Walljumping would be an interesting alternative....that, or at least make it so a skulk can actually navigate along walls most of the time without getting stuck. People only ever make use of the ceiling and walls to get into vents/ambush spots. Can't make use of it as an evasive tactic unless you're in specific areas where the walls are smooth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> alias +j "+jump;+moveup" alias -j "-jump;-moveup" bind space +j
Use the walls <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I like halflife for the crispness of the controls too. Everything else seems sloppy and loose. When you move your mouse too fast in source it looks like your gun is slipping off the side of the screen. Plus there's no room for what I like calling stunt movement.
NS has such a huge range of stunt moves. Same with most HL mods frankly. It's the engine. Turning and strafing, learning how to precisely control yourself in the air. It's like there's another level of skill buried merely in how you move and how you navigate the environment.
Frankly I like it. It adds more realism to the game. Imagine you had nothing to do with your life except train your body to be a fighting tool. You can jump from the floor to a handrail in a single leap, and land on the rail perfectly balanced, or leap off the rail like a stairstep, you can flawlessly leap across deep pits onto ladders, and flawlessly springboard off of them. With some good timing, you can run full speed at a barely human-sized vent, jump at it, pull your body closer together in midair, and land inside the vent and immediately start crouchwalking, and you can do it all in full body armor and combat boots with a compact rifle. About the only thing you can't do is climb sheer rock walls and possibly jump at a wall and jump off of it at a higher altitude. With sufficient training and enough practice and finesse and body self-knowledge, these actions SHOULD be humanly possible. The human body is descended from animals that spent most of their days swinging from branches. If it's not physically impossible, like squeezing under the crack of a door like a roach, then it shouldn't be past the human ability.
Plus, TSA marines get nanites! They're virtually cyborgs. That's why the average TSA marine can jump and run like a gazelle.
I'm a little confused why marines can't run at the walls, jump up at them and backflip off over the back of the skulk chasing them. I'm convinced that all the TSA marines could do this without the weight of their armor. They recruit breakdancers and circe du soleil members, I think. Why WOULDN'T you want the finest human specimens to be the ones to fight the xenoform menace? The TSA wants a Riddick with a human heart.
Not sure where I was going with this other than I like the HL engine, and all its flaws.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Oct 25 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Oct 25 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm a little confused why marines can't run at the walls, jump up at them and backflip off over the back of the skulk chasing them. I'm convinced that all the TSA marines could do this without the weight of their armor. They recruit breakdancers and circe du soleil members, I think. Why WOULDN'T you want the finest human specimens to be the ones to fight the xenoform menace? The TSA wants a Riddick with a human heart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What the TSA wants (or any military power for that matter) is rarely what they get.
Generally speaking, break dancers and such would have a much more lucrative life as an entertainer of some sort. Why on earth would they want to trade a possibly insoluble fortune and fame for the grungy life of a soldier with little pay and even less assurance of life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Oct 25 2004, 12:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 25 2004, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> aiming is a skill, why shouldn't movement be one? A player who practices bhop should be able to go faster, it makes sense and improves gameplay.
Movement quirks like the ones that have been discovered in HL over the past ~5 years (ramp sliding, gliding, bhop, sharking, chophop etc) will probably be the thing I miss most when HL2 comes out and everyone starts playing that. I dunno the HL engine just has a very crisp feel, like I know what's gonna happen if I do x. Other engines seem too 'smooth' and unpredictable imo... like Q3 and UT series. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> sure movement is a skill, but bhopping is only one aspect of it and isn't exactly needed. from a "being skilled at movement" perspective I would value being consistently erratic (oxymoronic huh?) and being able to maintain tracking while moving (kinda bleeds back into aiming, but meh). Being able to bhop might float yer' boat, but then all its doing for you is increasing your speed. My problem is not so much with being faster... its with being exploitively fast (ie. fast enough to fool client prediction). Of course I also have my quips about how the bhopping technique essentially blows any kind of movement believability out the window. Being able to leap and pull a fairly tight U-turn through a winding corridor, killing a marine, and getting back out all without ever having hit the ground is nigh impossible without wings.... which skulks obviously don't have. But that's an argument for another time.
EDIT: Oh, and I don't know how you experienced Q3 to be less crisp than HL, in my experience it is the most finely tuned and responsive of any engine i've experienced since DOOM. I'd definitely have to agree with you on the UT though... its responsiveness is worse than a blind, deaf 90 year old tripped out on weed.
