If you could start with the ability as aliens to stomp or to web its web no contest. The only time stomp is even remotely close is when fighting heavies and even then only because it requires less tmwk for onos to devour.
My first post in this thread was "fades were easier to solo in 2.0x" and you being to blather about hitboxes and other crap. Just accept the fact that what I said was true, it was easier to solo a fade in 2.0 because it only took two shots, which you can't do anymore with the hp/ap that fades in 3.0 have. <u>WOW</u>
Haha, I'm running out of ways to explain this term I'm using, "practical." I gave you credit for understanding the game, or rather english.
You are more likely to get two hives than all three. <span style='color:yellow'>[</span>Confirm<span style='color:yellow'>]</span> Deny.
Stomp is a two hive ability, web is a three hive ability. <span style='color:yellow'>[</span>Confirm<span style='color:yellow'>]</span> Deny.
<b>.</b>*<b>.</b>
Stomp is more "practical" in that you are more likely to be able to use it. This would seem to be backed up by:
You see more onos than 3rd hives. <span style='color:yellow'>[</span>Confirm<span style='color:yellow'>]</span> Deny.
Sooo..
1) Stomp is more useful simply because it's lower on the tech tree and not on the tippytop branches of the tech tree which hardly anyone sees
and
2) Onos are a higher lifeform and benefit much more from the higher tech allowed by the second hive. They shouldn't really show up before the second hive is up at which point they can pull their admittedly heavy weight, which is the argument I am trying to make.
Dumbing it down this much makes me drowsy. Any more and I think the monitor might actually start flickering.
PS: Hero, don't open that can of worms. Just put the top back on and slowly walk out of the room with your back to us.
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 11:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 11:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Does someone pay you by-the-word Forlorn?
My first post in this thread was "fades were easier to solo in 2.0x" and you being to blather about hitboxes and other crap. Just accept the fact that what I said was true, it was easier to solo a fade in 2.0 because it only took two shots, which you can't do anymore with the hp/ap that fades in 3.0 have. <u>WOW</u> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Saying fades are easier to solo in 2.0 sounded like a counter argument to me saying that fades were stronger in 2.0.
No you said which skill is more effective in the context of the aliens having both abilities at the same time. Not to mention you try to make an arguement for an onos niche which is plain silly.
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades were easier to solo in 2.0x <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with rennex, fades were infinitely easier to solo in 2.01 than 3.0
By the end of 2.01 it was almost easy to solo a fade, as a lone shotty with 1/2 upgrades, you had a real good chance of killing him if he wasnt smart.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It isn't or it shouldn't be, its true that fades usually roam by themselves but it's because they are scouting the map. With blink and bunny hop, fades can move pretty damn fast, crossing long lengths of the map to keep track of marine movement. Now if the marines were smart, they would move out in squads, usually outfitted with shotguns and some sort of passive upgrades. A smart fade wouldn't charge in and try to wipe the floor with those marines because he would get totally raped. Instead, the fade would then urgently communiate to his team saying, 'This many rines are heading to <this> hive!! Need help!" Then, if the alien team was using teamwork, a lerk would immediately respond and start gassing, draining away armor, skulks would set up ambushes around corners in the next room. Then when the marines are about to enter the next room, the fade blinks in and out, drawing fire and drawing marine attention. Then the skulks rush in, bite the ankles, dead marines. The fade could even blink back into the fray and help with the slaughter. NS should be a team effort, it's just not displayed that often.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Took the words right out if my mouth.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It isn't or it shouldn't be<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay. I'll agree that it shouldn't be.
I'm even willing to agree that in competitive play, it probably isn't.
In pub play, however, the fade is the make-or-break unit. If you have a skilled fade, you'll likely win even if the rest of the team are only mediocre. If you don't have a skilled fade, you're likely to lose, even if the rest of the team is fairly skilled at their roles. (Assuming marines of comparable skill, for both situations of course)
<long hypothetical "how-it-should-be" bit snipped> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS should be a team effort, it's just not displayed that often. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, we agree on that, but the fact that you're bringing it up shows you don't understand the point that's being made, because that's what we're saying too.
