Is It Alright To Use The "n-word?"
The_Finch
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8498Members
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8498Members
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<div class="IPBDescription">When not used towards people?</div> Quaunaut's thread on racism reminded me of a conversation I had in my American Liturature class. We were discussing Harper Lee's <i>To Kill A Mockingbird</i> and the topic of racism inevitably came up. When one of the people in the class said that Bob Ewell called Tom Robinson the "n-word," the teacher stopped the class and we had a discussion on if it was appropriate to use the word **** in a context where it wasn't directed at a person.
The teacher's rationale behind it was that it wasn't directed at anybody and tip-toeing around the actual word diminished the power of the word and all that it carries with it.
I agreed with her. By reducing the word "****" to "the n-word," you trivialize it. It becomes just another naughty word that kids learn on the playground without understanding its history. Also, it wasn't being used to put somebody down. Nobody in the class was saying, "Hey, go pick some cotton you ****." It was being used in a discussion on the use of the word.
I was curious to know what other people think about it. Do you think that the word "****" should never be used or do you think that it's alright to use it when it's not directed at a person?
Note: I was apprehensive about making this topic. It's a sensitive subject and this topic runs the risk of getting derailed pretty easily and crashing right into rule 7. I also used "the word" a lot. I did this more out of consideration for people who might find it offensive, rather than I finding it offensive. I want to have a serious discussion about word usage in society and I thought that repeating a racial slur was unnecessary and probably counter-productive to discussion. The board also censors it, so it makes putting it in pointless.
The teacher's rationale behind it was that it wasn't directed at anybody and tip-toeing around the actual word diminished the power of the word and all that it carries with it.
I agreed with her. By reducing the word "****" to "the n-word," you trivialize it. It becomes just another naughty word that kids learn on the playground without understanding its history. Also, it wasn't being used to put somebody down. Nobody in the class was saying, "Hey, go pick some cotton you ****." It was being used in a discussion on the use of the word.
I was curious to know what other people think about it. Do you think that the word "****" should never be used or do you think that it's alright to use it when it's not directed at a person?
Note: I was apprehensive about making this topic. It's a sensitive subject and this topic runs the risk of getting derailed pretty easily and crashing right into rule 7. I also used "the word" a lot. I did this more out of consideration for people who might find it offensive, rather than I finding it offensive. I want to have a serious discussion about word usage in society and I thought that repeating a racial slur was unnecessary and probably counter-productive to discussion. The board also censors it, so it makes putting it in pointless.
Comments
when having an actual discussion either about racism or about things from that era, you can't just go around saying "The N Word".
It is sorta like the use of normal swaering when used in discusion of things (especialy litterature).
These words hold power, and if you are having a discussion on something where these words are important, you can't just waffle around them.
yah, inother words, I agree with you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That said, if I hear someone else using the abovementioned racist term, or a homosexually-related term in an insulting way, or something specifically insulting to women, or anything else similar, I'll make it a point to let them know I'm not going to take them seriously until they stop.
The word itself isn't intrinsically bad. It comes from the Latin 'niger' meaning 'black'; appearing in lots of places (River Niger, Nigeria etc). The n-word asyou put it, is simply a corruption of the word. It's the connotations that it has picked up that has made it such a bad word (similar to the '****' word). That wasn't and still isn't a bad word per se, but rather it inherit's it's badness from the effect it is designed to have.
"
Do you think that the word "****" should never be used or do you think that it's alright to use it when it's not directed at a person?
"
At the moment, it *shouldnt* be used directed at a person simply because society still treats it as a bad word, therefore it becomes a bad word. When people realise that is simply a corruption of a common adjective, and therefore posseses no intrinsic bad intentions, then it will become acceptable once more.
If it's *not* directed at a person then it's all up to the speaker whether it's an acceptable word or not. If the context implies hatred then it is clearly *NOT ACCEPTABLE*. But in a general term; as a slang word for describing the African race, then I see no problems.
/me two cents (pence?)
PS: In Physics 'negritude' is a measure of how dark something is
PSS: Arnold Swarzhniiger means 'Arnold Blackblack' in two different langauges
[COLOR=red] EDIT: Note to mods; no racial comments of any kind were implied here
Thats a racial term in itself.