The 'flying around the corner' thing is using leap, not bhop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And if there's a movement skill which lets you go faster with more skill, (bhop) how is that bad?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically guys, headhunt Valve on that one. It's not going away, it's core HL coding. In fact, not coding things on system specs is a long term software development no-no (ever played an old DOS game on your new PC? It's stupidly fast, you end up limiting your PC to do it) yet Valve ignored that as like most of us, they didn't realise how fast PC's would be in 1, 3, 5 years time and didn't plan for their game to be still being played then.
Basically, the FPS impact can be limited, but not negated. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Movement code is entirely accesible, you can just go into pm_shared.c and have a look around. Framerate dependence is allmost completely/entirely fixable(depending on what kind of fix you have in mind) as it is accesible(in this case, and anything dealing with player physics). A fix that keeps the same feel as before would probably look pretty strange.
First, the effect of FPS on bunnyhopping is this: at a certain framerate you gain speed the fastest, that's very roughly around 50-60 FPS, after that forward acceleration takes a turn downwards. At 500 FPS or so you gain hardly any speed at all, but you are able to turn very very quickly in the air without loosing speed.
There's two possibly ways of fixing this problem without way to much coding, first there's the cheap-o brute force method. Simply think about what you want and whats the most straight forward(and usually one of the least elegant) ways of getting it is. Or, replace the movement code with better coding(might be easiest) but that might not retain the same feeling we are used to, but then again, does anybody care if it's a little different? Just removing the framerate dependence it is going to be a little different no matter what.
One possible and very non-technical, brute force kind of fix that should feel the same if you get the parameters right is this: "pretend" that all players run at 500 FPS or something rediculously large by subdividing each step through the air acceleration code into many smaller ones each frame depending on how long it was since last frame, interpolating the wishdir vector from one frame to the next in each step through the code(this is just a rotation of a unit vector in the xy-plane, as the z component is zeroed. Just determine the angle between the vectors(use the definition of scalar product in the plane) then divide that angle with the number of steps you are taking this frame. Check on with pen and paper what the transformation matrix in the plane for a rotation by an angle is. You will see that you need one sine and one cosine per frame(not step) of the angle you intend to rotate. Then just do the rotation, and run the original air acceleration code repetedly.
You need to change the amount air controll as we don't want players turning in full circles in the air, and you need to artifically exagerate the speed the player has gained(brute force: compute and compare the old and new speeds, if we have gained speed add some more speed in that direction for the horisontal component of velocity. Something like (newspeed-oldspeed)*parameter for determining the amount of more speed to add would work, then add it on(multiply a unit vector in the direction of horisontal motion with the amount of speed you want to add and then just add to player velocity)and if we have lost speed find a similar way to lessen the effect as you could stop midair really really quick otherwise).
I hope what I have said made _some_ sense, it's so hard to explain something if you don't have any feed back. This is only proof of concept, if you think a little about it I'm sure you can find much better solutions then just brute forcing it.(note: the amount of computation is still pretty small and I'm guessing that it would be of no concern for server performance.)
Movement quirks like the ones that have been discovered in HL over the past ~5 years (ramp sliding, gliding, bhop, sharking, chophop etc) will probably be the thing I miss most when HL2 comes out and everyone starts playing that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I predict people will make artificial bhopping for HL2. Just wait and see.
As for the original question, how about a sort of bhopping school? It's already been said that the best, most consistent way is to have someone who can do it show you how, yet very very few people know how to do it. So, to get the most out of this small group of people, have them show large groups of people how to bhop. Set aside some time on a server for open public lessons on how to bhop. Get the fast learners in the "class" to help others. Once people learn how, get them to donate some time and teach others. Come to think of it, isn't there something like this already? LearnNS or something?
I like the idea of bhopping made more accesible, btw. I know it would help me out if I ever wanted to try being competitive at this game (I am the very definition of a casual player/pubber).
There are already bhopping 'schools', nslearn.org has been doing a fantastic job with their sessions and articles. It's just that only players who really want to get better at the game and learn new stuff goes to places like this. Another thing holding programs like this back is the attitude of the people in #naturalselection. Anything that may seem to be 'exploitive' is blackmarked there, bhopping being denounced, scripts being denounced, this way uniformed new players who might have wanted to learn bunny hopping and stuff are immediately turned off, thinking it's a 'cheat' when it's a type of movement for the aliens. Even now in the forums people think that bhopping has no place in Natural Selection which is totally untrue, denouncing it as an unacceptable cheat and exploit. This already puts a bad mark on bunnyhopping to those who might have been curious on how to do it. Then they say, "oh bhopping shouldn't be allowed because no one can learn it that easily" when in fact they can if they actively search out people who is willing to teach them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Oct 25 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 25 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The 'flying around the corner' thing is using leap, not bhop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, but the same mechanism that allows for bhopping also makes 'flying around the corner' possible. Even if I was convinced that bhopping should be left in and exemplified as not only a valid, but even necessary skill to use for aliens, I would still feel that any measure taken to get rid of the 'flying around the corner' effect would be worth it (ie. getting rid of the mechanism that allows for bhopping).
