About The Number Of Turrets
Ravlin
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8197Members
<div class="IPBDescription">they have too many turrets</div> Those <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> beasts are really bad (if you are an alien) but the real problem is when there is in the marine base some 20 to 30 of them (I have seen a base with 25 turrets). Then the life of
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> is about 3 seconds (I couldn' destroy even one of them before I've died).
My idea is: limit the number of turrets one Turret factory (TF) can build. Perhaps 10 or 15 turrets for each TF. Also in the radius of one TF is not possible to build another TF (because they will interfere with each other).
The unlimited ammo of turrets: what if they would have some virtual ammo. When they fire out all ammo, they would automatically use some of the resources and buy another ammo. This could be also used instead of limiting their number. When there would be too many of them, they would use more resources then tha marines gain. And without buying new ammo the turrets will be useless. The automatic buying and reloading should be instant. This could be also used for siege turrets, but their ammo would cost much more.
This will force the marines to think how much of turrets to buy and where to place them.
Whit those 20 turrets, marine base is almost fully automatic and with one marine with grenade launcher defending the base it is almost impossible to conquer it (when playing 4v4 - maximum number of aliens is 4 so no big attacks).
What I'm trying to do is balance this thing:
when marines attack a defended hive they can destroy the defense before any aliens can retreat (in most cases). When aliens attack the marine base, they can destroy perheps half the defense before marines retreat do defend it (even when they are using heavy armor).
When we played, the game is relly good balanced in fighting each other. But when we pushed all marines to their starting base, they were too much diged in. With those 25 turrets, we didn't now what to do. We were using lerks and fades together, but when we made an assault they just used grenade launcher. So we retreated, healed and were trying it again. And so it repeated for some time (we didn'y finished the game due some technicall problem - server went down). With some limiting the turrets, situations like this shouldn't be so often.
Write your opinion to this ideas and what is your experience with too many turrets.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> is about 3 seconds (I couldn' destroy even one of them before I've died).
My idea is: limit the number of turrets one Turret factory (TF) can build. Perhaps 10 or 15 turrets for each TF. Also in the radius of one TF is not possible to build another TF (because they will interfere with each other).
The unlimited ammo of turrets: what if they would have some virtual ammo. When they fire out all ammo, they would automatically use some of the resources and buy another ammo. This could be also used instead of limiting their number. When there would be too many of them, they would use more resources then tha marines gain. And without buying new ammo the turrets will be useless. The automatic buying and reloading should be instant. This could be also used for siege turrets, but their ammo would cost much more.
This will force the marines to think how much of turrets to buy and where to place them.
Whit those 20 turrets, marine base is almost fully automatic and with one marine with grenade launcher defending the base it is almost impossible to conquer it (when playing 4v4 - maximum number of aliens is 4 so no big attacks).
What I'm trying to do is balance this thing:
when marines attack a defended hive they can destroy the defense before any aliens can retreat (in most cases). When aliens attack the marine base, they can destroy perheps half the defense before marines retreat do defend it (even when they are using heavy armor).
When we played, the game is relly good balanced in fighting each other. But when we pushed all marines to their starting base, they were too much diged in. With those 25 turrets, we didn't now what to do. We were using lerks and fades together, but when we made an assault they just used grenade launcher. So we retreated, healed and were trying it again. And so it repeated for some time (we didn'y finished the game due some technicall problem - server went down). With some limiting the turrets, situations like this shouldn't be so often.
Write your opinion to this ideas and what is your experience with too many turrets.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
This will force the marines to think how much of turrets to buy and where to place them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea. I hate turret spamming. Well you can do it as alien to but hen the damn marines just build a few siege turrets and they're gone. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> If the turrets would use resource to buy ammo or something like that it would be great. If you got lot's of outposts as marine then you are able to build more turrets. This would make the marines dependent on captureing more resource nozzels. And maybe a turret factory is able to support 5-10 turrets in it's range and a adv. turret factory about 10-15. Of course would the siege turret take maybe like 2 or 3 of the factorys turret support.
