L Poly Vs H Poly And Other Content 2

CplDavis · October 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Keeping the game open to who?</div> Forgive me if this has already been posted but I didnt find anything so here goes.

Does anyone know what types of (if any) criteria/limits went into the making of the default models and textures for NS or any mod for example.?

I mean not to bash on the work of any of the artists who worked on default content (b/c they are truly very nice <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /> andi could not do any better myself) but like any mod you will always find suburb high res/poly replacements out there.

From my understanding (which may be wrong so correct me if so)
One of the main arguments of keeping polys and other more "graphic intensive" things down is 1. First of all the use of the older HL engine.
and 2. To keep the game playable on users with low end systems.

Now. On point one. Compare the bland default CS M4 carbine (which could easily have been redone and improved in later releases) model to some of the highly detailed,skinned, and modeled custom replacements out there.

Which still run perfectly well on a low end computer (b/c Ive tried). And as we have all seen over the span of many mods, improvments and advancements with sprites, and other things like drivable vehicals are not that un common.
Even if it were up to keeping the content being produced to ONLY to the core official developers, Im sure they have the skill to make a better quality model.

So leading to point 2.

According to the latest round of valve surveys.
<a href='http://steampowered.com/status/survey.html' target='_blank'>http://steampowered.com/status/survey.html</a>

By FAR the average HL mod user
Plays on something higher than a 56k modem
Has 256 Mb to 512 Mb
Has at least a 1.5 Ghz to 1.7 Ghz PC
And Id say at least 3/4 of the surveyed population have a GFX card that is More than capable of playing default HL.

So why do so many people insist on keeping everything so low detail? So that it runs so extra "l33t" on their PC?
I mean i myself in the past gamed countless hours of CS and DOD on my crappy 400 mhz PC (which constitutes only 0.22% of the surveyed HL mod community btw) and ran awsome custom work on a crappy PCI voodoo gfx card and I still had a pretty good frame rate.

And out of curiosity when develping NS, was there ever an offical poly count limit or something to that effect when making the default NS models?

I mean on one hand everyone is trying to keep everything going smooth for "all those thousands of people with low end systems" then Hl2 will comes out and I guess under this logic no one is going be playing it b/c only 75+% of the Hl community has has a PC that can run it.

PFCNublar · October 2004

I for one use the LD models for the uber "leet"ness of a better FPS/ms. Helps me kill more stuff.

While 75% of the world may have systems of a such a high quality, there is still that 25% floating around. That means one in four has a system that is less than those specs. While most of us don't use 56K anymore (at least I don't see anyone with 500-600 pings around anymore), the system specs maybe a bit less than the cut-off line of the other 75%. Mine are. However, I'm sure that no one has bare a bare minimum HL-requirement system.

Do factor in the roughly 1000 poly player modes, weapons, and buildings that are basically in NS and a lower poly count will affect the total number of polies on one's screen a lot. Such as, with SnappyCrunch's LD Pack, the marine base is now only a fraction (around 1/4 to a 1/3) of the original, default poly count. The original was like...400-700 each building, I think. Compared to 100-200 each it is a big saving.

Do note that in a server with 16 players, with 800-1100 polies each person, it adds up when you get into that huge battle for the hive, not to mention the structures.

You could say that this is like welfare for the less fortunate <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />. They are a small percentage, and you could just ignore them, but it's nice to acknowlegde that not all of us have a computer that can run HL2 without breaking a sweat.

On a side note, general v_models have less than 1800 polies each except for the Grenade Launcher & the Hand Grenade is just 8 polies shy of going 1800. Also, it is a lot easier to model something with a high poly that is nice than to make something low poly that still looks beautiful & has a good amount of detail. Optimization is the key word.

Just my two cents on the topic. This seems to be a borderline "Discussion" topic though...

Crispy · October 2004

I play with a 56k but stay on UK and European servers to get a very nice 160-200 ping. I also have optimised rates and windows settings for gaming and try to keep my drivers up to date. By the looks of that info I'm running a pretty average PC, possibly below average, but because of the effort I've put into getting drivers and optimising rates I can still compete on the Pub servers without having to d/l the lpc models.

darkflame_666 · October 2004

The better it looks, the more fun it is for me to kill with <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

Also im on a cable connection <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

SnappyCrunch · October 2004

Well, you ask a lot of questions there...