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Oct 26 2004, 03:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Oct 26 2004, 03:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> /me points to link in my siganture
new players can learn how to bunnyhop themselves. just provide tutorials on how to. you can possibly add the _special jump script built in or some other bhop script, that would be kinda nice.
but seriously, to learn the motion of bhopping you just need to practice.
<!--QuoteBegin-c4t+Oct 26 2004, 10:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (c4t @ Oct 26 2004, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but seriously, to learn the motion of bhopping you just need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Slight correction.. you need to find out about it, usually by going out of the game to some forums or something, then you need to practice.
<!--QuoteBegin-AoF.Palin+Oct 26 2004, 05:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AoF.Palin @ Oct 26 2004, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Oct 25 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 25 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The 'flying around the corner' thing is using leap, not bhop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, but the same mechanism that allows for bhopping also makes 'flying around the corner' possible. Even if I was convinced that bhopping should be left in and exemplified as not only a valid, but even necessary skill to use for aliens, I would still feel that any measure taken to get rid of the 'flying around the corner' effect would be worth it (ie. getting rid of the mechanism that allows for bhopping). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ok? air control is good, not bad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Oct 27 2004, 02:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Oct 27 2004, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-c4t+Oct 26 2004, 10:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (c4t @ Oct 26 2004, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but seriously, to learn the motion of bhopping you just need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slight correction.. you need to find out about it, usually by going out of the game to some forums or something, then you need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, im pretty sure www.nslearn.org is stickied somewhere here, on the official forums. all they need ot do is link them. they give a demo of how to bhop, a pretty detailed text document, and whats this? theres even a map called ns_bhop!!!???
i used none of those, somebody jsut told me look left when you strafe left vice versa, and through about an hour of trying to get it i did, then it was just getting used to the maps from there.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Oct 27 2004, 03:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Oct 27 2004, 03:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-c4t+Oct 26 2004, 10:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (c4t @ Oct 26 2004, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but seriously, to learn the motion of bhopping you just need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slight correction.. you need to find out about it, usually by going out of the game to some forums or something, then you need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not hard to find out at all about bunny hopping, it's just the general mentality of certain players on various servers these days that hold the concept back. If bhopping was truly generally accepted, then the information on how to bhop can be VERY easy to be passed along. Hell, you wouldn't even need tutorials because they could be taught on the spot by patient, more experienced players.
It's not hard to figure out something unique is going on to skulks by completely new players when the skulks seem to be zooming at times compared to their regular running speed. The new player could say something like, "Whoa, that skulk is moving uber fast! Why?" In an bhop accepted community, a few people would explain that it's bunny hopping. When the newbie asks "How do I do it, it's cool and as you people said, necessary!" The experienced players would then take some time to explain how to bhop, maybe even work with the new player. However, in a bunny hopping rejected community, seems like half of NS right now which is sad, if a new player asks what the speeding skulk is doing, the players on the server who hate bhopping would quickly say it's an exploit in the game, don't touch it, ignore it, rawr!
See the difference? Easily corrected problem, just relies on the community.
Ive taught a few people to bunnyhop, and the best seems to be 0 grav, and practising the movement without the jumping (suspended in mid-air, big room, just use air acceleration)
Then once the player manages to grasp the movement, he can try with a 3jump and 800 grav.
Seems to work alright... practice makes perfect anywhom :X
Edit: this has already been done, but without the 0 grav.
It's too difficult for a newb-to-bhopping to just watch and learn. Step by step would be best.
<!--QuoteBegin-.cheeZ.+Oct 27 2004, 10:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (.cheeZ. @ Oct 27 2004, 10:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just make an NSLearn "learn to bhop" map...
Ive taught a few people to bunnyhop, and the best seems to be 0 grav, and practising the movement without the jumping (suspended in mid-air, big room, just use air acceleration)
Then once the player manages to grasp the movement, he can try with a 3jump and 800 grav.
Seems to work alright... practice makes perfect anywhom :X
Edit: this has already been done, but without the 0 grav.