The thing is, it's the power of the fade that, in pub play, means the aliens don't need a team effort to win. All they need is a good fade. No other class, marine or alien has this ability -- not even commander. A good commander can sure help, but he needs his team. A good fade in a pub only needs some defence chambers and from that point can essentially lock down the marine team on his or her own.
Similarly, an alien pub team without a good fade can kiss the game goodbye, because the marine team is balanced to expect fades at a certain point and has the firepower to try to deal with them. Unfortunately, because of the power level of the fade, this leaves the rest of the pub team having to twiddle their thumbs (whether it's avoiding the marines or looking out of the spawn queue.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A good fade in a pub only needs some defence chambers and from that point can essentially lock down the marine team on his or her own. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if the marine team is any good?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->an alien pub team without a good fade can kiss the game goodbye, because the marine team is balanced to expect fades at a certain point and has the firepower to try to deal with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suspect that if the alien team was coordinated enough they wouldn't really need a fade. Marines even at the top level are more powerful than aliens. I think that if it was 7v6 and the 7th alien player had nothing but a coms view and could help coordinate aliens would win the vast majority of games.
Fades depend too much on 2.XX's blink. I mean, why did they even give them the ability to walk? Everyone knows that fades mostly use blink to cover terrain anyway.
I say, change the way blink works (there's a great example in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80722' target='_blank'>this thread</a> called tankeblink (it even has a seperate downloadable 'mod' so you can test it in action).
Then buff their walking speed to compensate for the blink 'nerf'. Right now they can't even outrun vanilla marines. :/
You see, the recent replies from Squishy just shows how flawed the balance around the playtesters are. They play on a totally different level than the average pubber do, thus leading to some heavy imbalance when what they think is balanced puts into the "real world". I think you guys need to decide wether you want pub-play to grow, or simply only competative-play.
And FYI, I don't care which you pick, I'll still play but there are a lot of people who can't have fun on pub because they get whined when they fade and die thus leading to them never daring to fade again, or they didn't get that chamber up as gorge.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Oct 22 2004, 07:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 22 2004, 07:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades were easier to solo in 2.0x <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with rennex, fades were infinitely easier to solo in 2.01 than 3.0
By the end of 2.01 it was almost easy to solo a fade, as a lone shotty with 1/2 upgrades, you had a real good chance of killing him if he wasnt smart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades were paper in 2.0.
If you had the balls, the aim and knew where the hits registered, they went down quicker than a Thai "hostess". I nailed many a Vet fade in 2.0 testing and we all know I'm really not that good.
Seeing that I don't have the time to remove all passive aggressiviness in here, I'll have to <span style='color:red'>***lock***</span> the thread. I think everyone who wanted to made their points, anyway. Twice.
Comments
hmm .... wait.... no
If you could start with the ability as aliens to stomp or to web its web no contest. The only time stomp is even remotely close is when fighting heavies and even then only because it requires less tmwk for onos to devour.
My first post in this thread was "fades were easier to solo in 2.0x" and you being to blather about hitboxes and other crap. Just accept the fact that what I said was true, it was easier to solo a fade in 2.0 because it only took two shots, which you can't do anymore with the hp/ap that fades in 3.0 have. <u>WOW</u>
DUR DUR DUR WHY DO THE TOP SCORERS IN CS USE M4A1 DUR DUR DUR
You are more likely to get two hives than all three. <span style='color:yellow'>[</span>Confirm<span style='color:yellow'>]</span> Deny.
Stomp is a two hive ability, web is a three hive ability. <span style='color:yellow'>[</span>Confirm<span style='color:yellow'>]</span> Deny.
<b>.</b>*<b>.</b>
Stomp is more "practical" in that you are more likely to be able to use it. This would seem to be backed up by:
You see more onos than 3rd hives. <span style='color:yellow'>[</span>Confirm<span style='color:yellow'>]</span> Deny.
Sooo..
1) Stomp is more useful simply because it's lower on the tech tree and not on the tippytop branches of the tech tree which hardly anyone sees
and
2) Onos are a higher lifeform and benefit much more from the higher tech allowed by the second hive. They shouldn't really show up before the second hive is up at which point they can pull their admittedly heavy weight, which is the argument I am trying to make.
Dumbing it down this much makes me drowsy. Any more and I think the monitor might actually start flickering.
