If The Sun Went Dark, How Long Could We Survive?
Mantrid
Lockpick Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24109Members
Lockpick Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24109Members
in Discussions
If the sun suddenly stopped producing energy, and became a dark ball of matter with the exact same volume and mass it is currently, how long do you think humanity could survive? How would we milk what energy was left? Where would we live?
Assume that space travel to another solar system is not a viable option.
I assume that geothermal power would become very important. Anything that could be used to fuel fire would be. Chances are, humanity would have to try and get closer to the mantle, for heat, as the atmosphere itself would probably begin to freeze.
Another (at least temporary) option is to start a global firestorm, which would heat the atmosphere, and hopefully put enough greenhouse gases into the air to slow heat loss.
Assume that space travel to another solar system is not a viable option.
I assume that geothermal power would become very important. Anything that could be used to fuel fire would be. Chances are, humanity would have to try and get closer to the mantle, for heat, as the atmosphere itself would probably begin to freeze.
Another (at least temporary) option is to start a global firestorm, which would heat the atmosphere, and hopefully put enough greenhouse gases into the air to slow heat loss.
Comments
Sun = Energy
Plants + Energy = Oxygen
Take the sun out of that equation and we all die very shortly.
However as said above, we'll all be burnt up in a instant long before we have to worry about the sun going dark.
Sun = Energy
Plants + Energy = Oxygen
Take the sun out of that equation and we all die very shortly.
However as said above, we'll all be burnt up in a instant long before we have to worry about the sun going dark. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And statistically an asteroid impact will wipe all of us out long before that.
I think we could live a bit longer than a few days. There is quiet a bit of energy stored in the planet. Nuclear power could yield quite a bit of energy. And, should that last long enough for even a small group of people to be left alive for enough time to develop fusion.
And, if we developed fusion, we have a pretty good chance of living without the sun's energy. Artificial lighting would let us grow plants, which solves the food problem.
At that point, we could survive as long as we can extract hydrogen from the earth, and with an enormous (albeit frozen) ocean at our disposal, that could be quite a while.
forget about a nova. that can only happen in a binary system.
if the sun just completely and suddenly stopped working...we'd die very quickly, I'm sure.
edit: if you want to read a good scifi book about stars getting messed up read <u>Ring</u> by Stephen Baxter <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Lack of energy from the sun would also vastly alter weather across the planet due to the sudden absence of solar wind.
The planet would also, as pointed out, quickly freeze.
Would anything survive? The ecosystems surrounding hot springs and deep-water geothermal vents are the only things that leap immediately to mind. The lowest member of the food chain in those ecosystems is not a plant, but a methanobacterium (I think that's what they're called) that processes methane from the hot spring to produce energy. No dependence on light/solar heat = survival.
How would humans fare? Not well. A very large proportion would probably die quickly. The remaining population would slowly waste away, IMO. Whether starvation or depression would claim them first, I can't say.
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I was thinking about those too, but not in relation to the earth, the first thing that leapt to mind was that maybe on other planets too far from the sun to support life, creatures like these really thrive under frozen oceans.
However, I doubt any of man kind would survive if we had no warning, we just wouldn't be prepared and the stuff we would need to make to survive would take far too long to develop. That and the largest (known) self sufficient bunker can only go 6 months without being supplied, and that's for the US Congress, the future of the human race indeed. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There would be a surviving elite of course , but depression would affect them. They couldn't survive forever also , unless they master nuclear fusion maybe.
It's possible that some might survive by sealing themselves within mineshafts but maintaining a breathable atmosphere within a cavern system with the knowledge/equipment available to ordinary people would be difficult if not impossible. I'd suspect that only a few, very isolated, very meagre, and extremely well organised groups would even survive past one month without solar energy.
This presumes that the right people are in the right place at the right time and react with the right decisions as new problems arise. In all likelihood it's probable that only two, perhaps three isolated pockets of humanity would survive in the long term.
In the long term (1000 - 5,000 years), provided that these pockets can maintain a stable society, there will probably be an energy crisis provided that each culture maintains a sembelence of technology.
