My View On Source/hl2 Ns
MEShootHere
Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6975Members
Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6975Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Not a wishthread</div> Let me start out by saying this topic is free to get deleted or possibly locked if the admins feel this needs to be done. But I have to voice my opinion.
Here we have NS, a fun and refreshing mod for Half Life that started quite a while ago.
Along comes the promise of Half Life 2 (and later the Source engine with CS:S) and suddenly one hears a LOT of people going: OMG NS2 ON HL2 ENGINE OMG OMG OMG DO IT NOW!!!11
I disagree.
The reason why mods such as CS remain popular through the years is because of the relatively "low" system requirements needed to play the game at an enjoyable level (fps).
What a lot of people fail to realize is that not everybody has a radeon x800 XT Super OverClock Power Special 1gb TDR Gold Edition.
Its always a pleasure when hooking up with people to play a bit of lanning that most mods on the HL engine remain playable even for them, even through their systems are rather old.
Sure, NS makes heavy use of the (now dying) HL1 rechnology and it looks fabulous using such an old engine, but it is still playable on a lot of older machines.
My second argument is as to WHY port it to a new engine (at least at times time):
Nobody will ever hear me say I did not shiver with delight when the tech demo video for HL2 came online. Nor will I deny that I didn't repeatedly wet myself when I first played CS:S and shot stuff down a ramp or did stuff like that. Sure it's all amazing and incredibly fun and gorgeous and new.
But what would this sort of stuff do for NS? My idea is: nothing.
Sure the graphics would look a lot tighter, there would be hardly any problems with "odd corpses" in the way NS sees them now and finally we could get away from HL1 engine's restrictions (max weapons and certain things just being impossible to realize).
But consider the following: rolling barrels? Ways to move debris around the map?
Just wouldnt work. First of all because aliens are highly dependent on mobility (especially skulks) and such "movable junk" would just obstruct their path and make it very hard to get near a marine if such clutter is left around.
Secondly because this game is also an RTS. Oh sure watch the funky broken pipe roll down the hallway! Oh wow it's so cool! Oh waitaminnit, its now stuck on an RT...We can't get an RT! COMM WE NEED A BULLDOZER FAST!
This would impact gameplay a LOT and in a game such as NS where matches last longer and placement of certain devices is so important, it would hinder more than add.
And one must always take into account "The Human Factor". By this I mean people which intentionally try to ruin the game. Having such objects on a map will give less-friendly people a big chance to create havoc on a server. In CS they reset every round and do not have such a large impact because both teams have ranged weaponry, in NS this is not so. The Kharaa require movement. Putting anything in the game that may obstruct this, would require SERIOUS testing and possibly redisigning the entire game concept.
So in conclusion:
The player base for NS is slim enough as is. By this I mean the good player base. Let us not thin it out further by possibly imposing big technological upgrades to our players.
Sure NS may look a lot better with a new engine but the drawbacks of the physics engine alone when speaking of an RTS (or FPS/RTS hybrid) do pose a serious threat to the playability of the game itself.
And even though I would love to see the results of NS running on such an engine I do not think it is at this point in time worth the trade offs. NS requires fixing and balancing, all the issues the team would face even with just a straight port to another engine (and making use of this new engine's features and possibilities) would be too much at this time.
So I say NAY to a new engine for now.
NS looks good, feels good and plays good! Sure it requires tweaking but this would not be fixed through going to a new engine. This would merely shift the problem or worse, create a LOT of new ones.
*** NOTE: if you feel the need to flame or say things like "LETS THEM GET A NEW ATI RADEON OMG LOLOLOLOLOL!!11" please do not reply. Not everyone has money growing on their backs and getting a gameplay computer up to today's standards can be quite an investment. Never ever let money or a financial situation be the factor for one of your replies.
Just my 2c
Here we have NS, a fun and refreshing mod for Half Life that started quite a while ago.
Along comes the promise of Half Life 2 (and later the Source engine with CS:S) and suddenly one hears a LOT of people going: OMG NS2 ON HL2 ENGINE OMG OMG OMG DO IT NOW!!!11
I disagree.
The reason why mods such as CS remain popular through the years is because of the relatively "low" system requirements needed to play the game at an enjoyable level (fps).
What a lot of people fail to realize is that not everybody has a radeon x800 XT Super OverClock Power Special 1gb TDR Gold Edition.
Its always a pleasure when hooking up with people to play a bit of lanning that most mods on the HL engine remain playable even for them, even through their systems are rather old.
Sure, NS makes heavy use of the (now dying) HL1 rechnology and it looks fabulous using such an old engine, but it is still playable on a lot of older machines.
My second argument is as to WHY port it to a new engine (at least at times time):
Nobody will ever hear me say I did not shiver with delight when the tech demo video for HL2 came online. Nor will I deny that I didn't repeatedly wet myself when I first played CS:S and shot stuff down a ramp or did stuff like that. Sure it's all amazing and incredibly fun and gorgeous and new.
