Bunnyhop - A Request For Ideas.
Shockeh
If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">If you have an opinion, keep it, kthx?</div> Hi all,
I'm just splitting this to make it's own topic, as I'd like to get a few suggestions out of it, along with an opinion on them. Basically we had a chat a while ago about how to make bunnyhop easier to learn for all players, and a few ideas bounced around. I'm not going to post any (of those ideas) unless Gren/Zunni/Nem let me okay it first, but I'd like to see what the community has for ideas.
Please note the idea is not to necessarily make it <i>easier</i> to do, I personally still think it should be a skill based thing, where you <i>learn</i> & practise & reap the benefits, so it rewards players who put in the effort. Rather, it should make it more accessible and easier to learn.
Besides, it'll make a change from complaining about us, won't it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, let's hear a few.
- Shockwave
I'm just splitting this to make it's own topic, as I'd like to get a few suggestions out of it, along with an opinion on them. Basically we had a chat a while ago about how to make bunnyhop easier to learn for all players, and a few ideas bounced around. I'm not going to post any (of those ideas) unless Gren/Zunni/Nem let me okay it first, but I'd like to see what the community has for ideas.
Please note the idea is not to necessarily make it <i>easier</i> to do, I personally still think it should be a skill based thing, where you <i>learn</i> & practise & reap the benefits, so it rewards players who put in the effort. Rather, it should make it more accessible and easier to learn.
Besides, it'll make a change from complaining about us, won't it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, let's hear a few.
- Shockwave
Comments
Edit: Ok, reread your first post and this sort of makes it easier to do... but the real hard part about learning bunnyhopping is timing, and this helps people focus on the movement rather than making sure they have 100% perfect timing.
Either that a quake style jumping system
Marines and all aliens other than lerk > +jump2 (3jump script)
Lerk > +jump (Standard jump)
/Edit: Try not to flame "HEYCHECKITOUTYO" he will see the light one day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
mfg
Lance
I agree.
The best way to learn though is probably to have someone walk you through it until you get the idea behind it. Once you understand how it works you just got to practice timing/movements.
Other then that, I can't think of anything.
Interestingly, that's precisely what I suggested as well. Adding 'Triple Jump' to the bindable commands list.
- Shockwave
-make walljump used (as it will make you slower than BH)
-make aliens hittable when they're jump-happy if the marines are medium/bad aimers (ie. me)
Walljumping is much better than BH atmospherically and gives aliens some advantage in small spaces/short corridors. Gorges won't gain from this but they're too pudgy to look as if they are agile hoppers. Fades blink, and an onos, well it shouldn't bh either <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Note: HEYCHECKITOUTYO is a competitive player, he's merely being sarcastic.
I'm OK with bhopping being in the game, I just don't like the fact that +jump needs to be bound to the mwheel for it to be done well.
--Scythe--
Mouse-wheel up/down = Jump
Space = Jump for flying and jets. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, FREE celerity for ALL life-forms! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is what _special does currently, it allows a player to merely hold down a button and continuously jump without interrupting any other commands. Quake style jumping is what I posted above, if you hit the jump key before you touch the ground, you automatically jump as soon as you touch the ground. You could hit jump in midair and when you touch the ground, you would automatically jump again.
Quake style jumping should intefere also, though i am not shure.
So if you want to include the one or the other you need either 2 different jump buttons or 1 jump button, which automatically configures itself, depending on the class you are currently playing.
I vote for the latter, since adding a new button causes confusion.
Quake style jumping should intefere also, though i am not shure.
So if you want to include the one or the other you need either 2 different jump buttons or 1 jump button, which automatically configures itself, depending on the class you are currently playing.
I vote for the latter, since adding a new button causes confusion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83803&view=findpost&p=1298252' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...dpost&p=1298252</a>
Quake style jumping should intefere also, though i am not shure.
So if you want to include the one or the other you need either 2 different jump buttons or 1 jump button, which automatically configures itself, depending on the class you are currently playing.
I vote for the latter, since adding a new button causes confusion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83803&view=findpost&p=1298252' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...dpost&p=1298252</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have enlightend my heart, good sir.
If the dev team wants it to be easy why not just increase the speed of the skulk and remove bunny hopping?
At least to me it doesnt make sence to have it both ways... It should be hard like it is now, or totally itegrated everything else would just seem out of place. Atleast to me.
If the devs go the 3 jump script way. Make it toggle able? My "n" for example, turns 3 jump on and off. The only class that suffers from a 3 jump script is the jetpack.Everything else it helps or doesnt harm.
Because if you increase the overall speed of the skulk, it now moves faster in vents, on walls, and on ceilings, while bunny hopping restricts you to the floor.
That aside, the biggest problem of getting people to learn bhopping is first education of what bhopping really is. There are far too many people nowadays that still see bhopping simply as repeatedly jumping and not so much the exploitation of the engine's movement code. This problem is difficult as is because even if you do create a training map or help files that address bhopping, you will still see a limited increase in the number of people that know what bhopping really is let alone the number of bhoppers.