In the very long term (5000 - 50,000 years), the crust/mantle will probably reach capacity for population (once again, provided a stable society with the technology to support such).
Any society beyond 50K years will probably become extinct due to heat death. The earth has a lot of energy but it still is limited. Interstellar travel would have to be a long term goal after a period of recovery, consolidation and development (or redevelopment if a dark age were to occur).
This also presumes that the survivors have enough people to make things such as in breeding and a limited gene pool less of a problem (minimum 500 required).
If we were prepared, or if it were a gradual process, then we will probably be far better off. It is ultimately a very positive look at a very grim situation. It will, in all likelihood be far worse if it were a reality.
Given this, keep in mind that civilizations are usually only destroyed by threats to which it cannot bring the resources and manpower inherent to said civilization to bear against said threat.
Or, in much simpler terms...
Sudden threat: Civilization gets pwnt
Gradual threat: Civilization pwns
besides, people survive in the antartic ... i'm sure without the sun we could still survive the cold
Between 8 minutes 10.7 seconds and 8 minutes 27.3 seconds, depending on what time of the year it happened.
Between 8 minutes 10.7 seconds and 8 minutes 27.3 seconds, depending on what time of the year it happened. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, the earth wouldn't suddenly become a ball of ice as soon as the sun went out. It would happen quickly, but its still restricted by the poor thermal conductivity of gases in the atmosphere.
Between 8 minutes 10.7 seconds and 8 minutes 27.3 seconds, depending on what time of the year it happened. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much it. Mars is (in astronomical terms) only a short hop from the Earth, and it's frightfully cold there. Maximum temperature on the surface is around 290 Kelvin, which translates to habitable, and minimum is 133 Kelvin, which translates to "not even divine intervention can stop you from freezing in a minute" cold. In comparison, Pluto's minimum surface temperature is 33 Kelvin, which is (for those not familiar with the scale) exactly 33 celsius above the "absolute zero" point where molecular motion stops.
Even Pluto and Mars get some heat from the sun, so imagine if the heat from sun ceased to exist. We could survive just about the time it takes for the last rays of light to travel to earth, and then it's go time. After that kind of temperature shift, the idea of heat shift becomes negligible, and it will get cold quicker than you can say "dig up the winter gear". The amount of geothermal energy available has nothing on the cold front that arrives, and humanity will be wiped out very promptly in a freeze burn holocaust. Cue the rest of the universe dancing around in a victory jig as a major source of pollution becomes nothing but bedtime stories to scare the little ones.
No survivors. End of story. Begin evolution in another solar system.
For those suggesting survival scenarios, remember that during the Permian mass extinction around 250 million years ago - give or take a few - 95% of marine species and majority of land species were wiped out. One theory suggests massive volcanic eruptions and a possible asteroid impact, which caused a dust cloud to cover the atmosphere and reduce available sunlight to minimum. If that caused an overal extinction of over 90% of all species, imagine what would occur if sunlight just suddenly, without a transition period, just went to nil. Even with a ten year transition period, the result would be a total disaster in the long term. The availability of abundant energy sources on a planet that would be basically nothing but a big snowball is not very likely. Because I know next to nothing about plate tectonics, I can't in any way predict what would happen to the land masses if they were surrounded by seas that are nothing but ice. I'd expect massive tectonic upheavals during the ice-over period. Expect collapse of mountain ranges and richter 10 quakes.
For example, if one creature exclusively eats plants which needs solar energy to live, while the other drinks exclusively from chemical pools, and the sun goes out on that world like this situation says, which one do you think will live and which one will die? Obviously, anything dependant on solar energy will die out completely, while the chemical-eating creatures will thrive; provided there is enough chemicals for everyone.
I suppose living in the core of a PLANET-SIZE ICE CUBE won't really bother them. Not at all.
On a more serious note, a radical ecological shift like that would affect just about every known form of life, be they humans or lithovores. While it is known that organisms with relatively simple biology (such as fish) may survive being frozen, nothing is likely to survive at temperatures below 50 Kelvin.
I suppose living in the core of a PLANET-SIZE ICE CUBE won't really bother them. Not at all.