But what would this sort of stuff do for NS? My idea is: nothing.
Sure the graphics would look a lot tighter, there would be hardly any problems with "odd corpses" in the way NS sees them now and finally we could get away from HL1 engine's restrictions (max weapons and certain things just being impossible to realize).
But consider the following: rolling barrels? Ways to move debris around the map?
Just wouldnt work. First of all because aliens are highly dependent on mobility (especially skulks) and such "movable junk" would just obstruct their path and make it very hard to get near a marine if such clutter is left around.
Secondly because this game is also an RTS. Oh sure watch the funky broken pipe roll down the hallway! Oh wow it's so cool! Oh waitaminnit, its now stuck on an RT...We can't get an RT! COMM WE NEED A BULLDOZER FAST!
This would impact gameplay a LOT and in a game such as NS where matches last longer and placement of certain devices is so important, it would hinder more than add.
And one must always take into account "The Human Factor". By this I mean people which intentionally try to ruin the game. Having such objects on a map will give less-friendly people a big chance to create havoc on a server. In CS they reset every round and do not have such a large impact because both teams have ranged weaponry, in NS this is not so. The Kharaa require movement. Putting anything in the game that may obstruct this, would require SERIOUS testing and possibly redisigning the entire game concept.
So in conclusion:
The player base for NS is slim enough as is. By this I mean the good player base. Let us not thin it out further by possibly imposing big technological upgrades to our players.
Sure NS may look a lot better with a new engine but the drawbacks of the physics engine alone when speaking of an RTS (or FPS/RTS hybrid) do pose a serious threat to the playability of the game itself.
And even though I would love to see the results of NS running on such an engine I do not think it is at this point in time worth the trade offs. NS requires fixing and balancing, all the issues the team would face even with just a straight port to another engine (and making use of this new engine's features and possibilities) would be too much at this time.
So I say NAY to a new engine for now.
NS looks good, feels good and plays good! Sure it requires tweaking but this would not be fixed through going to a new engine. This would merely shift the problem or worse, create a LOT of new ones.
*** NOTE: if you feel the need to flame or say things like "LETS THEM GET A NEW ATI RADEON OMG LOLOLOLOLOL!!11" please do not reply. Not everyone has money growing on their backs and getting a gameplay computer up to today's standards can be quite an investment. Never ever let money or a financial situation be the factor for one of your replies.
Just my 2c
Comments
I think if a new NS is built to take a physics engine into account the gameplay could improve a lot.
Perhaps fades are able to throw heavy metal objects lying around? That would give the aliens a decent ranged weapon. Just an exemple on how it can add to gameplay.
And the low end machine argument is valid however, if they start working on NS:Source when HL2 comes out, the average system will probubly be able to handle NS:Source. And if you dont want to upgrade you will have to live with being abandoned eventually.
As for hl2, like you say i view all of the new game engines as flashy graphics. Ok so you can now move stuff around and take a ride but what you really want is for the players to be able to alter the design of the level as they play. I would love to see an engine capable of letting players make their own tunnels and passages through a level.
Ofc this presents unique challenges not least avoiding worms syndrome, eg bits of earth in mid air with nothing to support them and an endgame where there is nothing left
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First person diablo anyone? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just a thought tho <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You can't just go and stop the evolution because there's a group that still only has acces to pentium 500's and 56k dial up. If the devs want to start working on a NS port to HL2, than by all means I think they should! It'll make NS an even prettier game with more possibilities (gamewise but also mapping wise).
Besides, I'm sure HL1 NS will allways be around anyway for those with the lesser comps. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just an example, take UT99 and UT2K4. UT99 runs on the slowest of comps, but still everyone pretty much moved to UT2K4. That kinda negates your arguement right there.
One thing that everyone wants but the Half-life engine insists we cant have is the volumetric Flamethrower. Perhaps on the Source engine, this will be possible to implement.
I am 99% sure it will be a looooooooooooooong time before CS and other mods die out on the HL1 engine.
I am not saying "Don't do it! EVAH!" I am more akin to saying "Don't do it right now".
HL1/Steam is long from dead at this point in time.
In a year or so hardware able to run these games will be much more affordable (especially in the price race once such games have been out a while) cuz who is going to buy anything that cant run hl2 decently?
I am all for a new engine, as I said it'd look gorgeous but I am pretty sure that at this point in time it would be more trouble than it is worth. With all the balance issues and such they are way better off testing and fixing those in the current engine than risking getting a lot of new problems due to a new engine.
It seems my post wasn't as clear as I had hoped it to be <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> oh well..
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When you are talking you are talking about people that can just run HL, and would have no chance on running HL2, you're essentially talking about people with... say... a GeForce 3 and lower. Now really, I don't think a modification should be kept from a better engine just because of that audience.
EDIT: Pretty sure this was my original message, nothing "not nice" about it.