It's too difficult for a newb-to-bhopping to just watch and learn. Step by step would be best. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the map ns_bhop has one, nice open hallways to practice, two it has these balance beem things that i dont think helped me very much. like i learned how to bunnyhop then i could do those. they aslo have stairs that you cah bhop up as a rine. (rines can bhop as long as the next level is higher)
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Oct 27 2004, 02:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 27 2004, 02:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok? air control is good, not bad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that would be where we fundamentally differ. I must admit a slight amount of air control is needed for most basic things like jumping on top of boxes and such, but past that it is simply a failure of the engine/game to manage such things. There are plenty of really popular games out nowadays that have only the very slightest bit of of air accelleration.... though generally speaking you don't find any bhopping on those games either... not like in HL, Q3, or other quake-based games. Essentially, past the small amount of air accelleration needed for the smallest set of tasks (such as jumping on boxes etc...) it simply isn't needed, not to mention the abuse of it leads to a general absolution of faith that the physics controlling the game are believeable (note i did not say "real")
I don't care how much skill is required to pull something off, if I (while enthralled and "part of the game" so to speak) see something that doesn't seem believable then I simply begin enjoying the game less and less. Competitiveness and skill flaunting just doesn't do it for me, I'll admit. While I don't particularly mind the idea that someone is better than me at this game (which many many people are) I can still have fun with the game because it is an exciting, and most of the time, believable experience. I can even stand the bhopping to some degree as it comes to believability.... but not the leaping tight turns. Skulks don't have wings and as such should not be able to do that... its as simple as that. Thus any measure that prevents them from doing such is a good one in my book.
Again, it simply comes down to a difference of perspective. You think air control is good, I think we can easily do without. One thing I do hope we can agree upon is some sort of compromise on the issue... you know... where everyone wins!
The air control is what helps to define HL. Sorry man but if you really hate HL then you are probably better off finding another game, because no one, and I mean NO ONE, is gonna get valve to change their minds otherwise (unless you have a fat wallet...)
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
You're talking about a believable experience which involves sentient alien lifeforms that take over non-existant spacestations and starships while small squads of men armed with weapons similar to what we use today go in and try to exterminate them, then complain that it's not believable that they could leap around corners or do some type of jumping manuveur that speeds them up. Right. They're freaking aliens, they teleport around, leap down hallways in less than a second, sling blobs of acid, and eat men whole. How much more unbelievable is a small nimble alien doing a uturn in midair? Come on, at least give a "reasonable" excuse for why you don't like people gaining incredible skill at a game.
It might help if there were some mention of the existence of bunnyhopping anywhere in the game or manual. The single biggest obstacle to people being good at bunnyhopping is that they don't even know what it is. A newbie basically has to get lucky and have someone mention it in game and then beg other players for more info or search the forums. Its easy to go months playing halflife without having any knowledge of the existance of bunnyhopping much less how to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin-BreakfastSausages+Oct 28 2004, 02:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BreakfastSausages @ Oct 28 2004, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It might help if there were some mention of the existence of bunnyhopping anywhere in the game or manual. The single biggest obstacle to people being good at bunnyhopping is that they don't even know what it is. A newbie basically has to get lucky and have someone mention it in game and then beg other players for more info or search the forums. Its easy to go months playing halflife without having any knowledge of the existance of bunnyhopping much less how to do it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Almost all the cs'ers out there now a days haven't got a clue what bunnyhopping is.
All classes slow to standard speed on landing, no exceptions.
When skulks jump they are instantly sped up to base speed + bonus%.
Aircontrol is still possible for an extra boost (and to leave some skill in).
---
<span style='color:orange'>This basically means you no longer have to time jumps to anywhere near the same level. When you land you are slowed to base speed, so the concept of keeping speed up disappears... only the time you spend on the ground affects your speed, 0.2 seconds on the ground will have little effect as it simply means you are not hopping for that 0.2 seconds, the additional loss of speed from standard bunnyhopping no longer makes a difference as it now occurs at all times.</span>
<span style='color:orange'>This also means the ability for larger classes to bunnyhop is lost (unless you choose to apply the same bonus to some of them... personally I only see skulks as a jumping class.)</span>
This still restricts skulks to the ground, thus it isn't "free celerity"... at least until someone codes in wall jumping. However if the basic movement is so easy to do then base speed or the bonus from jumping only (or both) can be lowered if required.