Question 1:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Does anyone know what types of (if any) criteria/limits went into the making of the default models and textures for NS or any mod for example.?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I know that when making the alien models, people were instructed to make ones that were vaugely mammalian, hence the resemblances to rats, wolverines, bats, people, and elephants, and that Flayra has a definite mental view of NS having a gritty feel to it. Hence, no laser weapons. I also know that in the Valve modelling guide, they say: </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The number of polygons in a model depends on several factors. You should have a clear idea of what your target machine is, and how many polygons it can deliver at a reasonable framerate. In Half-Life we assumed a 166mhz Pentium with 24mb of memory and a 1mb Voodoo I accelerator card. We found experimentally that in an “average” room we could display around 3,000 polygons at a “reasonable” framerate of 12-15 frames per second. However only the Gargantua, Nihilanth, Gonarch models came anywhere near this total because they all were intended to appear in very carefully designed situations. Most of the human-sized characters were between 500 to 750 polygons, and pack monsters like the Houndeye were even lower. Don’t forget to include weapon viewmodels, gib models and so on in your on-screen budget before figuring out how many polygons you can allot to a particular model.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> I imagine the NS team had a targe machine in mind, and so knew more or less how many polys they could have. I know the default NS building have roughly between 400 and 600 polys, and I don't think that was an accident. Many of the buildings have little "fiddly bits" that look kinda nice, but don't need to be there, because they don't add anything to the <i>shape</i> of the model. I believe that Flayra's instructions were for all the buildings to be close to 500 polys, and I think some of the buildings actually had to be built up from lower polycounts to meet that target rather than be stripped down from higher polycounts.

Point one:
The differences between commercial mods like CS and community mods like NS are greater than you might think. For CS, there are legal issues that stem from using a community member's models, even if they sign a release form. As far as Valve creating new CS models, it's a cost-benefit analysis. If new models won't bring in more players, and thereby more cash, it's not worth their time. And I think all the people that own CS now are all the people that are going to own CS.
As far as NS goes, making new models requires time, and that is something the devs would be better off spending making NS a more feature rich and less buggy game. NS could use some of the community created high poly models as optional defaults, but only a small percentage of models have higher poly replacements, and they tend to make HL crash. HL has these sort of nebulous poly limits, and it occasionally crashes above those limts. Problem is, nobody knows quite what those limits are. People have done tests, but it's not cut and dry. The consensus is, though, that NS is already about as high poly as HL can handle stably. That's why Black Panther removed all his high poly structure downloads. ReddMonkey has created a high poly LMG and pistol, but there's only one of them on screen at a time.

XenoHazard · October 2004

THere are alot of people less fortunate in the hardware aspect of things. We should be open to everyone!

I am on the high end of the equation, but....I still want a litte love for people on the bottom. THey deserve to play too, and if L-poly models fixes them up.....then by all means, make as many as you can.

Fox_One · October 2004

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but if they knew they were below the requirements when they bought/downloaded the game, what gives them the right to complain? I think the LD packs are nice for them, but if they can't even handle the defaults, is there much we can do?

Windburn · October 2004

I don't think there is complaining per se from those users though fox, they simply aren't justified enough to even start raising valid issues.

The thing that you have to realise with ns Cpl.Davis, is that NS pushes the very outdated HL engine to its extremes. It has a huge model count that the server needs to keep track of, as well as the possibility of many many model instances being on screen at any one time. Where half life, and most of its existing mods work fine on low end machines, many people find that NS requires much more out of their processors, and (they're allowed to love the game too) naturally they are seeking some sort of compromise to improve performance.

Personally i detest the default models, because I can't stand the HL engine in general due to the fact it doesn't 'feel new' (obviously_ - so everything in my folder is high poly.
However, when i find packs that have reduced polies and don't detract from quality (<3 Snappy) then why not give your system that edge and try to compensate in (some way) for the high poly slaughter-fest you're putting it through?

TommyVercetti · October 2004

I can run NS at 1600x1200 6xAA 16xAF with the higest poly custom models I can find and never drop below 85fps, my refresh rate, so I would welcome high poly models. If the high poly replacement pack for the defaults is ever completed, I'm definitely using it. Maybe they could be included in a release down the line as an optional "HIGH DEFINITION MODE!" thingy.

SilentMurderer · October 2004

Tommy, Even if your system can handle the high poly counts does NOT mean that the Half-Life enginge itself can handle it.

The Half-Life engine was not made for the poly counts it's being forced to used through ns. Games DO have restrictions you know <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Mr_Headcrab · October 2004

Since my good system is in the shop, I'm running on a low end system

8 meg onboard video card low end.

We lowenders may be a minority, but we're a minority that anyone can become at a moment's notice. you may have spent 300 bucks on your new Radieon, but a splitsecond mistake would turn it into an expensive coaster, forcing you back onto an outdated card, and that extra 30 FPS helps greatly when your average becomes 32.

BlackPanther · November 2004

I usually go the extra mile and catter to both high and low end users.

I'll easy spend a few more minutes to delete the backfaces and create low poly p_models for my weapons and release both in the same .zip.

Invazn · November 2004

Yay BlackPanter thinks about everyone isnt he nice?

L Poly Vs H Poly And Other Content 2

Comments