N-word was derived to describe slaves in the field during slave times. Simple as that. the masters would call them the n-word while whipping them in the back.
Me being Half-Black it is very offensive and just plain upsetting when I hear the word. (N-Word)
Even if you use the word, in general or not directed at anyone, you get the feeling that the person is racist or has some kind of predjudice.
Thats all the word was used for.
You guys wouldnt like me going around saying Cracker even if it wasnt directed at you.
Try to be in someone else's shoes.
I believe you can say anything you want as long as it's not meant to upset anyone.
I didn't mean to come across like that. I was simply trying to state that the word was 'hijacked' so to speak by people to mean something bad. Unlike other swear words which were created with the specific purpose to shock and insult ( the four letter ones mainly), the N- word came to us via its latin roots ; where it was used in a very derogatory fashion. Indeed as you say:
'Even if you use the word, in general or not directed at anyone, you get the feeling that the person is racist or has some kind of predjudice.'
And I can understand your point; but I still get the feeling that in 200 years time or whatever, the word 'Niger' (note single N) will be 'reclaimed' so to speak and back in usage, MINUS the negative connotations. I know this is a very poor analogy, but similar to the campaign to 'reclaim' the word '****'.
/me hopes people understand where I am coming from
But my original posts explains my feelings about it.
No need to apologize, no heart feelings.
When people use it out of spite, I kind of feel sorry for the ignorance.
(Not saying this was anyone here)
Also, you get used to it living in the south.
I'm not much of an orator :-$ was worried someone would mis-interpret what I say
However, context is everything. The power of these words has spread into other phrases and the long arms of Political Correctness continue to grow. Here's an example:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Times Record Online Edition - Fort Smith, Arkansas
Posted: Monday, May 17, 2004
<b><a href='http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2004/May/17/opinion/brummett.html' target='_blank'>Words Help Define Realities Of Race </a></b>
More than 20 years ago a state employee in Arkansas got sanctioned for remarking in an open workplace that someone was “niggardly.”
An overhearing African-American co-worker filed a complaint. The relevant committee determined that the fellow shouldn’t have said it.
That set off a fiery discussion in the newsroom. This was a renowned liberal newspaper, by the way. It won a couple of Pulitzers for standing bravely against the evil forces of racism in the 1950s.
The prevailing shouts expressed outrage that a man could get in trouble for using a perfectly good word, one meaning “cheap” or “miserly.” These were writers. They were as devoted to words as racial sensitivity.
Then a fellow disagreed. He said “niggardly” sounded entirely too much like that other word and should have been avoided not only for that reason, but because the African-American co-worker might not have known that it was an actual word or what it meant.
Last week, the breadth of this lingering chasm between what white people say and black people hear, and vice versa, became evident three days consecutively in a federal courtroom in Little Rock.
We’ve come a commendable distance on race relations. We may, in fact, have come as far as possible considering that we don’t all speak the same English language.
This occurred at the trial of the fired African-American basketball coach at the University of Arkansas, Nolan Richardson. He alleges racial discrimination and a violation of free speech. It’s an odd and lamentable affair, generally frivolous but specifically revelatory.
First, the legendary 79-year-old athletic director, Frank Broyles, was forced into an admission on the witness stand. A few years ago he repeated in front of several people that a fan had asked a university board member for the difference between Richardson’s calling critics “redneck SOBs” and white people using the “n word.” But Broyles didn’t say “the n word.” He repeated the complaint verbatim, up to and including a full recitation of that word. He was quoting a loaded question, not hurling his own epithet. But he was obliged to say under oath that he deeply regretted it.
For the record: “Redneck SOB” does not connote 200 years of oppression.
The next day, a white board member of the university testified to the offense he took when Richardson referred to the university’s hometown, Fayetteville, as a place of “blue light specials.” Asked by the judge what he thought that meant, the board member said he was certain it had to do with police cars stopping blacks.
Richardson laughed out loud. He’d been talking about discount mass merchandising.
