Ha In Co
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Suggestions to make it more useful</div> Currently in Combat, marines have two top tier options to choose from: jetpacks and heavy armour. However, due to the nature of Combat gameplay, HA is next to worthless compared to jetpacks.
Jetpacks:
- Allows the marine to traverse the map very quickly and avoid some attacks.
- When combined with a shotgun or gl, this allows the marine to almost certainly get a few shots into the hive; even with skilled lerks, focus leaping skulks and webbing gorges, chances are that the marine will land some shots on the hive. As he can do this again a short time later, this gives him a steady stream of exp, as well as damaging the alien side.
- Renders him immune to stomp.
- Allows him to camp vents quite successfully, notching up numerous kills that otherwise would be difficult to gain
Heavy Armour
- Allows the marine to absorb more attacks
- Makes the marine a devour sponge. Any marine that gets HA is virtually guareenteed to be singled out as the target of a devour.
- Immune to spores
It's simply not worthwhile to get HA in Combat. The advantages granted by a jetpack outweigh HA advantages by far. Absorbing some additional attacks is rather pointless given that in many cases, welding rarely occurs, and even if it does, the ability to outright dodge attacks combined with resupply means that the average jetpacker survives far longer than the average HA. Immunity to stomp > immunity to spores; no matter how much lerks spore spam, resupply counters it. Yes, low armour marines can be focus-attacked quite easily, but to spend two points on HA simply to render spores useless is rather pointless, given as I have mentioned above that the ability to dodge attacks is greater than the ability to take more. Plus, the jetpacker can chase the lerk down or jump up to where it is positioned. HA can't.
Finally there's the devour issue. A jetpack-shotgun/hmg is a pretty good onos counter, at least in larger rooms. Even in smaller ones though, immunity to stomp and the ability to move quickly away can and does allow jetpack marines to take down oni. Compare this to HA. Oni are *designed* to take down HA. At best, HA counters skulks, but then again so does a LA-LMG marine.
HA needs some kind of justification for costing 2 points. Either give it a new ability, new values, or make it 1 point. I'm posting this thread to get people's thoughts about HA and any possible ideas on how to improve it in Combat. Note that this is Combat only; Classic HAs are a differant discussion altogether.
Jetpacks:
- Allows the marine to traverse the map very quickly and avoid some attacks.
- When combined with a shotgun or gl, this allows the marine to almost certainly get a few shots into the hive; even with skilled lerks, focus leaping skulks and webbing gorges, chances are that the marine will land some shots on the hive. As he can do this again a short time later, this gives him a steady stream of exp, as well as damaging the alien side.
- Renders him immune to stomp.
- Allows him to camp vents quite successfully, notching up numerous kills that otherwise would be difficult to gain
Heavy Armour
- Allows the marine to absorb more attacks
- Makes the marine a devour sponge. Any marine that gets HA is virtually guareenteed to be singled out as the target of a devour.
- Immune to spores
It's simply not worthwhile to get HA in Combat. The advantages granted by a jetpack outweigh HA advantages by far. Absorbing some additional attacks is rather pointless given that in many cases, welding rarely occurs, and even if it does, the ability to outright dodge attacks combined with resupply means that the average jetpacker survives far longer than the average HA. Immunity to stomp > immunity to spores; no matter how much lerks spore spam, resupply counters it. Yes, low armour marines can be focus-attacked quite easily, but to spend two points on HA simply to render spores useless is rather pointless, given as I have mentioned above that the ability to dodge attacks is greater than the ability to take more. Plus, the jetpacker can chase the lerk down or jump up to where it is positioned. HA can't.
Finally there's the devour issue. A jetpack-shotgun/hmg is a pretty good onos counter, at least in larger rooms. Even in smaller ones though, immunity to stomp and the ability to move quickly away can and does allow jetpack marines to take down oni. Compare this to HA. Oni are *designed* to take down HA. At best, HA counters skulks, but then again so does a LA-LMG marine.
HA needs some kind of justification for costing 2 points. Either give it a new ability, new values, or make it 1 point. I'm posting this thread to get people's thoughts about HA and any possible ideas on how to improve it in Combat. Note that this is Combat only; Classic HAs are a differant discussion altogether.
Comments
The easiest and most practical solution is to make HA avalible for 2 points right after armor 1, instead of armor 2.
I mean, what in hell is the sense of forcing HA marines to get armor 2 as HA if they don't want it, considering they are going to get a buttload of armor if they take HA, and allowing HA to come one level sooner gives it an advantage over JP.
Q.E.D.
I like the idea of throwing a free welder in with HA too. I mean...
okay think about it, the co and ns tech trees are already out of wack. Do you need to research weapons 1 before dropping shotguns at the armory? Not yet anyway. Armor 2 before the protolab allows you to drop JP or HA? Also not yet. But I mean the point is it's screwed up already just fine, throwing a free welder in with the HA package is just a nice idea to get people to use it.
Personally I wouldnt mind seeing the ability to change between HA and JPs. Kinda like aliens can switch between onos and lerk. That way it would be easier to get larger groups of HA.
Most ppl just need someone to demonstrate that ha is great. Try it, play co and rush HA (you should be on top of the score board of course), soon you will see several HA on the battlefield.
I already suggested: including a welder to ha, as well as making JP 3 points.
So yo got my vote.
Personally I wouldnt mind seeing the ability to change between HA and JPs. Kinda like aliens can switch between onos and lerk. That way it would be easier to get larger groups of HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not quite. You don't have to get a welder with Forlorn's idea giving you much more freedom of customization. And in Zek's version, HA doesn't come 1 level earlier, you just get a welder. If you already got a welder, you get the shaft. yay
I actually like lorn's idea quite a bit.