On a more serious note, a radical ecological shift like that would affect just about every known form of life, be they humans or lithovores. While it is known that organisms with relatively simple biology (such as fish) may survive being frozen, nothing is likely to survive at temperatures below 50 Kelvin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thermal vents at the bottom of the ocean are hot enough to melt steel.
I'm quite sure a decent area around there would remain nice and toasty warm.
Also, please note that when you go <b>that</b> far down into the ocean it really is as if the sun never existed anyways, because all those billions of photons have been scattered by the upper layers of particles. Due to this, most creatures have either very very very sensitive eye sight (with eyes the size of dinner plates) or no sight at all. THAT is how much light gets down to the bottom of the ocean.
As well, ice can only extend <i>so</i> far down from the surface of the ocean. In the dead of winter a deep lake doesn't freeze completely. There's usually a small area which remains unfrozen, though chilled. Same with the oceans, except many multiple times larger. Exact same situation with one of Jupiter's moons, Io. Completely covered in ice with a very thick sheet of ice, but even then there's evidence (cracks and fissures) that there could be liquid under that giant ice block.
One problem is this: to move underground and build such a habitat would take <b>time</b> to dig/construct. By the time we construct this habitat, we would most likely all be dead. Also, it would take time to gather manpower and resources, which would be difficult considering Earth is basically going to hell and there is mass panic/chaos/confusion.
If the sun were to go out, the human race would be thrown into a state of anarchy and chaos. The government would be done away with and gangs would run civilization. This is all politics of course, so I'm not going to detail that much about it.
Animals. We forget that animals are a main source of protein. When the sun goes out, all the animals will die becasue they have no technology/habitats to protect them. Since the Earth would be plunged into an extreme ice age, one might be able to think that some animals with fur (e.g. Polar Bears) would be able to survive and breed, giving us food.
Basically, it comes down to this: if the sun goes out, we are all screwed.
the first 12 hours of darkness won't be bad. Lots of panicked people, perhaps, but on average not too bad, just like a chilly night. On the side of the earth that's already dark, people won't pick up on it immediately.
12 hours to 2 days, massive rioting in major urban centers, supermarkets run out of food. Temperatures in inland areas drop to freezing.
1 week - Canadians screwed. Inland areas covered in a light layer of snow from rapidly cooling clouds dumping their moisture, majority of macroscopic wildlife is dead or dying from hypothermia or excessive cold exposure. Areas near large bodies of water begin to cool. People in undeveloped countries begin falling ill and dying.
1-2 weeks - Major weather patterns collapse from lack of energy. Precipitation stops, wind is scarce, and mostly limited to convection patterns over the oceans. People at the equator experience their first night of freezing temperatures. Small streams and ponds freeze over.
1 month - Glaciers begin forming or expanding in the arctic and antarctic circles. Almost all fresh water sources freeze over. Areas near large bodies of water fall below freezing. Living in anything but a large city becomes almost impossible.
6 months - fresh water becomes scarce, even if drilled for. the surface of the ocean cools significantly. Landlocked areas are covered in thick permafrost. Almost all cities are frozen over. Underground facilities are still livable, but are running short of supplies.
1 year - someone turns on the lights, walks over to his ant farm, and says, "who the crap left my doomsday simulator running overnight?"
truth is pluto is 33 kelvin with the sun, we'll be about 15~20? kelvin without it. That is very much instant death. we wont live beyond 10 minutes garuenteed, the earths core will freeze very quickly so dont go on about geothermal power. Earth will very very quickly become just a big ugly frozen asteroid.
Hardly.
Earth has masses of iron at it's core, which is continually swirling around in liquid form. How? Gravity.
NOT the sun, GRAVITY.
Because the core is still moving, there's still movement of the tectonic plates, which means that geothermal power is still a good option.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK! <_<
Hardly.
Earth has masses of iron at it's core, which is continually swirling around in liquid form. How? Gravity.
NOT the sun, GRAVITY.
Because the core is still moving, there's still movement of the tectonic plates, which means that geothermal power is still a good option.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK! <_< <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
50$ says we can't find a good way to use that to our advantage without being given at least a good couple monthes to plan for it in advance...