Then came the university chancellor, also white, who was confronted with this: He had said in a speech to state legislators a few months before that court-ordered public school reform was a “tar baby” that the state needed to get past before it could make advancements in higher education.
To most of the white people with whom I’ve talked, “tar baby” has to do with getting yourself stuck and being unable to extricate yourself. To most of the African-Americans I’ve talked with, “tar baby” is a racial slur.
Who’s right and who’s wrong? A Google search of “tar baby” goes both ways.
Actually, the words aren’t the real issue. The people and their attitudes are. People say we need a dialogue on race. But it looks like we’ve got plenty of that, maybe too much.
We need better understanding. With that, people might either bite their tongues or let dangerous words slide if they slip. That’s what good husbands and good wives do. So do good friends. They know and trust more about each other than what one or the other just messed up and said.
We’ll get there someday on race. It’ll have to be after this trial, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wondering Spooge whether you find the word 'Negritude' similar? It's a term used in Physics to describe the luminoisity of something (how bright it is).
I don't agree with the treatment people are getting for using words like "niggardly" which have completely acceptable definitions. The derogatory context of this word would be little more than saying someone holds their wallet too tight. The point of the article is that there is an over-sensitivity hanging around that needs to be confronted and resolved openly rather than trying to shove these words under the rug.
Sorta similar to the point I was trying to make several posts down (except phrased better IMHO..)
That's pretty much what I was going for. Pretending that the words and problems don't exist won't solve anything. However, we're currently implimenting the "under the rug" option and I think that is dangerous. Not just for race relations, but for the English language as well.
I'm not advocating that everybody start skipping up and down the streets shouting it at the top of their lungs. You can't simply use it in a non-negative way. It has a negative connotation now, regardless of if we like it or not. Like how political parties will accuse each other of using propaganda. It's meant to be derogatory, even if they're disseminating information too. It's not simply a slang word. "Black" is slang to describe people of African ancestry. N****r is meant to be insulting.
Sensitivity about words and their racial connotations isn't limited to the "n-word," but it is the "grandaddy" of the slurs, so I singled it out.
Used by white trash (NRA/KKK, other supremecists): Absolutely unacceptable.
Used by hispanics: Depends on how it is used.
It's a slang word I hear a lot since most of my friends are black/hispanic, and they don't really care when I use it because they know I'm not racist. Of course, I don't go around screaming it in the middle of the street but using the word where I'm from is almost the same as saying "You're my friend." Unbelievable, huh?
This is very complicated.
Yes its ok for my black friends to say it to me, and not the white ones. Its like someone trying to come into the crew and trying to act like your friend.
Nigg-a is like "dawg" "or even pal"
You have to know the culture to know the word.
For example, I have a non-black friend (dont know what he is <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) and we call him nigg-a sometimes, and he says it around us.
But if he went into another circle of guys (black) and said it, he would probably get beat down.
Its an unwrittten code, and its not confusing if your involved in it.
I find it rather humorous that my white, protestant parents are more offended by the word "****" than any of my black friends.
Bigbull, I know all about that unwritten code, but is it worth being offended by a WORD. You are better than what that word says about you, so take that knowledge and don't let the word matter. The word is a representation of a past ideal that has been proved false. Therefore, there are only two things that can now happen: the word must be removed, or the word must be altered. I'm in favor of alteration of the definition.
I don't even understand the concept of racism. It's so illogical and self defeating to believe that skin tone somehow has anythign to do with genetic superiority.
I've seen both types of usage; I recently moved from Brooklyn. There, it was more of a greeting, but where I am now (in the middle of nowhere, a.k.a. upstate New York) there are a bunch of whites living in suburbia who use it in an insulting way. It pisses me off whenever I hear it, and since almost everyone here is like that my only friends are Italian. For some reason.
It all falls down to courtesy, smartness, awareness, and just knowing your boundries.
Freedom of Speech is ok, but people are allowed to be offended by the free speech you speak of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My only concern is that why do most people (white) want to have thier right to say it granted?
Do you really want to say somehting so that you can fit in?
Ive never gotten ahold of that mystery.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->My question still stands on that quote (from me:P).
