Screenshot comments
KungFuSquirrel
Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">Such a thing as too much praise?</div>I feel something needs to be said on this subject. I've noticed a similar problem on other forums, and as times goes on it's becoming more and more prevalent here: Screenshot comments, in my opinion, are going overboard.
Now, before you say anything, let me go right ahead and say that I'm damn impressed with the quality of the work coming into this mod. There's some amazing mappers and some downright amazing maps. So what's the problem?
Not everything is amazing. In fact, even the absolute best shots can probably still be improved upon. Perhaps I'm just a different type of designer, but when I post screenshots (as you may have noticed), I want flaws pointed out; I want the damn things torn apart until I find a way to improve the scene depicted. The last thing I want to see is "Wow, that's incredible! That's the best thing I've seen in HL! Wait, it CAN'T be HL!" In fact, in my opinion, that's about the least productive thing that can be said. (Fortunately I don't have to worry about that too much in my shots, yay for that...)
I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm willing to bet that few to none of the people posting shots are posting shots to hear how amazing they are (and if you are... yeah, my views against arrogance in level design are anything but a secret). Shots are posted for a pair of reasons. 1) to show just what people are working on and (most importantly, in my opinion) 2) to find ways to improve the areas depicted.
Lately the "Wow, this is the best thing I've seen yet!" comment has become a bit too common for my liking, and there are posts where I (and others) are trying to make comments regarding what needs improvement, and those of us making said posts end up looking like ##### for not praising everything about the map and the designer himself.
Am I the only one bothered by this? If I am, I apologize for wasting your time, but I personally think that such comments cause more harm than good -- it becomes too easy to accept what is in place rather than trying to push the mapper's personal limitations (and even the HL limitations). I'm not saying it should be considered a crime to say that you like a screenshot, but no matter how good anything here may be, there's always room for improvement. Rather than just calling everything "incredible," let's try to find things that can be improved. There's already another mod I've vowed to avoid at all costs because everything IS 'incredible' according to them. I don't believe NS itself will get to that point, but the forums are really starting to sound that way.
Just because I made this post, I hope you all tear my shots apart that much more, just to try and annoy me. Then I'll really be able to get something done, heh... <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Now, before you say anything, let me go right ahead and say that I'm damn impressed with the quality of the work coming into this mod. There's some amazing mappers and some downright amazing maps. So what's the problem?
Not everything is amazing. In fact, even the absolute best shots can probably still be improved upon. Perhaps I'm just a different type of designer, but when I post screenshots (as you may have noticed), I want flaws pointed out; I want the damn things torn apart until I find a way to improve the scene depicted. The last thing I want to see is "Wow, that's incredible! That's the best thing I've seen in HL! Wait, it CAN'T be HL!" In fact, in my opinion, that's about the least productive thing that can be said. (Fortunately I don't have to worry about that too much in my shots, yay for that...)
I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm willing to bet that few to none of the people posting shots are posting shots to hear how amazing they are (and if you are... yeah, my views against arrogance in level design are anything but a secret). Shots are posted for a pair of reasons. 1) to show just what people are working on and (most importantly, in my opinion) 2) to find ways to improve the areas depicted.
Lately the "Wow, this is the best thing I've seen yet!" comment has become a bit too common for my liking, and there are posts where I (and others) are trying to make comments regarding what needs improvement, and those of us making said posts end up looking like ##### for not praising everything about the map and the designer himself.
Am I the only one bothered by this? If I am, I apologize for wasting your time, but I personally think that such comments cause more harm than good -- it becomes too easy to accept what is in place rather than trying to push the mapper's personal limitations (and even the HL limitations). I'm not saying it should be considered a crime to say that you like a screenshot, but no matter how good anything here may be, there's always room for improvement. Rather than just calling everything "incredible," let's try to find things that can be improved. There's already another mod I've vowed to avoid at all costs because everything IS 'incredible' according to them. I don't believe NS itself will get to that point, but the forums are really starting to sound that way.
Just because I made this post, I hope you all tear my shots apart that much more, just to try and annoy me. Then I'll really be able to get something done, heh... <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Seriously though, I point out flaws when I see them. I've had enough with mindless kowtowing praise. I got my fill of that crap when I was showing off my earliest work for the Opera, nothing but 'OMG! That rocks!' comments on the Opera map forum.
While I do hope that people will make constructive suggestions when they are able, not all people have that ability. To say that even the best work can be improved upon, while true to an extent, is an overgeneralization. Even if a piece can be improved upon, who is really qualified to say definitively what those improvements would be? It's a very fine line between legitimate technical suggestions and opinions founded on personal taste. If everyone who looked at a given screen shot, made their own suggested change, and the designer made every change suggested, I can guarantee you that you would have a worse piece than the one with which you started. Also, there have been many occasions where someone (myself included) really wanted to give feedback, but couldn't immediately think of any wothwhile improvements. In these cases, a little positive feedback is all that can be contributed.
There is equal value in encouragement. While very few people may be thick-skinned enough to take endless criticisms regarding their work, nearly everyone needs a boost in moral now and again, no matter how 'good' or 'bad' their piece is. Ego is not the issue here. It is about not being discouraged in your efforts because you feel like everyone else is tearing your work apart. When this happens, it tends to make most people feel inadequate, since for all appearances, everyone else knows better than the designer. It is just as bad, if not worse in some instances, to have nothing but negative criticism as having nothing but positive criticism. There should be a balance. It simply makes people feel better about what they are doing when others praise their work on occasion.