<span style='color:orange'>The jumping nature of the skulk (some of the reasoning behind keeping bhop was that it was keeping with the feel of aliens) is retained, while hopefully removing it from the aliens which it doesn't fit.</span>
<span style='color:orange'>Skill elements are retained in the aircontrol, the boost from simply jumping encourages players to do so even if they can't perform the necessary movements for greater speed, this encourages skulks to jump around thus adding to the alien feel... players performing the jumps are more likely to attempt to learn the aircontrol elements.</span>
When jumping, skulks move at base speed + bonus% in the direction they are facing.
Aircontrol is still possible for an extra boost (and to leave some skill in), possibly with a lower cap due to the added benefits.
When jumping skulks automatically disable their wallwalk code before the action occurs.
---
Adds in the oft suggested wall jumping - this fits in even better with the alien feel, jumping to and fro across walls instead of turning strangely in mid air along the floor.
This may suggest free celerity to some people, however if the basic movement is so easy to do then base speed or the bonus from jumping only (or both) can be lowered if required.
<span style='color:orange'>See the orange points for the previous idea.</span>
Jumping for speed is more intuitive than the current implementation, the quirks are learnt faster when the basis of the feature is easy to understand.
Just some thoughts that came to me, I'm still in favour of many of the other suggestions about, quake style jumping, building in jump spam to +jump, etc etc.
I like Kalias idea #2 i think. Kinda fits the both sides into a common ground where the skill to bhop is still useful, but the skill disparity is also not nearly as large as to feel less skilled left out of the game and any hope of winning due to them not being able to bhop.
As for the point that TheAdj' makes... I never said that I didn't also have believability gripes with other aspects of the game... this thread is primarily based around bhopping. As such I thought it pertinent only to mention that which was related, if only loosely, to bhopping. At the same time though, I thought I made the distinction between realism and believability. Obviously most, if not all, of the stuff in NS isn't all that realistic, but I'd argue that a fair amount is still believable.
Its the same kind of believeability that allows one to read a fantasy novel and accept that people can summon undead minions and summon the elements to their fingertips with but a simple incantation. Then again, if you don't have the imaginative capacity to allow for these altered realities then I could see where you might blur the distinction between realism and believability.
Perhaps if they made the simply cosmetic touchup of having some webbed forearms which with they can use to somewhat glide after propelling themselves into the air, then I'd probably believe their ability to do leaping u-turns. Then again, perhaps that is the end solution to it. Gosh I love thinking outside the box from time to time.
Comments
Walljumping would be an interesting alternative....that, or at least make it so a skulk can actually navigate along walls most of the time without getting stuck. People only ever make use of the ceiling and walls to get into vents/ambush spots. Can't make use of it as an evasive tactic unless you're in specific areas where the walls are smooth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
alias +j "+jump;+moveup"
alias -j "-jump;-moveup"
bind space +j
Use the walls <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NS has such a huge range of stunt moves. Same with most HL mods frankly. It's the engine. Turning and strafing, learning how to precisely control yourself in the air. It's like there's another level of skill buried merely in how you move and how you navigate the environment.
Frankly I like it. It adds more realism to the game. Imagine you had nothing to do with your life except train your body to be a fighting tool. You can jump from the floor to a handrail in a single leap, and land on the rail perfectly balanced, or leap off the rail like a stairstep, you can flawlessly leap across deep pits onto ladders, and flawlessly springboard off of them. With some good timing, you can run full speed at a barely human-sized vent, jump at it, pull your body closer together in midair, and land inside the vent and immediately start crouchwalking, and you can do it all in full body armor and combat boots with a compact rifle. About the only thing you can't do is climb sheer rock walls and possibly jump at a wall and jump off of it at a higher altitude. With sufficient training and enough practice and finesse and body self-knowledge, these actions SHOULD be humanly possible. The human body is descended from animals that spent most of their days swinging from branches. If it's not physically impossible, like squeezing under the crack of a door like a roach, then it shouldn't be past the human ability.
Plus, TSA marines get nanites! They're virtually cyborgs. That's why the average TSA marine can jump and run like a gazelle.
I'm a little confused why marines can't run at the walls, jump up at them and backflip off over the back of the skulk chasing them. I'm convinced that all the TSA marines could do this without the weight of their armor. They recruit breakdancers and circe du soleil members, I think. Why WOULDN'T you want the finest human specimens to be the ones to fight the xenoform menace? The TSA wants a Riddick with a human heart.
Not sure where I was going with this other than I like the HL engine, and all its flaws.
What the TSA wants (or any military power for that matter) is rarely what they get.
Generally speaking, break dancers and such would have a much more lucrative life as an entertainer of some sort. Why on earth would they want to trade a possibly insoluble fortune and fame for the grungy life of a soldier with little pay and even less assurance of life.