And it'd be interesting if you got your 2 points back after death so one could chose between HA or JP when they spawn again... but I'm not sure if I'm for it or not.
Bit offtopic but co_ suffers from the lack of welders, get a welder at start and you stay camping next to hive much longer.
make welders the prerequisite of HA's instead of armor levels.
so if you want HAs, youll put a point in for a welder, then 2 points for HA.
Most ppl just need someone to demonstrate that ha is great. Try it, play co and rush HA (you should be on top of the score board of course), soon you will see several HA on the battlefield.
I already suggested: including a welder to ha, as well as making JP 3 points.
So yo got my vote. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you start seeing lots of onos and your team dies. GG.
The problem is that HA's can easily be countered, while JP's can't.
Most ppl just need someone to demonstrate that ha is great. Try it, play co and rush HA (you should be on top of the score board of course), soon you will see several HA on the battlefield.
I already suggested: including a welder to ha, as well as making JP 3 points.
So yo got my vote. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you start seeing lots of onos and your team dies. GG.
The problem is that HA's can easily be countered, while JP's can't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Web.
how bout HA cost only 1 point? this way you freed another point for welder, or move HA from armor 2 to armor 3 and reduce cost to 1 point?
GLs.
Large hive rooms.
More maneuverable jetpacks.
In addition you need a selfless player willing to do what is a thankless and boring job. Such players are around, but gorging really gets boring after a while. Whereas the HA counter, the onos, is a juggernaut on the CO battlefield and a heap of fun to play.
GLs.
Large hive rooms.
More maneuverable jetpacks.
In addition you need a selfless player willing to do what is a thankless and boring job. Such players are around, but gorging really gets boring after a while. Whereas the HA counter, the onos, is a juggernaut on the CO battlefield and a heap of fun to play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Web xeno focus bite leap blink swipe spores
All kick the crap out of JP's.
The only thing JP's really have over everything else is skill, thank god. It takes skill to use and more skill to counter.
Don't want that to happen now. (sarcasm)
make welders the prerequisite of HA's instead of armor levels.
so if you want HAs, youll put a point in for a welder, then 2 points for HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome idea. It could go like this:
Jetpack(2) - Armor2(1)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
''''''''''''''''''''''''''Armor1(1) - Welder(1) - Heavy Armor (1 or 2)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''Start
(Apostrophe's for spacing.)
Of course, welder is under armor, which doesn't really make sense. JP and HA are armor options, but welders aren't.
Or, you could have a pack (suggested before), where you get mines, grenades, and a welder for 2 points. Or pack the welder with the grenades for 1 point only.
make welders the prerequisite of HA's instead of armor levels.
so if you want HAs, youll put a point in for a welder, then 2 points for HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome idea. It could go like this:
Jetpack(2) - Armor2(1)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
''''''''''''''''''''''''''Armor1(1) - Welder(1) - Heavy Armor (1 or 2)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''Start
(Apostrophe's for spacing.)
Of course, welder is under armor, which doesn't really make sense. JP and HA are armor options, but welders aren't.
Or, you could have a pack (suggested before), where you get mines, grenades, and a welder for 2 points. Or pack the welder with the grenades for 1 point only. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No this is bad because you cannot get HA any faster than JP, making HA even less used.
Start -> Welder(1) -> HA(2)
As in, take HA off the armor branch completely.
But still a level 2 or 3 HA marine would be a pretty tough chew for a skulk.
Anyhow just make it branch off armor 1 plz
So it'd be like this:
Jetpack(2) - Armor2(1)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
''''''''''''''''''''''''''Armor1(1) - Heavy Armor (1)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''Start
The rest is same with the exception of course, of the welder being included in the resupply upgrade.
I'd suggest combining mines/welders/grenades into 1 upgrade, then implementing Forlorn's idea of lvl 1 armour HA. This way not everyone will get welders, but the welder package will look attractive enough to ensure that a substantial portion of the team will have welders ready.
The easiest and most practical solution is to make HA avalible for 2 points right after armor 1, instead of armor 2.
I mean, what in hell is the sense of forcing HA marines to get armor 2 as HA if they don't want it, considering they are going to get a buttload of armor if they take HA, and allowing HA to come one level sooner gives it an advantage over JP.
Q.E.D. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
we have a winner.
I'd suggest combining mines/welders/grenades into 1 upgrade, then implementing Forlorn's idea of lvl 1 armour HA. This way not everyone will get welders, but the welder package will look attractive enough to ensure that a substantial portion of the team will have welders ready. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I think it'll encourage newbs to learn to weld each other even as a Light Marine. NEwbs can learn the power of the welder is brutal at all times, not just when the HA starts rolling out. If welders come with resupply, then focus will no longer be the overpowered trait it is in combat.
This would make focus counterable if the marines try to counter it fromt he beginning: Focus takes two points to get. Resupply and Welder is 1 + 1 for armor1.
People rushing HA won't be overpowered because HAs with level 0 LMGs suck. (Level 4 HA/lmg < Level 4 Fade)
And now, combat will finally come close to being balanced as marines can finally come close to end-game power (whereas aliens can still go above and beyong max power compared to Classic) because in theory, every marine could have enough points now to go Ha, HMG/GL, level 3 weapons, resupply+welder, motion tracking. If some marine stays with the shotgun, then they have one more slot. Possibly another armor upgrade, or catpacks.
Then, we might see some true heavy trains in combat.