Why are people so curious? Wanting to be politically correct?
Why so much hooplah for one word.
Why so much hooplah for one word.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not just one word, nor is it only about fitting in. I came to terms with the fact that I'm not an urban, black man a long time ago. It's mostly about two things.
1. Being forced to worry about every word I speak, lest I offend somebody.
2. A select group of people determining what language is and isn't acceptable.
In the initial case I described, the fear of being politically incorrect was so great that it inhibited the ability of the class to have a discussion about the book. Part of the problem is also the blatant double standards that are applied to language. There have been cases where people have objected to using "master/slave" terminology to refer to computers and lawsuits when stewardesses have used a nursery rhyme to address passengers.
When most whites talk about the double standard and limited access to words, it's mostly because they don't want to walk on eggshells whenever there's a minority around.
So no, I think it's very much <span style='color:red'><b>not</b></span> alright.
Futhermore the KKK is as much a terrorist organization as Al Quieda as far as I'm concerned. It's a shame we hold a double standard on terrorism. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This n-word is a derragatory insulting term for blacks. It's perhaps the worst cuss word I can think of off the top of my head. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the general, undeveloped opinion that most Americans seem to share. Pay specific attention to the description of this word, and then consider the use of the word among blacks themselves <span style='font-family:Courier'>(n*gger = n*gga, as far as I'm concerned, because the latter had to originate from the former)</span>. The irony in this is that, while n*gga/n*gger is customarily accepted as an (albeilt crude) greeting among Black communities, the word is found to be extraordinarily offensive when uttered by a non-member of the African American race. When compared with similar words applied in a derogative member to its respective race, the words chink, jap, spic, or gook, don't seem to incite this same insurmountable anger and offense. To add upon this, these same words don't seem to have attained the same secondary, friendly meaning among their respective communities as "n*gger" has achieved among the Black community (although that itself is due in large part to the advent of Gangsta Rap).
How is it that similar derogative terms do not evoke similarily heightened responses? One could argue that "n*gger" simply has a much more negative historic background, and that the word is far more widespread then other terms of the same degree, and he would be right, but when all is considered, and all the terms faced, the power of the word is derived from noneother then the people who would take offense at it. The greatest despot of hate can only be those who allow themselves to be emotionally affected by it.
The black people are not alone in its monopoly on the offensiveness of the term "****," but along with them are those white, and black, members of the community that would seek to censor, to forget, and to nullify "n*gger" from our media, while failing to acknowledge the centuries of suffering, hatred, and enslavement the word had originally symbolized. Instead, they seek to take offense, when they could've considered, to erase, when they could've preserved, and to forget, when they could've remembered. It is not our duty to shelter the black community from the offense of the word, but to help remember, and acknowledge the centuries of wrongdoing we are all guilty of upon our fellow human beings.
*ahem*
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This n-word is a derragatory insulting term for blacks. It's perhaps the worst cuss word I can think of off the top of my head. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the general, undeveloped opinion that most Americans seem to share. Pay specific attention to the description of this word, and then consider the use of the word among blacks themselves <span style='font-family:Courier'>(n*gger = n*gga, as far as I'm concerned, because the latter had to originate from the former)</span>. The irony in this is that, while n*gga/n*gger is customarily accepted as an (albeilt crude) greeting among Black communities, the word is found to be extraordinarily offensive when uttered by a non-member of the African American race. When compared with similar words applied in a derogative member to its respective race, the words chink, jap, spic, or gook, don't seem to incite this same insurmountable anger and offense. To add upon this, these same words don't seem to have attained the same secondary, friendly meaning among their respective communities as "n*gger" has achieved among the Black community (although that itself is due in large part to the advent of Gangsta Rap).
How is it that similar derogative terms do not evoke similarily heightened responses? One could argue that "n*gger" simply has a much more negative historic background, and that the word is far more widespread then other terms of the same degree, and he would be right, but when all is considered, and all the terms faced, the power of the word is derived from noneother then the people who would take offense at it. The greatest despot of hate can only be those who allow themselves to be emotionally affected by it.