Yesterday we played an 8 hour game, yes 8 hours, and we just couldn't take the marine base. We were playing on eclipse. The marines setup an obscene number of turrets inside their base, siege turrets (which are just bs in my mind), and all were in heavy armour and hmg/nades. So 8 of us would rush in with Onos and Fades to get cut down in like 5-8 secs, ALL OF US mind you, and we hardly damaged anything. Eventually all the aliens left because it was pointless. We had all three hives but couldn't end the level cuz the marines had too much stuff.
About the siege turret? When do the aliens get a gun like this??? The marines can setup a turret factory ANYWHERe and blow up a hive from like 1/3 of the way across the screen and we can do NOTHING about it. I mean NOTHING. The marines setup 10-15 turrets around the siege and just leave it. It got real frustrating real fast. I can't keep people on the server to play aliens. Well I'll rant more later. I love the mod just isn't balanced. I actually went back to 1.0 so that I could change the skill.cfg and balance out the game more.
Also, remember, you have structures that heal your offensive turrets automatically, marines don't, they have to repair them manually. this takes time and rp to give everyone welders. Defenses can be weakened over time with constant pressure, meaning, nto sending all 8 in at one time, but by making it so there's always someone rushing through the door, making it impossible for marines to repair and heal stuff.
And if marines have enough rp to build that many turrets in the main base, you haven't done your job as an alien. You let marines grab too many resource points on the map, and well, that's where the stalemate comes from. I've seen commanders have over 600 excess rp cuz they cut off the aliens quick and took all the resource towers. Aliens can do this as well, and even after spending 76 to upgrade your onos, in a matter of seconds, you can be full again. Just think of what you could build as a gorge... MANY towers everywhere. And they are problems for marines, believe me...
You didn't do your job, and marines did their's.
(also, I always laugh when aliens start getting slaughtered and are about to be eliminated, the alien players quit the server and it ends up as 8on2 when the map ends, cuz they can stand losing, but marines tend to stick it out. Looks like all the recent marine wins are severely crushign the alien's egos. GJ!)
and since alien turrets have unlimited ammo, why shouldnt marines? it would be unfair to restrict them so badly. i do agree with the seige turrets though. those should be restricted to like 3 per factory WITH a limited amount of ammo. yesterday my team had 7 siege cannons in our base and 3 more outside it in an outpost. not to mention about 2 or 3 in every other outpost.
i do agree that something should be added to counteract the siege cannons, but NOT an alien siege cannon. how about a more advanced defense chamber? you can only build it with 3 hives and it heals two times? three times as much as the regular def chambers? and it has much more health. this would keep out offense walls alive vs 1 siege cannon, maybe 2, and you could limit the number built in 1 spot to like 2 or 3 and they dont count as regular def chambers so they can be built seperately from them.
in the aspects of balancing the game you guys REALLY need to see that its fairly balanced already and just some minor tweaking needs to be had. think about it. aliens have a much wider variety of weapons, MUCH wider, and often make very strong solo acts throughout the entire game as you evolve. you can become faster, whereas the marines get slower. you can cloak, can the marines? no. can they parasite you earlier in the game to see you? no. they need to wait for later for the sensor thing (forgot the name). can they crawl in various air ducts and such in every map to get to places quicker and easier? no. all in all its almost completely fair, and it would be with, like i said, some minor tweaking.
but yeah... the game is pretty much balanced. leave the turrets alone.
Sounds like your uberonos and uberfades forgot to invite the uberlerks. Umbra does wonders as a shield from bullets. Just teach the lerks to dodge the grenades, zip in, umbra, zip out.
A wall of off chambers backed up by 4 or 6 def chambers laughs at siege cannons. Just build the def chambers back a bit from the off chambers, out of blast range, in heal range.
Most complaints about the poor little aliens stems from a lack of team work. Try it sometime, nothing like a fade and a lerk and 3 off chambers backed by two def chambers, standing toe to toe with 4 heavy armored marines with HMGs, taking all 4 out with no loses.