Still... its an interesting premise.
Movement quirks like the ones that have been discovered in HL over the past ~5 years (ramp sliding, gliding, bhop, sharking, chophop etc) will probably be the thing I miss most when HL2 comes out and everyone starts playing that. I dunno the HL engine just has a very crisp feel, like I know what's gonna happen if I do x. Other engines seem too 'smooth' and unpredictable imo... like Q3 and UT series. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure movement is a skill, but bhopping is only one aspect of it and isn't exactly needed. from a "being skilled at movement" perspective I would value being consistently erratic (oxymoronic huh?) and being able to maintain tracking while moving (kinda bleeds back into aiming, but meh). Being able to bhop might float yer' boat, but then all its doing for you is increasing your speed. My problem is not so much with being faster... its with being exploitively fast (ie. fast enough to fool client prediction). Of course I also have my quips about how the bhopping technique essentially blows any kind of movement believability out the window. Being able to leap and pull a fairly tight U-turn through a winding corridor, killing a marine, and getting back out all without ever having hit the ground is nigh impossible without wings.... which skulks obviously don't have. But that's an argument for another time.
EDIT: Oh, and I don't know how you experienced Q3 to be less crisp than HL, in my experience it is the most finely tuned and responsive of any engine i've experienced since DOOM. I'd definitely have to agree with you on the UT though... its responsiveness is worse than a blind, deaf 90 year old tripped out on weed.
And if there's a movement skill which lets you go faster with more skill, (bhop) how is that bad?
Basically, the FPS impact can be limited, but not negated. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Movement code is entirely accesible, you can just go into pm_shared.c and have a look around. Framerate dependence is allmost completely/entirely fixable(depending on what kind of fix you have in mind) as it is accesible(in this case, and anything dealing with player physics). A fix that keeps the same feel as before would probably look pretty strange.
First, the effect of FPS on bunnyhopping is this: at a certain framerate you gain speed the fastest, that's very roughly around 50-60 FPS, after that forward acceleration takes a turn downwards. At 500 FPS or so you gain hardly any speed at all, but you are able to turn very very quickly in the air without loosing speed.
There's two possibly ways of fixing this problem without way to much coding, first there's the cheap-o brute force method. Simply think about what you want and whats the most straight forward(and usually one of the least elegant) ways of getting it is. Or, replace the movement code with better coding(might be easiest) but that might not retain the same feeling we are used to, but then again, does anybody care if it's a little different? Just removing the framerate dependence it is going to be a little different no matter what.
One possible and very non-technical, brute force kind of fix that should feel the same if you get the parameters right is this: "pretend" that all players run at 500 FPS or something rediculously large by subdividing each step through the air acceleration code into many smaller ones each frame depending on how long it was since last frame, interpolating the wishdir vector from one frame to the next in each step through the code(this is just a rotation of a unit vector in the xy-plane, as the z component is zeroed. Just determine the angle between the vectors(use the definition of scalar product in the plane) then divide that angle with the number of steps you are taking this frame. Check on with pen and paper what the transformation matrix in the plane for a rotation by an angle is. You will see that you need one sine and one cosine per frame(not step) of the angle you intend to rotate. Then just do the rotation, and run the original air acceleration code repetedly.
You need to change the amount air controll as we don't want players turning in full circles in the air, and you need to artifically exagerate the speed the player has gained(brute force: compute and compare the old and new speeds, if we have gained speed add some more speed in that direction for the horisontal component of velocity. Something like (newspeed-oldspeed)*parameter for determining the amount of more speed to add would work, then add it on(multiply a unit vector in the direction of horisontal motion with the amount of speed you want to add and then just add to player velocity)and if we have lost speed find a similar way to lessen the effect as you could stop midair really really quick otherwise).
I hope what I have said made _some_ sense, it's so hard to explain something if you don't have any feed back. This is only proof of concept, if you think a little about it I'm sure you can find much better solutions then just brute forcing it.(note: the amount of computation is still pretty small and I'm guessing that it would be of no concern for server performance.)
/me points to #4
/me smiles
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Movement quirks like the ones that have been discovered in HL over the past ~5 years (ramp sliding, gliding, bhop, sharking, chophop etc) will probably be the thing I miss most when HL2 comes out and everyone starts playing that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I predict people will make artificial bhopping for HL2. Just wait and see.
As for the original question, how about a sort of bhopping school? It's already been said that the best, most consistent way is to have someone who can do it show you how, yet very very few people know how to do it. So, to get the most out of this small group of people, have them show large groups of people how to bhop. Set aside some time on a server for open public lessons on how to bhop. Get the fast learners in the "class" to help others. Once people learn how, get them to donate some time and teach others.
