A 'just' God Will Appreciate That The Mind...

Confuzor · September 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">is merciless to sinful to manipulation.</div> <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>A relatively Christian exclusive topic:</b></span>

From the OT topic, <a href='http://www.onlypunjab.com/real/fullstory-newsID-2203.html' target='_blank'>Dog Boy</a>

I am honestly lost for words.

Stories like these make me question religion/faith - can the acknowledgement of some sort of deity be achieved by one individual on his/her own? It seems that the understanding of a deity of any sort requires an advanced intellect of sorts, and even then, it's not enough. I'm starting to think that it takes a certain special individual to come up on his or her own that there's something really 'out' there. Those few individuals spread their ideas, and the common people begin to pick it up.

Call me a heretic, but I am 'convinced' with these kind of stories that not all deaths result in the two choices of heaven and hell (my opinons on purgatory is a confident 'nay'), and that you only get one chance in life to make it to be a Christian to make it in heaven, (possibly other paths to heaven without Christianity, but I'll accept Christianity as the easiest route). Surely God realizes how absolutely fragile a human mind is? It's horrendously easy to manipulate, and most vulnerable in its infant stages, that's why we teach ourselves to make it impenetrable to manipulation. Yet, there's the possibility that this 'shield' we spend years learning to make our mind impenetrable to manipulation is itself corrupt and manipulating us in a certain manner. I can't imagine the mind warp that must go on for some people when they hold on to a certain faith for so long, only to have some foreigner tell them that their entire faith system is false, and unless they change it, they're going to face damnation. Making these kind of changes takes time, and an average seventy year lifespan really is a rather short time learning to unlearn as an adult. Moreover, emotionless evangelizing doesn't accomplish a single thing; I hate it when people go out to preach Christian laws and morality - the necessity of laws is completely negated when they can actually understand, appreciate, and embrace the fundamentals of Christianity: love relationship between God, and from the church community.

By the way,

<a href='http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_world_story_skin/435093%3fformat=html' target='_blank'>Chicken boy is improving.</a>

<i>(damn, it; my title makes no sense whatsoever... should be "is at the mercy")</i>

Bogglesteinsky · September 2004

to be honest, I am at a bit of a loss as to exactly what you point you are trying to make, So I'm going to wait and see if Marine01 can shed any light on it. You seem to be wondering about if a person can create his own deity completely on his own, then you go on to asking if God has taken into account the ease with which the human mind gets manipulated. Not really sure what's going on. Marine?

Confuzor · September 2004

My bad; I'll try to reiteriate.

I'm not exactly sure if this is supposed to be hard fact, but my impression of God is that He wants to reveal himself to everyone. Now, from the time between Christ's death up til the present, there have been people who have not received the Gospel, and died. I don't believe that a just God condemns people for not believing in something that they've never heard.

As an alternative, however, one friend suggested that there have still been individuals who've managed to acknowledge that there's a greater force out there, and are willing to acknowledge it. Without the Gospel, I would think that God could accept people to his kingdom on this basis, unless he has an alternate test set out for them in the afterlife. I also contend that the individuals who come up with such an ideal must have possessed a relatively strong intellect; an intellect nurtured through human socializing amongst others. One might consider them to be of low intelligence, for without science and logic, you might consider them just as a superstitious lot. Still, in comparison to animals, their intelligence has a huge difference.

I guess it's unfair of me to predict the mind of these individuals, but I attribute that they have the minds of the animals that they imitate. For sure they still have the potential to reach the average human intellect and beyond, but I am really troubled as to how they can even comprehend the concept of God. I'm not sure if they even possess a 'language' of any sort. They're minds have been warped so intensively, that I wonder if it's even mature enough to understand the idea of a God. Even children four and younger, who have the ability to grasp some sort of language, are probably utterly confused by the concept of Christianity. The best we can relate to them at their age is, "Jesus loves you, just like mom and dad, but <i>more</i>." Try teaching them that they're actually bad by heart, and that there was this man who died for them to 'erase' their badness. I'm placing my bets that they'll either give a WTH expression, or cry.