And ya, I normally play aliens, love that <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for siege cannons, frankly I think the advanced defence chamber idea is pretty silly. It seems remarkably contrived.
An idea does occur to me though... what about an expensive chamber that simply hampers, slows or stops all siege turrets within an area? That way the Aliens have a way to counter the effects, but not one that can't easily be disposed of by marines.
Darc Myst
Darc Myst
sure, you can umbra the doorway, open the door, laugh at the turrets, throw in a couple bile bombs, but then you're blown up by a grenade spam the size of the entire room.
There is no dodging, there is no evading, there are only explosions. Everywhere
And with grenades having no Friendly Fire outside of the launcher, the marines can do it as quickly and as often as they want. Commander drops some health packs throughout the room, the welder repairs any bile bomb damage, lather, rinse, repeat.
I wasn't there for that game, and I don't know if this is what happened.
But I've seen it before.
The marines <b>are</b> capable of building up to a point of complete invulnerability.
If either the aliens had protection against explosions, or friendly fire was "always on" for explosives, I'd say otherwise.
Overall, I'd say the balance is pretty good between teams.
I'm not happy about the seige turrets firing through walls, but if it requires an attack, then so be it.
Generally speaking, a lerk or two and some fades can get in fast enough to umbra/melee them to death.
But its those damn grenades that throw balance so badly out of whack.
And I guess its not that badly. But it is a problem under certain circumstances.
-Brew
As for the siege cannon... Well I hate it as alien lol. But as marine it's a great way to push forward since aliens tend to build a lot of offense chambers backed up with defense chambers... I think the siege cannon should stay. But what Lt.Warhound said is completely untrue. A siege cannon can easily take out buildings being healed by defense chambers... I've seen it happen, but if you want numbers... A defense chamber heals 10 hit points every time, I'm not sure at what rate that is but it seems to be between 1 and 2 seconds. For arguments sake lets say the defense chamber heals once every second. The siege cannon fires once every 5 seconds. The siege cannon does 330 damage. Over 5 seconds, the defense chambers heal 10 each, and only 3 effects are cumulative, so that's 30 hit points per second. Well 30x5 = 150, next time the siege cannon shoots, the tower only regained 150 hps while the siege does 330, so yes the towers do die to it. That's 180 dmg unrepaired every time. That means an offensive tower dies in 7 shots. (Which still means it takes quite a while to destroy them, but it's the only defense we have, and it damages nearby structure and aliens while shooting at it too) With 2 siege cannons it would be a lot faster, it would only take 3 shots each then. (so 15 seconds)
Right now siege damage is bugged tho, sometimes it does almost no damage, so that's prolly where you got the feeling that a siege cannon cant take out buildings being repaired by a defense chamber.
but while your at it you should give us something that automatically heals them
Here are the things that heal other things:
Alien: Health spray (Structures/Players)
Marines: Welder (Structures)
Right off the bat aliens are unbalanced because marines have to rely on the commander to heal them, they can't ask a field medic or the like
Alien: Defense Chamber (Upgrades [Calling attention to Regeneration]/Heals players/Heals Structures)
Marine: <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? (Nothing that can heal structures, players, or give them upgrades in one single structure...UNBALANCED!!!!)
But wait, there's more!
Alien: Upgrades
Marines: Weapon upgrades
Balanced there, no?
Alien: Evolves
Marines: Weapon Upgrades
Balanced as well
Alien: Fade (Can't be easily killed but can kill with Acid rocket in about 3 hits...also they get Organic shells [armor])
Marine: Heavy armor (Easily killed by Fade, no built in weaponry such as a fade)
Unbalanced...
Alien: Onos (HP out the ...)