Come to think of it, isn't there something like this already? LearnNS or something?
I like the idea of bhopping made more accesible, btw. I know it would help me out if I ever wanted to try being competitive at this game (I am the very definition of a casual player/pubber).
Right, but the same mechanism that allows for bhopping also makes 'flying around the corner' possible. Even if I was convinced that bhopping should be left in and exemplified as not only a valid, but even necessary skill to use for aliens, I would still feel that any measure taken to get rid of the 'flying around the corner' effect would be worth it (ie. getting rid of the mechanism that allows for bhopping).
/me points to #4
/me smiles
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<3's
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new players can learn how to bunnyhop themselves. just provide tutorials on how to. you can possibly add the _special jump script built in or some other bhop script, that would be kinda nice.
but seriously, to learn the motion of bhopping you just need to practice.
Slight correction.. you need to find out about it, usually by going out of the game to some forums or something, then you need to practice.
Right, but the same mechanism that allows for bhopping also makes 'flying around the corner' possible. Even if I was convinced that bhopping should be left in and exemplified as not only a valid, but even necessary skill to use for aliens, I would still feel that any measure taken to get rid of the 'flying around the corner' effect would be worth it (ie. getting rid of the mechanism that allows for bhopping). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok? air control is good, not bad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Slight correction.. you need to find out about it, usually by going out of the game to some forums or something, then you need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, im pretty sure www.nslearn.org is stickied somewhere here, on the official forums. all they need ot do is link them. they give a demo of how to bhop, a pretty detailed text document, and whats this? theres even a map called ns_bhop!!!???
i used none of those, somebody jsut told me look left when you strafe left vice versa, and through about an hour of trying to get it i did, then it was just getting used to the maps from there.
practice is all yeh need.
Slight correction.. you need to find out about it, usually by going out of the game to some forums or something, then you need to practice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not hard to find out at all about bunny hopping, it's just the general mentality of certain players on various servers these days that hold the concept back. If bhopping was truly generally accepted, then the information on how to bhop can be VERY easy to be passed along. Hell, you wouldn't even need tutorials because they could be taught on the spot by patient, more experienced players.
It's not hard to figure out something unique is going on to skulks by completely new players when the skulks seem to be zooming at times compared to their regular running speed. The new player could say something like, "Whoa, that skulk is moving uber fast! Why?" In an bhop accepted community, a few people would explain that it's bunny hopping. When the newbie asks "How do I do it, it's cool and as you people said, necessary!" The experienced players would then take some time to explain how to bhop, maybe even work with the new player. However, in a bunny hopping rejected community, seems like half of NS right now which is sad, if a new player asks what the speeding skulk is doing, the players on the server who hate bhopping would quickly say it's an exploit in the game, don't touch it, ignore it, rawr!
See the difference? Easily corrected problem, just relies on the community.
Ive taught a few people to bunnyhop, and the best seems to be 0 grav, and practising the movement without the jumping (suspended in mid-air, big room, just use air acceleration)
Then once the player manages to grasp the movement, he can try with a 3jump and 800 grav.
Seems to work alright... practice makes perfect anywhom :X
Edit: this has already been done, but without the 0 grav.
It's too difficult for a newb-to-bhopping to just watch and learn. Step by step would be best.
Ive taught a few people to bunnyhop, and the best seems to be 0 grav, and practising the movement without the jumping (suspended in mid-air, big room, just use air acceleration)
Then once the player manages to grasp the movement, he can try with a 3jump and 800 grav.
Seems to work alright... practice makes perfect anywhom :X
Edit: this has already been done, but without the 0 grav.
It's too difficult for a newb-to-bhopping to just watch and learn. Step by step would be best. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the map ns_bhop has one, nice open hallways to practice, two it has these balance beem things that i dont think helped me very much. like i learned how to bunnyhop then i could do those. they aslo have stairs that you cah bhop up as a rine. (rines can bhop as long as the next level is higher)
And that would be where we fundamentally differ. I must admit a slight amount of air control is needed for most basic things like jumping on top of boxes and such, but past that it is simply a failure of the engine/game to manage such things. There are plenty of really popular games out nowadays that have only the very slightest bit of of air accelleration.... though generally speaking you don't find any bhopping on those games either... not like in HL, Q3, or other quake-based games. Essentially, past the small amount of air accelleration needed for the smallest set of tasks (such as jumping on boxes etc...) it simply isn't needed, not to mention the abuse of it leads to a general absolution of faith that the physics controlling the game are believeable (note i did not say "real")
I don't care how much skill is required to pull something off, if I (while enthralled and "part of the game" so to speak) see something that doesn't seem believable then I simply begin enjoying the game less and less. Competitiveness and skill flaunting just doesn't do it for me, I'll admit. While I don't particularly mind the idea that someone is better than me at this game (which many many people are) I can still have fun with the game because it is an exciting, and most of the time, believable experience. I can even stand the bhopping to some degree as it comes to believability.... but not the leaping tight turns. Skulks don't have wings and as such should not be able to do that... its as simple as that. Thus any measure that prevents them from doing such is a good one in my book.