Next, if you still want to go down the route of creating a tutorial map then there have to be some very sophisticated scripting and on HUD displays. The player would have to experience the computer controlling him and seeing just how much turning and visuals of what keys are being pressed all from a first person point of view. Then the player would be allowed to try and reproduce the bahavior... much like training mode in the Tekken or Virtua Fighter line of games. Essentially, just relying on the player to be able to learn it on his own will leave the possiblility that he learns what he thinks is bhopping, but either isn't or is very undeveloped and ineffective.
That means there has to be some way of rating bhops that is also implemented in the tutorial so that even if the player thinks he's doing well the tutorial will let him know otherwise.
Of course, the big question is "Is this tutorial idea even possible given the current mapping/scripting/HUD code?"
I for one am actually not for the +3jump script and the quake style jumping (continuous jumping when jump button is held down for those of you who don't know). I see them mostly as a crutch for skill. At the same time though, those who know how to make their own scripts would then still benefit from having the crutch if it wasn't given to everyone.
In the end though, I still hold to my first point and would just like to let my rejection to bhopping *EDIT: in NS* be known. *dons flame retardant suit*
Now yeah take your FIX UR BUGS N MAPS speech elsewhere, that's not what this thread is about.
As for the topic of this thread, I'm with both suggestions really.
The topic starter wanted input on ideas for allowing a larger portion of the NS population at least attempt to learn to bhop, not an obviously biased negative opinion on how bhopping shouldn't be in NS to begin with, and shouldn't be opened up to anyone beyond who knows it already.
If you think a script or intuitive jump function is a "crutch", please send demos of you bhopping using the spacebar or other single jump button (not a turbo or mwheel or macro) to theadj@gmail.com. The likelihood of you "bhopping" with such a setup is pretty low, and if you're not going above about 400 and maintaining it you're not really bhopping. The requisite skill required to bhop without any jumping aid is quite high, much higher than what 99.8% of the NS population possesses.
Ok, thread Re-Railed. Carry on.
Also the built in 3jump script wouldn't be very intuitive. Having to press jump just before you hit the ground is not something people think of as "natural".
That aside, the biggest problem of getting people to learn bhopping is first education of what bhopping really is. There are far too many people nowadays that still see bhopping simply as repeatedly jumping and not so much the exploitation of the engine's movement code. This problem is difficult as is because even if you do create a training map or help files that address bhopping, you will still see a limited increase in the number of people that know what bhopping really is let alone the number of bhoppers.
Next, if you still want to go down the route of creating a tutorial map then there have to be some very sophisticated scripting and on HUD displays. The player would have to experience the computer controlling him and seeing just how much turning and visuals of what keys are being pressed all from a first person point of view. Then the player would be allowed to try and reproduce the bahavior... much like training mode in the Tekken or Virtua Fighter line of games. Essentially, just relying on the player to be able to learn it on his own will leave the possiblility that he learns what he thinks is bhopping, but either isn't or is very undeveloped and ineffective.
That means there has to be some way of rating bhops that is also implemented in the tutorial so that even if the player thinks he's doing well the tutorial will let him know otherwise.
Of course, the big question is "Is this tutorial idea even possible given the current mapping/scripting/HUD code?"
I for one am actually not for the +3jump script and the quake style jumping (continuous jumping when jump button is held down for those of you who don't know). I see them mostly as a crutch for skill. At the same time though, those who know how to make their own scripts would then still benefit from having the crutch if it wasn't given to everyone.
In the end though, I still hold to my first point and would just like to let my rejection to bhopping *EDIT: in NS* be known. *dons flame retardant suit* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will you shut the hell up please?
Bunnyhopping is a skill, they just want to make it easier to learn. Hell if you wanted all the **** you just said then watch a person that bunnyhops. You are going ridiculously overboard with the idea of making bunnyhopping easier. NSLearn is doing a stupendous job of teach people how to bunnyhop. Anyone that has wanted to learn so far, HAS learned, no need for a damn tutorial that shows you step by step how to do it.
I'm still sticking with my idea, of bunnyhopping steps, +forward for a relative speed increase, and the more advanced strafing for a greater increase.
In reply to the person who doesn't like the idea of a quake jump system because it interferes with lerking.
bind kp_end "bind space +jump"
Hit that while your gestating to lerk, end of story. Even throw in the impulse that gestates when you hit the button. That's what I do for fading. I have a competely seperate config for fading, that is executed when I hit kp_end.
Edit: I also wouldn't mind if a quake style jumping were added with my idea, just to make it even EASIER yet again for people to learn to bunnyhop.
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There's a difference between the game taking skill into account, and balancing by skill.
Currently, in my opinion, Natural Selection is only balanced if the teams have a certain minimum level of skill. Or in other words, if you get two teams of complete newbies together, you'll see a large imbalance in who wins and who loses.
Ideally, the game is balanced so that if both teams are the same level of skill, the win should be in doubt, regardless if that level is very high or very low.
--
As for bunnyhopping, implementing +3jump into the game code itself would be a start, but it still doesn't address the basic problem of it being a completely unintuitive method of movement-enhancement, much like nose-grinding, wall-strafing, or wiggle-walking. A tutorial or inclusion in the rulebook would help, so at least people don't get the "What the heck is that?" feeling when they first see it happen. (Or in my case, on first seeing someone using wigglewalk, the feeling of "Eeesh, the half-life movement code sucks")
Personally, I'd like to see all of these unintuitive forms removed, but I've learned to not hold my breath.