PS: Hero, don't open that can of worms. Just put the top back on and slowly walk out of the room with your back to us.
My first post in this thread was "fades were easier to solo in 2.0x" and you being to blather about hitboxes and other crap. Just accept the fact that what I said was true, it was easier to solo a fade in 2.0 because it only took two shots, which you can't do anymore with the hp/ap that fades in 3.0 have. <u>WOW</u> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying fades are easier to solo in 2.0 sounded like a counter argument to me saying that fades were stronger in 2.0.
Please play again.
Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with rennex, fades were infinitely easier to solo in 2.01 than 3.0
By the end of 2.01 it was almost easy to solo a fade, as a lone shotty with 1/2 upgrades, you had a real good chance of killing him if he wasnt smart.
It isn't or it shouldn't be, its true that fades usually roam by themselves but it's because they are scouting the map. With blink and bunny hop, fades can move pretty damn fast, crossing long lengths of the map to keep track of marine movement. Now if the marines were smart, they would move out in squads, usually outfitted with shotguns and some sort of passive upgrades. A smart fade wouldn't charge in and try to wipe the floor with those marines because he would get totally raped. Instead, the fade would then urgently communiate to his team saying, 'This many rines are heading to <this> hive!! Need help!" Then, if the alien team was using teamwork, a lerk would immediately respond and start gassing, draining away armor, skulks would set up ambushes around corners in the next room. Then when the marines are about to enter the next room, the fade blinks in and out, drawing fire and drawing marine attention. Then the skulks rush in, bite the ankles, dead marines. The fade could even blink back into the fray and help with the slaughter. NS should be a team effort, it's just not displayed that often.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Took the words right out if my mouth.
Okay. I'll agree that it shouldn't be.
I'm even willing to agree that in competitive play, it probably isn't.
In pub play, however, the fade is the make-or-break unit. If you have a skilled fade, you'll likely win even if the rest of the team are only mediocre. If you don't have a skilled fade, you're likely to lose, even if the rest of the team is fairly skilled at their roles. (Assuming marines of comparable skill, for both situations of course)
<long hypothetical "how-it-should-be" bit snipped>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS should be a team effort, it's just not displayed that often. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, we agree on that, but the fact that you're bringing it up shows you don't understand the point that's being made, because that's what we're saying too.
The thing is, it's the power of the fade that, in pub play, means the aliens don't need a team effort to win. All they need is a good fade. No other class, marine or alien has this ability -- not even commander. A good commander can sure help, but he needs his team. A good fade in a pub only needs some defence chambers and from that point can essentially lock down the marine team on his or her own.
Similarly, an alien pub team without a good fade can kiss the game goodbye, because the marine team is balanced to expect fades at a certain point and has the firepower to try to deal with them. Unfortunately, because of the power level of the fade, this leaves the rest of the pub team having to twiddle their thumbs (whether it's avoiding the marines or looking out of the spawn queue.)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if the marine team is any good?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->an alien pub team without a good fade can kiss the game goodbye, because the marine team is balanced to expect fades at a certain point and has the firepower to try to deal with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suspect that if the alien team was coordinated enough they wouldn't really need a fade. Marines even at the top level are more powerful than aliens. I think that if it was 7v6 and the 7th alien player had nothing but a coms view and could help coordinate aliens would win the vast majority of games.
I say, change the way blink works (there's a great example in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80722' target='_blank'>this thread</a> called tankeblink (it even has a seperate downloadable 'mod' so you can test it in action).
Then buff their walking speed to compensate for the blink 'nerf'.
Right now they can't even outrun vanilla marines. :/
And FYI, I don't care which you pick, I'll still play but there are a lot of people who can't have fun on pub because they get whined when they fade and die thus leading to them never daring to fade again, or they didn't get that chamber up as gorge.
Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with rennex, fades were infinitely easier to solo in 2.01 than 3.0
By the end of 2.01 it was almost easy to solo a fade, as a lone shotty with 1/2 upgrades, you had a real good chance of killing him if he wasnt smart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades were paper in 2.0.
If you had the balls, the aim and knew where the hits registered, they went down quicker than a Thai "hostess". I nailed many a Vet fade in 2.0 testing and we all know I'm really not that good.