I badly connected my arguement, but what I was also trying to point out is just how malleable the human mind is, and once you leave childhood, it keeps to a rather rigid path. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hypothesize that Christianity is most easily instilled at a young age. Towards adults, it can't be done without them realizing that there's a 'need' that they're missing, although most people have found what they consider a worthy substitute to fill that gap.

kida · September 2004

I totally sympathize with you Confuzor and am also at loss of words over such cases that occur from time to time. What even made me more negligable of the positivity that humans can produce was the story about a thirteen year old girl who was strapped down to a potty chair her whole life in isolation from anything. The link is here: <a href='http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=genie' target='_blank'>http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=genie</a>

taboofires · September 2004

[I'm trying to work within the framework of the Bible here]

Certainly God has not taken the same "hands-on" approach that he has taken in the old testament. Is this necissarily a bad thing? I wouldn't say so. Over time, God has advanced from a smitey early stage toward a passive (or possibly non-involvement) stance. God even shows a tinge of regret after the 40 day flood. Regardless, there must be some reason that God doesn't break out the wrath anymore, as he (hopefully, presumably) doesn't do things at random.

There is also the distinct possibility of there being no Hell at all, but rather it being the product of a mistranslation that got romanticized. After all, doesn't it strike you as odd that a benevolent diety would sentance his own flawed creations to eternal damnation?

I can go into the details of either of these if you want, but I don't want to sidetrack too much. I just think both are important for consideration in this thread. But feel free to start other threads <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

What I worry about is, as you mention, people getting too far from the real values of a religion. The most common thing I see is passing judgement, when it is made clear that such a thing is reserved for God.

A few thousand years puts a certain distortion on a writing or ideal. It is probably high time for Christians to reinvent themselves. Perhaps God is trying to tell us that it's our turn to take responsibility for our own actions, to grow up, as it were.

Pepe_Muffassa · September 2004

Well, I'm going to do my best to not bring my own feelings or pre-suppositions about God into the mix, but will try to re-itterate the Bible as best as I can.

Concerning Hell, and the existance there of... I believe it is a place - Jesus descened there after all. Does it contain flames, brimstone, goat legged creatures - I don't know. There was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem that was equated to hell - and it was always burning. I believe that it is more a place that is "absent from God" - which in itself is suffering.

So who is assigned to Hell after death? To be honest, I don't know... I'm not God. What I do know is this ... no one gets to the Father but through Jesus Christ. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a person to receive eternal life. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. For God so loved the whole world that he gave his only begotten Son, that who-so-ever should believe in Him, should not perrish, but have eternal life.

So what does that mean for those who haven't had the opportunity to hear the word? I don't know - I'm not God. I suspect the worst, but that is because of a lack of evidence in the Bible to believe otherwise.

Now, I know that there will be non-believers who will read this thread and get angry and offended at me, and say "I can't believe, I tried" or "the evidence is to shakey for me" or "your a pig headed bible basher" ... thats fine. This is a forum, and you are entitled to whatever belief system you want. However, if you are going to try to get me to change my belief, you have to show me from the Bible why I should. Until then, all argument on the subject will fall on relatively deaf ears.

Marine0I · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although, not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them (Romans 2:14,15).</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I think what Paul was trying to say there was that for those who have not heard of God, they are judged based around their conscience. However, people can kill their conscience

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1 Timothy 4
2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

so just because it feels good and you cant see anything wrong with it doesnt mean God excuses it. For a while I thought it was weird that Jesus died for our sins, and you had to become a Christian/believe in Christ to get to heaven, yet God was perfectly willing to forgive people based around their conscience - why didnt he just do that in the first place. But then I realised the whole forgiveness based around conscience thing was only made possible by Jesus paying for that person's sin anyway.

If you havent already confuzor, I cant recommend enough that you read "Does God believe in Atheists" by John Blanchard, its an excellent book that deals with a whole range of issues. He specifically picked out this one, and claimed that everyone knew at some level, that God exists. Some accept it, some ignore it, and some go completely the other way, but thats all their decision. No one goes to hell because they didnt believe in God, they are condemned because they refused to accept his existance. And many of those that reject God and claim he doesnt exist, wouldnt accept him even if he existed.