Essentially, what I am trying to get across is that I don't believe that open praise and critique need to be mutually exclusive. There is no reason why both can't be accepted as valid feedback to posted work.
<!--EDIT|Relic25|Mar. 18 2002,11:03-->
Can I just add that I don't see why someone shouldn't just post shots because they want praise - I do, because when I spend 20hours sitting infrount of my computer working out why my map looks wrong and what needs to be improved - all I see is flaws - it's depressing and I need some incouragement. Dont get me wrong I like what I do but sometimes it's not enough, I need to know others like it too.
I gotta work on getting my point across better... I always leave out something... <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo--> /me goes off to practice on his dog. Wait, I don't have a dog. Crap!
Unforunately there is now only a select few board members whose opinions really mean much to me at all. Most others have proven themselves utterly in the dark about what NS is all about and what is truly noteworthy in level design. Then again, maybe I'm the one whose head isn't screwed on right. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't doubt that.
I may be wrong, but all I know is this isn't quite like it was when I first came here.
Just to clarify, my recent constant rants in this forum are not aimed at any of the level designers or their maps. All the maps look great, regardless of whether I personally like them or not. It's aimed at the ones who are, in my opinion, giving completely misguiding feedback.
Or am I just imagining things? I'd really like to know if I'm the only one with these opinions...
I guess it doesn't matter. We'll see in the end.
<!--EDIT|ken20banks|Mar. 18 2002,11:43-->
You are right in saying that a comment like "w00t that looks r0x0r" or something like this does not really seem to be a helpful comment, still i feel that in some extend those posts make you feel good and motivate you to go on with mapping.
Unfortunately there are only ( exept a few ) posts that tell you either the good things or the bad things...
People that are impressed tell you that they are amazed, but maybe don't see the weak parts of your map in their euphoric ( is that an english word ? )mood.
Other people seem to be exactly the opposite. They more or less search the bad things and only tell you those.
To all of you ( again )
Critizism does not mean to critizise somebody, but to give him objective feedback and additional suggestions.
Of course you can give your personal opinion if you like the setting or not, but do not use your personal likes/dislikes in your argumentation.
(ie. "hey i don't like red, thus your level su*** ;-) )
Well I'm done ...
Yes, compliments are great for motivational issues and we would all be miserable without them. But doesn't anyone else see how some certain types of screenshots generate the overwhelming amounts of "Wow! That map r0x0rs! j00 are a mapping g0d!", while other equally impressive shots are all but overlooked?
It's the stuff that doesn't quite fit in with what the dev team wants NS to look like that people in this forum love so much. It has me wondering why I waste so much time in here...
You are right,
Most of the post could even be considered SPAM.
Well I also agree, that lots of stuff is overseen by many people, sadly. Also i think 2 or more screenshots do not show the quality of a map. Be commenting on those, you commecnt on the immage you see. I guess a single good looking hallway / room... does not make a good level.
I think everybody that seriously wants to comment on a screenshot / level, or something else, should at least write a complete sentence, not only a singe word.
( weird discussion .. everybody in here has the same opinion <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> )
There is a reason why the type of feedback is gradually changing (for better or worse). As the NS community grows and attracts the interest of more and more people, inevitably there will be more people joining and posting on these forums, and a great number of them will probably not be experienced mappers. These people will still peruse the mapping forum to see screenshots and new material, simply because they are interested. You can expect more posts from these members that are purely subjective in nature. It's not easy for someone who isn't very familiar with mapping to give good constructive, objective, and technical feedback (and even less easy for the mapper to accept such criticism).
I guess the best advice I could give about this whole issue is just to keep posting your work in hopes of getting at least some constructive feedback. Just do your best to filter out the rest. I fully sympathize with you on this issue, those of you who are frustrated because of the seeming lack of meaningful feedback. I think I posted some screens not too long ago, and it was quickly pushed out of the current list without much in the way of truly useful feedback (although there was a lot of encouraging remarks which made me feel better).
I think everyone's maps here are great, and they all have tremendous potential. I think us mappers just need to take what is said about them with a grain of salt. Enjoy the compliments from the non-designers, try to face the good contructive criticism from the fellow designers, and keep in mind that regardless of what is said on the forums it is up to you to decide where you are going, at what you are going to do with it.
*Freaky* how this turned out...
It's nice how you guys can put up with my insane ramblings sometimes.
I also find it quite amusing how similar Andrew and I think...
AAAH!!! *monty python voices* Run away! Run away! Aaugh!
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Anyways, I think that all the "w00t w00t" praise from the peanut gallery is a good thing. It lets the mapper know that the general public likes their work, and its the general public that'll be using their work (hopefully).
Of course, there's always room for improvement. Its always important to listen to the criticism, and as you've all said, that's the most important thing that we, as mappers, desire. Like Relic said earlier, you can't take everyone's suggestions. Luckily, there's usually only one or two different things that many people form a consensus on needing improvement. Bandwagon mentality or actual need for improvement, whatever, it doesn't matter. If someone points it out, it's something you should look into.
Just, yeah, you know.
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EDIT: btw that's a really amazing post KungFuSquirrel!! I wish i could post like that! It's the best post iv'e ever seen on the internet!!! Great job!! I wan't NS now hihi! Anyway, that's a GOOD post! I died when i read it!!!! !!! !
<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->