Marines: Siege Cannon
I'd say balanced, because onos can move, siege cannon cannot but siege cannon only attacks structures, onos can do both
Alien: Cloaking/Flying
Marine: Flying (jetpack, but has to be researched)
Unbalanced, Marines are broad as day and can't hide, aliens can cloak and fly
The game is not balanced, and the Aliens just like to pick out the things that actually balance the game for the Marines
Marines can't heal their structures unless they have a welder, aliens can repair theirs 3 different ways
So think about it before you whine next time...thx
Just saw this
It was talking about siege cannons and what not
Siege cannons can only attack Structures, not players, though some people like to think they attakc the players just so they have something else to whine about
If you're standing near a structure (The defense chamber they built) and the siege cannon fires upon it, YOU WILL GET HIT WITHT HE SPLASH DAMAGE!
The siege cannon isn't attacking you, it's attacking the structure, you just happen to be there at the time
Same thing with fade acid rockets, if I'm standing near a turret and a fade fires at the turret, I get hit witht he splash damage and more then likely (with the new upgrades to fades) die...
I play marines and aliens i find both to be very good and balanced and i believe i have won more times as alien that as marines... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
If your losing its not because of balance...
At the time we had about 3 resources, so the commander was basically giving out hmg and gl when he could and a few wielders, and told us good luck. With all of us at base (5 people +1 com) we were easily able to decimate any ornos that came in. The problem wasnt really with the turrents, the problem was with the alien tactics.
For albout an hour, we had one ornos comming at us at a time. So we'd all fire on him and he'd die in 3 seconds. Rush, repair, reload, sit around and wait for resources/next attack. Basically the same two guys on the alien team comming to attack us. The only time things slightly got hairy was when two came in at once. But then the rest of the alien team seemed to be content sitting around and probably building offensive chambers when the should of been assulting.
During this entire time the cc kept making do with our limited resources. Eventualy we sent out a few people to cap another resource and managed to get upgraded. Eventually we were able to overrun one hive and all the aliens left.
The problem here was the aliens bar one or two people didnt attack in force. I didn't see any xenocides, I saw skulks running aorund tho. And they didnt try to press any sort of attack. I guess they just expected us to roll over when we saw the ornos.
Seiously, 40+ turrents is just asking for a continual stream of xenocides.
You also point out aliens can be healed in the field while marines depend on commander, but you forget that marines can also repair in the field. Weld armor, and since HA absorbs 95% of the damage, it's almost as good if not better. (coz it's faster) Early on you dont have HA, so of course then it doesnt work, but a good commander will heal, and can heal A LOT faster then a gorge ever could. (Hotkey health pack and spam if you have to =p) This costs resources, but thats needed or any comm would spam health packs.
As for aliens having structures that heal other players/structures (defense chambers), they are very very needed. Unlike humans, aliens dont have a commanders who sees what is going on. A commander will see when a building is under attack and can easily keep track of the health of his buildings, aliens cant, they need defense towers to let it take care of itself. Without defense towers aliens wouldnt stand a chance simply because they wont know which ones to repair and eventually they'd lose a lot of buildings that way.
Then you go on complaining about upgrades.... So you think 30% dmg upgrade and 30% armor upgrade isnt good enough? And you dont have to spend resources/time to get those every time you spawn. (2 RP might be nothing near end game, but early on it can make a difference, certainly for gorges who need every RP they can get)
I'm not sure what you are talking about saying fades have organic shells, but whatever. You do however say that a marine can be killed in 3 hits by a fade while comparing it to HA.... I'm not sure what kind of HA you wear, but teach me to kill a marine in HA with 3 acid rocket hits. (It takes about 7 direct hits at least) And a marine with HA and HMG owns a fade.
Cloaking/flying... Well only one unit can fly, and cloak has to be researched just like you have to research things. And often sensory is the last upgrade to be made. So that's 3 hives, then you lost anyway. And aliens are supposed to be sneaky like that. You guys get sensors that allows you to see any movement. (which is an awsome upgrade IMO)
Lastly, aliens can heal in 2 ways, defense chambers or healing spray. And only gorges can heal (and gorges suck horribly at combat) while you can have a marine in HA and HMG still capable of welding their teammates and buildings.