I dont know what you believe about God, but I believe he is a God of justice, he will deal with everyone fairly. The Jews had a "age of understanding" which once past meant that they were accountable to God for their sins. I dont think that the Dog boy understands what he is doing, and therefore wont be condemned for it. You cannot understand God and Jesus until you understand evil - thats why its wrong to try and explain to 4 year olds that they are innately evil. They'll figure it out as they grow up.

kida · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires@Sep 28 2004 @ 06:59 AM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A few thousand years puts a certain distortion on a writing or ideal. It is probably high time for Christians to reinvent themselves. Perhaps God is trying to tell us that it's our turn to take responsibility for our own actions, to grow up, as it were. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You have it wrong. As humans we have always been responsible for every action ever made. The difference is God came to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ to pay for all of our sins, so that we wouldn't have to face corporal punishment or eternal damnation.

God works less and less because as a human race we are becoming ignorant of the possibilities of God due to technlogical advances and increased forms of reasoning.

Why God has changed from hard leniency to an all merciful God is beyond my comprehension. It would only seem relevant that the time of Jesus Christ was perfect for his plan of redemption. And I suppose that is why God acts less and less in direct ways because we have the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins and the bible.

But the gist is that God was never responsible, we were.

Snidely · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Sep 28 2004, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What I worry about is, as you mention, people getting too far from the real values of a religion. The most common thing I see is passing judgement, when it is made clear that such a thing is reserved for God.

A few thousand years puts a certain distortion on a writing or ideal. It is probably high time for Christians to reinvent themselves. Perhaps God is trying to tell us that it's our turn to take responsibility for our own actions, to grow up, as it were. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
What do you mean exactly by Christians "reinventing themselves"? I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but God is God, and the bible is His word according to Christianity, right? There doesn't seem much to reinvent; it still has to revolve around your holy book. When it comes to this, the biggest change is the fact that many more people nowadays are capable of reading the bible (compared to, say, two hundred years ago) and so are less relying on a third party to read it for them.

Wheeee · September 2004

reinvent? more like revive. anyway, @confuzor - </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> (romans 5:13). I believe that people who haven't had a chance to hear the law aren't subject to eternal death, they'll just be like the people before Moses.

Bogglesteinsky · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 29 2004, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> (romans 5:13). I believe that people who haven't had a chance to hear the law aren't subject to eternal death, they'll just be like the people before Moses.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
you do realise that doesn't actually answer the question. If the people who have not heard the law are lke the people before moses, what happened to the people before moses? What did God do with them? does He just look at how well they have lived their lives? Helped old ladies across the road?

Fat_Man_Little_Coat · September 2004

I think we're all missing the big question here:

If all dogs go to heaven, does this boy get a free pass?

Things that make you go hmmmm...

Hawkeye · September 2004

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Legionnaired · September 2004

[quote]I'm not exactly sure if this is supposed to be hard fact, but my impression of God is that He wants to reveal himself to everyone. Now, from the time between Christ's death up til the present, there have been people who have not received the Gospel, and died. I don't believe that a just God condemns people for not believing in something that they've never heard.[/quote]

[quote]= Romans 8] 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[10] who[11] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. [/quote]

[quote = Ecclesiastes 3:11] He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. [/quote]

It's my understanding that everyone is, on some level, aware of God. (<a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830709258/104-7823599-2099108?v=glance' target='_blank'>Good book on this topic.</a>) People can either accept Him or reject Him. Ignoring Him is the same as rejecting Him, as our default state is sinful, and his offer is for forgiveness.

It's my personal belief that every single person on the face of the earth that would ever wish to accept God's forgiveness, will be reached by the gospel. Some people are so determined to be their own masters that they would never accept God's grace. However, God in his omnipotence can find and see people who do realize that He is out there, and send people to bring His good news to them.

The link above has some good examples of this, but I've seen some like it in my own church, a friend of mine, went to Cambodia on a missions trip several years ago, and helped pass out food and flyers for a 'revival' or sorts, all the while carrying a bible under his right arm, in a green nylon carrying pouch.

He came across a woman who had seen a vision, that someone carrying a green- bound book on a strap under their right arm would one day tell them the truth about the universe. He did, and her and her whole family are now Christians.

I can't build an argument on anecdotal evidence like that, but it certainly affirms some scriptural interpretations.

taboofires · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Sep 28 2004, 07:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Sep 28 2004, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What I worry about is, as you mention, people getting too far from the real values of a religion. The most common thing I see is passing judgement, when it is made clear that such a thing is reserved for God.

