking, so the only option is scan which is good but doesn't negate focus, which just plain old rapes marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about MDS in a pcw or scrim?
DMS
or
SMD
Defense allows you to rush fades and kick butt with them.
Sensory allows you to have super skulks at the begainning of the game, esp. with focus. Place sensory chambers at chokepoints and there you have it.
Movement is always second for a few reasons:
- Adrenaline intensive attacks do not come untill the second hive.
- You don't have the ability to warp to other hives untill the second hive is up.
- In theory you could use early game silence on your skulks, but motion tracking kills silence very well.
Sensory chambers on the other hand COUNTER motion tracking, so the only option is scan which is good but doesn't negate focus, which just plain old rapes marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about MDS in a pcw or scrim? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generally it sucks
I mean, you got silence (motion tracking counters it 100%) and fast lerks (good aim + shotgun = dead lerk)
So where are the advantages again?
Once you get two hives, you can establish a transportation method around the map, and THEN it's REALLY useful, like the most useful chamber, but untill you can start warping with it and using energy consuming attacks... movement chambers stink.
Now add to that unlimited energy due to a nearby MC. We get a rocket with lagging hitbox, who can sporespam all day long.
Add to that a few celerity/silence skulks and we have a very confused marine team.
A celerity lerk is also by far the best scout you can have. Another thing, you said adrenaline intensive abilities don't come until hive two? Have you ever been in a hive room with a lerk sitting on top spamming mc-powered spores?
MC's first, one in the hive, one in some vent for escapes, one in the building hive, makes for near-normal hive defense, and I think we can agree that whether or not the second hive lives makes you win or lose, under most circumstances, no?
As for fades, the trade is being more able to do damage due to celerity, for being forced to heal up somewhere. Again, the road to the hive/gorges is shortened by celerity.
Skulks also have more benefit from mc's, whether it's for node chewing (adren), better ambushes (silence), or if they happen to get MT, you can always go for celerity which is still quite a boost.
But now Buggeh.. my dear clanmate - you will be shot on order of high treason.
R.I.P. Guy Fawkes
Burn him, burn him!
do you still love me?
i don't.
You have so many counters against it, electricity, MT, and GOOD AIM
Hint:
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>GOOD AIM BEATS FAST ALIENS</span>
Just because
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Celerity doesnt only make the lerk go quicker, it makes it almost unhittable. We all know of the HL netcode and lagging hitboxes, right? Now apply that knowledge on a rocket.
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you can't aim, doesn't mean others can't. I've solo'ed celerity lerks before with my LMG. It depends on the size of the room and they can't stop a full force of marines, there is no way. If there is a high ceiling killing the lerk will be a ****, but otherwise it's not gonna be too much of a threat.
You beat me, damnit.
Sorry dude, doesnt look right.
[Edit]I have soloed celerity lerks with lmg. I have also soloed two fades at the same time with a lvl 1 sg and no medpacks, does that mean fades dont work?
Skulks also have more benefit from mc's, whether it's for node chewing (adren), better ambushes (silence), or if they happen to get MT, you can always go for celerity which is still quite a boost. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I expect that skulks would be better off saving for rts/chambers/hive/lerk/fade than getting movement upgrades.
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[Edit]I have soloed celerity lerks with lmg. I have also soloed two fades at the same time with a lvl 1 sg and no medpacks, does that mean fades dont work?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Loll.