The black people are not alone in its monopoly on the offensiveness of the term "****," but along with them are those white, and black, members of the community that would seek to censor, to forget, and to nullify "n*gger" from our media, while failing to acknowledge the centuries of suffering, hatred, and enslavement the word had originally symbolized. Instead, they seek to take offense, when they could've considered, to erase, when they could've preserved, and to forget, when they could've remembered. It is not our duty to shelter the black community from the offense of the word, but to help remember, and acknowledge the centuries of wrongdoing we are all guilty of upon our fellow human beings.
*ahem* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
camO.o, for once I actually agree with you on something. You summed up my thoughts quite nicely with that post.
So no, I think it's very much <span style='color:red'><b>not</b></span> alright.
Futhermore the KKK is as much a terrorist organization as Al Quieda as far as I'm concerned. It's a shame we hold a double standard on terrorism. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really think you need your Threadnecronomicon taken away until you can create less simplistic answers (and maybe to stop you from resurrect every thread you see...which might have something to do with the unthought out answers...).
The KKK is a terrorist organization now? When's the last time you saw some guys running around in ghost costumes burning crosses and blowing up churches short of the 70s? No more than any racist person not part of the KKK.
<span style='font-size:3pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:orange'>[UltimaGecko neither advocates or suggests you advocate the KKK and suggests you hate people on a person by person basis, like him.]</span></span>
Now, if someone wants to hold a grudge based on a word used 300 years ago with no real bearing in my life, I don't really care. I can see how they can find it derogatory (...except the whole...calling eachother **** in the case of blacks). If you still hold a grudge against whites (No, I demand you call me Caucasian, despite me never seeing the Caucus mountains, let alone coming from the Aryan civilizations that disrupted Indus Valley civilizations...). It's the same thing with African-American.
I mean, what the heck? Black...African-American. ...It's simple efficiency. And what does African-American get you? Do you want to call all whites European-Americans? I don't think so, and we don't expect you to.
Sure, there's the whole slavery thing, which is years and years of oppression and beyond poor treatment, but if you harbor feelings of racism forever you've got lots of hating to do. You could still hold it against whites if you wanted to...and for some reason my LA10 teacher decided that, despite me having no relation to anyone in America before 1870 (hello, Norway...), it was whites fault that blacks were treated bad and that they should be held responsible for generations upon generations...
[that from a teacher who was white...so...don't ask me what that was about]
The only problem I see with this trouble is people forgetting history. Considering it will still be an important part of black history for their entire livelihood, I don't think that'll be a problem.
Now, I don't use the word **** in day to day speech for various reasons. 1: I rarely swear with the major F, S and C words. 2: The word is ugly. It just doesn't look nice. In spanish with Negro (which it's derived from), Negro at least sonds decent. 3: Black is more efficient than **** (or Negro...or African-American-dude-from-the-congo's-great-great-great-grandson) by a syllable. 4: Few blacks exist in the area, and there's more productive ways to refer to them. 5: The word is associate far to much with rap and rap just annoys me...as does Nigga as a greeting. Similarily with Cracka.
Now, sure, you've got nigga/****. And I can understand why people get upset about it...but if you even try to insult white people it just...doesn't work.
Cracker = comedy gold.
Snowball = comedy platinum
Whitey = ...okay...so?
Maybe we should break out Cauc-ey as an insult...
But see, my point involves the fact that I see "nigga" being used only among blacks as a seperation thing. Most of us "white people" simply desire equality, fairness, etc, and things like "nigga" are like a seperation thing, as though blacks need to make their skin color a matter of importance. I believe that this is largely due to the very negative and long lasting effects of being a victim of slavery and racism. The problem I see is that nowadays, these problems simply don't exist anymore. Most people won't make an issue out of skin color unless it is being forced.
So, my opinion is that I am using "nigga" as a term of endearment for all friends of mine, regardless of skin color, in order to take away the seperation the word implies. After all, if it is a positive greeting, why does it have to be just for blacks?
I'm not saying that everyone should just go out and call black people whatever they feel like, I'm just saying that it annoys me to no end that people are so willing to just conveniantly forget recent history because it serves them better.