A few thousand years puts a certain distortion on a writing or ideal. It is probably high time for Christians to reinvent themselves. Perhaps God is trying to tell us that it's our turn to take responsibility for our own actions, to grow up, as it were. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
What do you mean exactly by Christians "reinventing themselves"? I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but God is God, and the bible is His word according to Christianity, right? There doesn't seem much to reinvent; it still has to revolve around your holy book. When it comes to this, the biggest change is the fact that many more people nowadays are capable of reading the bible (compared to, say, two hundred years ago) and so are less relying on a third party to read it for them.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yes, they have access to the Bible, and can read it freely, but do they?

By "reinvent" I mean to find their roots, to rediscover what is important, not run around and scrap things. The golden rule, for one, has gone massively out of style. And recruitment drives (though certianly not widespread) are rather against the point. To be a Christian is not just to go to church on Sundays, but to do your best to live by the word of God and the teachings of Jesus, and to have a positive influence on those around you. My experience tells me that it is often forgotten in the bustle of everyday life.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I dont know what you believe about God, but I believe he is a God of justice, he will deal with everyone fairly. The Jews had a "age of understanding" which once past meant that they were accountable to God for their sins.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I suppose what I want then is another "age of understanding," to be held accountable.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You have it wrong. As humans we have always been responsible for every action ever made. The difference is God came to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ to pay for all of our sins, so that we wouldn't have to face corporal punishment or eternal damnation.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

To be responsible for something and to take responsibility for it are different things.

Epidemic · September 2004

I'm sorry if this is off-topic but does the bible say what kind of existence there is after death?

taboofires · September 2004

That is a complicated question, considering the difference between versions (even just via translation).

Go check <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell' target='_blank'>Wikipedia's</a> entry for references to specific passages and links to other resources.

edit: I know this is what I said earlier, I am just posting a resource for more information since Epidemic asked a specific question.

kida · September 2004

Yes, but you are not adding anything different to what you have said a post earlier.

DarkATi · September 2004

Well, first of all, let me say, I hope this post stays civil and doesn't get locked like the last one did. I feel a decent discussion is very healthy, the main problem is no one keeps their mind open to anything else anyone has to say, myself included. So, I'll stay super open-minded while reading what others write in here from now on.

As for what I think, here are my views;

I, too, feel that God is a Just God. Justice & Truth are everything that God is, it is a part of his "character" if you will. God doesn't send anyone to Hell, people send themselves to Hell by denying that God exists. God is clearly capable of emotions and I know that he is crying over the lost people of this world.

I don't think that God has changed like everyone says, I don't think he has become a different God with a new tactic in this Generation, what I do believe is that it is so much easier to sin in this lifetime that no one is as pure as they should be. What I mean by this is, look at Old Testament people, Daniel for instance, or Moses or Noah or David all had major conflicts with God (actually Daniel doesn't have any recorded but of course he sinned) but at the end of that spell they were fully devoted to God.

I've gotten to the point where I'll sin just knowing that I can pray about it and God will forgive me but I'm making no effort to live for God, I'm just taking it all for granted.

This isn't new or anything, history repeats itself;

Read the first chapter of Isaiah and replace all mention of Israel with America.

We are the modern-day Soddom and Gomorrah.

The entire first verse talks about how sick of sacrifices and offerings he is and I think he feels the same way about our prayers asking for forgiveness in Jesus name or rappers thanking God when they get an award.

It's just another ceremony to us, go to church Sunday, go to Sunday School, try not to be "bad", we have everything in this country and yet we have nothing. I think God is simply staying out of our lives because we can't see him working through all the junk we have, lust is huge in America, where sex sells. Violence continues to rise, even in my own neighborhood where I've lived for 11 years, someone cut my convertible top and stole my CDs, wrote "F*** you on a basketball backboard and wrote Go on a Stop sign. And that's just around my little "Leave it to Beaver" neighborhood, I can only imagine what goes on downtown (Dallas). Some of it I don't have to imagine, unfortuanetly, I know.

Ever wonder why we don't do miracleslike in Acts?

Because we don't obey God. James says that all sin is sin, wether it's looking at that hot gurl and imagining what you wanna do with her or telling a "little white lie". Sin is sin and sin = separation from God.