No I'm not whining marines are too strong or aliens suck, I'm saying it's balance so leave it, dont **obscenity** marines suck coz they dont, same for aliens.
I'm countering those who say it's unbalanced on marine side
By comparing the specifics it shows that there's an equivalent number of unbalances on both sides compared to the other
You have to have unbalance to balance
for instance on this one game I'm following, there's a Vehicle called a Mosquito, well it's not the biggest ship and has low HP thus it dies quickly, but it's "unbalanced" in speed (fastest vehicle and then there's another ship called a "Galaxy" which has twin 75 MM cannons on it, now that's unbalanced but the speed of the vehicle is so slow that a mosquito could lap it several times before it could shoot, also the cannons are only <=180 arch
It's like the whole paper, rock, scissors thing
rock won't beat paper, therefore you need a scissors
Like a Gorge won't beat a marine, therefore you need a Fade (or lerk or whatever)
Oh, and the "organic shell" is like armor, it's next to health
I figure Fades don't walk around with kevlar on so I'd call it a "shell"
All aliens have it, it's a carapace, a shell, organic armor, whatever
The game is fine right now. On each side you can back yourself into a corner and not be able to get out. You can't always blame it on balancing.
sorry man, you defeated your own post.
As for overall balance, like I said, I think its pretty good.
Except for the grenades.
Maybe there <i>is</i> a tactic against grenade spamming.
Maybe it just takes ub4r l33t sk1llz to get in and around without getting blown up.
I know umbra absorbs most of the bullets, but that doesn't help against explosions.
<i><frustrated></i>I don't know, I haven't figured it out yet
<i><cooled></i> I'd just hate to think that there is, in fact, no response to a completely turtled group of marines with unlimited turrets of both types and armed with grenade launchers.
No one is questioning that you can take out a room with one seige turret and some machineguns.
No one is questioning that each turret type has its counter.
No one is questioning the usefulness of umbra.
I want to know a way around grenades, outside of "dodge them" since there is no friendly fire on grenades, and entire rooms tend to turn into a fireworks factory one an alien shows its face.
<i>tell me a usable tactic</i>
that's all I ask.
-Brew
Yesterday evening I made some tests. We were playing 2 on 2 on map ns_tanith with patch 1.01. It was a directed scenario to exploit some things. Marines established a base with 28 turrets and prepared their HA and HMG and GL (I hope you all know what I mean). We as aliens made all three Hives and all upgrades. We used fades with regeneration, adrenaline and cloaking (all level three). Then we just attacked the marine base. The frontal attack is impossible so we used this tactic. Enter the base, throw some bile bombs and retreat. Regenerate. And then again and again and again. After 15 minutes we were able to disable all 28 turrets. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> But those marines with HA, HMG and GL made some hot minutes for us and it was very hard. And that is how it should be.
I' have something about the fades weapons. (I will also start a new topic on this). They are not working as it is writen in the manual. There is writen that the bile bomb should make damage od 160 to the buildings. We were playing with showing implicted damage in numbers so we saw what damage we were making. Bile bomb which should make damage of 160 but never was bigger then 80. Mostly it was something around 40.
Also the acid rocket which damage should be 60 was mostly somewhere around 40 (so how you can kill a marine with HA with 3 shots when: marines life is 100 plus 200 armor = that is 300. One acid rocket takes, let's say 60 - full damage. Then fade need at least 5 shots. Because mostly it takes something around 40, fade need 8 shots to kill a marine in HA. That is 8 seconds. )
The result of the test is this: the game is balanced (when you have fades with bile bomb). All turrets can be destroyed. This evening I will make another test. If it is possible to destroy turret farm with fades only with acid rocket. Onos are completely useless against turrets farm (when there is 20 or 30 turrets). Skulks xenocide is useless because it take some second or two before he explodes. But he will die in half a second. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> (But I've just got an idea that I will try tonight). The damage of xenocide is nothing big. I used it between (I think) console, armory, spawn point and turret factory and only one building lost more then 1/10 of its health.
If you want to know more, read my topic on Problems and bugs with weapons.