Rest assured it wouldn't be too much longer than a couple weeks before the entire surface of the earth was compleatly frozen over several km deep.
FYI the entire ocean would freeze to its entire depth to dispute claims made otherwize. The moon of saturn that was referred to has water coverage probably about 1000 times as deep as earths oceans, and I would argue that without some sort of sun heating, even that probably would eventually freeze compleatly.
Also, there would be very little rioting in the pitch black, and I really doubt there would be too much activity out side of the highest levels of organized civilization. It wouldn't be too long before the atmosphere just froze solid altogether and the only people alive would be people left in heated and self substained pockets below the surface. Realisticly, it would be too dark for gang activity, and after about a day, it would also be way too cold.
Yes, our entire atmosphere will indeed come raining down. Hydrogen takes a little while longer to become liquid, but seeing that the estimated temperature of vacuum (as in interplanetary void) is around 3 kelvin, it'll be falling down right after oxygen.
{Self Nuked}
The earth will not freeze over INSTANTLY. Not within 8 minutes and certainly not within 20.
Reasons for this:
1. The earth has a lot of thermal energy bottled up in the oceans and the atmosphere.
2. The earth radiates a fixed amount of energy into space at a fixed rate.
3. It takes TIME for the earth to radiate this energy.
Given these three things, use your god damned brains and think instead of saying the first thing that comes through your six inch thick skulls.
The atmosphere loses it's heat first, but the oceans begin bleeding out their thermal energy as well due to thermodynamics.
Now, lets do a bit of playing with numbers.
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The mass of the oceans is approximately 1.35 quintillion (1.35 × 10^18) metric tons, or about 1/4400 of the total mass of the earth. This is 0.04 % of the earth's mass.
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Taken from <a href='http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov99/943288749.Es.r.html' target='_blank'>Here</a>
Now, we're talking a change in temperature from an average of 20 degrees celsius to about -200 very approximately...
Now, Q = C*M*DELTA T
Or...
Heat Added/Removed = Specific heat multiplied by the Mass of the substance, multiplied by the change in temperature.
Using further brains, it takes 4.186 joules of energy to change the temperature of water by a single degree.
4.186 * 1000 = 4186 joules of energy required to raise 1 kg of water by 1 degree celsius.
4186 * 1.35 × 10^18 * 20
That is, 4186 joules of energy to change the temperature of water by a single degree, multiplied by the mass of all the liquid water on the earth, mutliplied further by a change of 20 degrees to the point at which it will freeze and thus change it's specific heat.
This change alone derives a change of: 1130220000000000000000000 Joules
Or, if you want the number to make a little more sense...
1130220000000000000000 Megajoules
1130220000000000000 Gigajoules
1130220000000000 Terajoules
1130220000000 Petajoules
To put it in perspective, annihilating one kilogram of uranium into energy, completely, with no inefficiency involved and no matter/energy lost etc...
E = MC^2
E = 1 * 300,000^2
E = 90000000000 Joules
90000000 Megajoules
90000 Gigajoules
90 Terajoules
To gain the equivalent amount of energy from a perfect nuclear reaction which involves transmuting all the mass present in a given amount of substance...
E = 1130220000000000000000000
C^2 = 90000000000
M = E / C^2
M = 12558000000000 Kilograms of substance to be annihilated into energy.
To put that further into perspective, that outmodes the entire energy production of mankind thousands of times over quite easily.
As I said earlier, the sea has ASSLOADS of energy bottled up.
I cant find any figures on how long it would take for the earths oceans to radiate out all that energy but it will certainly take FAR longer then the mere minutes in which some grossly misinformed people have been stating.
The earths core is heated by virtue of a rather large lump of uranium in the core. Because this lump is rather large, the sustained naturally occuring nuclear reaction that takes place heats the core and the surrounding mantle, and by virtue of sheer mass, it would take a good deal of time to fizzle out.
The core stays hot for at least another billion years.
Google + Physics + Mass of the earths oceans + their stored energy = WIN!