Well, that's all I can think to say. :\

~ DarkATi

TommyVercetti · October 2004

Officially, I'm a Christian, but unlike everyone else in my neighborhood who think they are good Christians because they go to church on holidays, I'm an unwilling agnostic. My question to those of you who study the Bible and the teachings of your God is what is worse: doubting God or stealing and inflicting pain on others? I always try to obey the Golden Rule and not pass judgement on others, yet these other people believe that they will be granted eternal happiness in heaven because they attend mass despite the fact that they have done things far worse than I ever have. Would a just God really condemn me for doubting His existence when there are others who believe in Him steal and harm others?

Oh, and I can't even count lust, because at my age it is inevitable.

Pepe_Muffassa · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Oct 1 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Officially, I'm a Christian, but unlike everyone else in my neighborhood who think they are good Christians because they go to church on holidays, I'm an unwilling agnostic. My question to those of you who study the Bible and the teachings of your God is what is worse: doubting God or stealing and inflicting pain on others? I always try to obey the Golden Rule and not pass judgement on others, yet these other people believe that they will be granted eternal happiness in heaven because they attend mass despite the fact that they have done things far worse than I ever have. Would a just God really condemn me for doubting His existence when there are others who believe in Him steal and harm others?

Oh, and I can't even count lust, because at my age it is inevitable.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Good question - let me see if I can attempt to clear things up.

Standard Christian doctarine goes something like this:

Christ died for all your sins.
Belief in Jesus is necessary for eternal life.
(John 3:16)
Hypocracy is not acceptable. (see book of Romans)

In terms of "which is worse" - Christianity is not a comparitive religion. There is no "I do less bad than person x, so I have to be accepted". Attending mass is not a gaurenteed buy into heaven - neither is being a philanthropist, or just trying not to hurt anyone.

So would God condemn you for doubting? I think everyone doubts at some point or another - it is what you do with the doubt that matters. Do you remain in doubt and let it evolve into cynacism, or do you attempt to read the Bible more, and understand who God is and allow his spirit to allay your doubts?

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. By that alone, we all deserve death. God layed out an alternate route - Jesus died for those who believe in him. As a result, those who believe don't need to experience the punishment for our sins - the wrath of God. However faith without works is fruitless - therefore, do those things which God commands of you...

Concerning lust - just because it is inevitable, doesn't make it excusable.

DarkATi · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Oct 1 2004, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Oct 1 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Officially, I'm a Christian, but unlike everyone else in my neighborhood who think they are good Christians because they go to church on holidays, I'm an unwilling agnostic. My question to those of you who study the Bible and the teachings of your God is what is worse: doubting God or stealing and inflicting pain on others? I always try to obey the Golden Rule and not pass judgement on others, yet these other people believe that they will be granted eternal happiness in heaven because they attend mass despite the fact that they have done things far worse than I ever have. Would a just God really condemn me for doubting His existence when there are others who believe in Him steal and harm others?

Oh, and I can't even count lust, because at my age it is inevitable. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Good question - let me see if I can attempt to clear things up.

Standard Christian doctarine goes something like this:

Christ died for all your sins.
Belief in Jesus is necessary for eternal life.
(John 3:16)
Hypocracy is not acceptable. (see book of Romans)

In terms of "which is worse" - Christianity is not a comparitive religion. There is no "I do less bad than person x, so I have to be accepted". Attending mass is not a gaurenteed buy into heaven - neither is being a philanthropist, or just trying not to hurt anyone.

So would God condemn you for doubting? I think everyone doubts at some point or another - it is what you do with the doubt that matters. Do you remain in doubt and let it evolve into cynacism, or do you attempt to read the Bible more, and understand who God is and allow his spirit to allay your doubts?

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. By that alone, we all deserve death. God layed out an alternate route - Jesus died for those who believe in him. As a result, those who believe don't need to experience the punishment for our sins - the wrath of God. However faith without works is fruitless - therefore, do those things which God commands of you...

Concerning lust - just because it is inevitable, doesn't make it excusable.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
And to further back the statement that Christianity isn't based on how bad a person is, see James 2: 10 & 11. Just a little scriptural reference there for ya.

~ DarkATi

A 'just' God Will Appreciate That The Mind...

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