Again, it simply comes down to a difference of perspective. You think air control is good, I think we can easily do without. One thing I do hope we can agree upon is some sort of compromise on the issue... you know... where everyone wins!
Almost all the cs'ers out there now a days haven't got a clue what bunnyhopping is.
All classes slow to standard speed on landing, no exceptions.
When skulks jump they are instantly sped up to base speed + bonus%.
Aircontrol is still possible for an extra boost (and to leave some skill in).
---
<span style='color:orange'>This basically means you no longer have to time jumps to anywhere near the same level.
When you land you are slowed to base speed, so the concept of keeping speed up disappears... only the time you spend on the ground affects your speed, 0.2 seconds on the ground will have little effect as it simply means you are not hopping for that 0.2 seconds, the additional loss of speed from standard bunnyhopping no longer makes a difference as it now occurs at all times.</span>
<span style='color:orange'>This also means the ability for larger classes to bunnyhop is lost (unless you choose to apply the same bonus to some of them... personally I only see skulks as a jumping class.)</span>
This still restricts skulks to the ground, thus it isn't "free celerity"... at least until someone codes in wall jumping. However if the basic movement is so easy to do then base speed or the bonus from jumping only (or both) can be lowered if required.
<span style='color:orange'>The jumping nature of the skulk (some of the reasoning behind keeping bhop was that it was keeping with the feel of aliens) is retained, while hopefully removing it from the aliens which it doesn't fit.</span>
<span style='color:orange'>Skill elements are retained in the aircontrol, the boost from simply jumping encourages players to do so even if they can't perform the necessary movements for greater speed, this encourages skulks to jump around thus adding to the alien feel... players performing the jumps are more likely to attempt to learn the aircontrol elements.</span>
<span style='color:green'>===================================================</span>
<span style='color:red'>Idea two -</span>
Slow all classes to base speed on landing.
When jumping, skulks move at base speed + bonus% in the direction they are facing.
Aircontrol is still possible for an extra boost (and to leave some skill in), possibly with a lower cap due to the added benefits.
When jumping skulks automatically disable their wallwalk code before the action occurs.
---
Adds in the oft suggested wall jumping - this fits in even better with the alien feel, jumping to and fro across walls instead of turning strangely in mid air along the floor.
This may suggest free celerity to some people, however if the basic movement is so easy to do then base speed or the bonus from jumping only (or both) can be lowered if required.
<span style='color:orange'>See the orange points for the previous idea.</span>
<span style='color:green'>===================================================</span>
Jumping for speed is more intuitive than the current implementation, the quirks are learnt faster when the basis of the feature is easy to understand.
Just some thoughts that came to me, I'm still in favour of many of the other suggestions about, quake style jumping, building in jump spam to +jump, etc etc.
I think bunnyhopping shouldn't be so FPS dependant. Set your FPS max to 20 and see how fast you go when bhopping, now set it to 100.
Big difference.
As for the point that TheAdj' makes... I never said that I didn't also have believability gripes with other aspects of the game... this thread is primarily based around bhopping. As such I thought it pertinent only to mention that which was related, if only loosely, to bhopping. At the same time though, I thought I made the distinction between realism and believability. Obviously most, if not all, of the stuff in NS isn't all that realistic, but I'd argue that a fair amount is still believable.
Its the same kind of believeability that allows one to read a fantasy novel and accept that people can summon undead minions and summon the elements to their fingertips with but a simple incantation. Then again, if you don't have the imaginative capacity to allow for these altered realities then I could see where you might blur the distinction between realism and believability.
Perhaps if they made the simply cosmetic touchup of having some webbed forearms which with they can use to somewhat glide after propelling themselves into the air, then I'd probably believe their ability to do leaping u-turns. Then again, perhaps that is the end solution to it. Gosh I love thinking outside the box from time to time.