WHat i will rekon will happen is when HL2 comes out roughly 1/2 the HL1 community will go to play HL2 games and as more mods come out more and more ppl will migrate to HL2 games. I rekon after a year the HL community will be severly depleated...
And then there are all the HL specific bugs. Hitbox issues. Animation issues (ever wonder why aliens don't have attack animations in game, despite having the models for them? It's because the HL engine can't handle them). That sort of thing.
On the "movable objects" front, barrels are not the epitomy of movables. I'm thinking more along the lines of walls, platforms, the floor... deformable terrain. Imagine an onos charging down a corridor, bursting open all kinds of pipes as he goes along. And it wouldn't just be a visual experience... this is a gameplay effecting (and enhancing) aspect... marines get to close alien routes, aliens get to make new routes of their own.
And then there's the possibility of outdoor areas. Flayra has already mentioned that NS on HL2 would be a complete rewrite, so we could expect such things to both A) exist and B) be balanced, unlike the current situation.
Assuming a map is just a large cube (full of corridoors.. etc) that ppl can run around in, I can see many games ending up with every piece of destroyable terrain being blown up. Leaving both teams running round in this giant cube... I know what ppl in online games are like - destroy EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then ppl would say 'only certain bits will be destroyable' which just nerfs the idea in the first place. I know HL2 supports deformable terrain and TF is gonna use it apparently, but I think it will be just icing on the cake stuff (like being able to hide in newly formed impact craters) and not a revolution in game play. Will still be fun though.
Seriously, a lot of the problems noted herein have also crossed our minds. The fundamental - and as of yet unanswerable - question is how the HL community as a whole will react to HL2's release. Yes, thanks to the hype it's easy enough to picture the biggest part of the multiple million people moving on within so little as a few weeks, but that's not the only possible outcome by far. Keep in mind that other heavily hyped titles (Black & White being the poster child) crashed and burned less than a month into their release - it'd be folly to invest any kind of effort into a port to a game nobody is interested in. Additional to this, there's the considerable question of the workload of such a port. In the best of all cases, if Valve's promises are all true (and though I have a deep admiration for that company, I'm willing to doubt it), we're looking at a complete recreation of our artistical assets plus a significant coding effort. If Valve's promises are hollow, we're looking at a basically complete development cycle. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be worth that under any condition, but we'll have to see how the public reacts to HL2 and how much work it takes to do a port before making any kind of decision.
Should that decision be positive, I've got to say that I don't really agree with your assessment of the Source engine's benefits, Shoot. Yes, we'd lose a number of players on low-end machines, but since we are, as was already noted, taxing the HL engine to and beyond its limits, I'll wager that this demographic would be surprisingly small. Consider that even computers that were bought to play Quake 3 can hardly bear a 32 player game of NS.
As for the physics, they would've to be incorporated into NS' gameplay. It's true that the gimmicy 'Let's allow them to shoot barrels' approach all too popular among developers would not work out for this game, but this does not mean that Havoc couldn't be used to great effect. As an example, Flayra orginally intended Fades to be able to 'olley' through the levels - to pounce from wall to wall. This was just not possible on the HL engine's physics, but might just work out with a more realistic calculation of velocities. True, physics open doors to new exploits. As usual, it's the (unpopular) job of the devs to quell them in one way or the other.
For now, however, we're tasked with getting 3.0 final out of the door. You may bet that we won't disgrace the HL community by leaving it with another half-finished mod, so until our work is done, it's all idle speculation in any case.
It was simply a humorous way of supporting your above statement.
In any case, the HL1 gaming community will not likely die until most mods are fully ported over. You can bet that the NS community will likely stay fairly active at least 6 months beyond the release of HL2, if the devs can fix the tremendous balance problems of classic mode.
Basically, all of those people who are so worried about having to update for HL2 will probably have a good 6 months to update their systems to something that will be able to handle Source games before the HL1 community really diminishes. Also, since both engine's communities will be a part of the steam community, it's possible that HL1 might not die for years.
Who knows. It's all speculation at this point.
Pipes and stuff exploding around onos wouldn't be the best way to implement Source, since it would scare the hell out of the player if stuff started exploding around him...
But deformable terrain(preferably not like Red Factions though, since then you would blow a hole into outer space...) sounds like it could be awesome.
Then again, mappers can put pushables in the map right now, and look how many have done that? The lack of limits is probably the biggest change anyone will notice, should the port happen.
Assuming a map is just a large cube (full of corridoors.. etc) that ppl can run around in, I can see many games ending up with every piece of destroyable terrain being blown up. Leaving both teams running round in this giant cube... I know what ppl in online games are like - destroy EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then ppl would say 'only certain bits will be destroyable' which just nerfs the idea in the first place. I know HL2 supports deformable terrain and TF is gonna use it apparently, but I think it will be just icing on the cake stuff (like being able to hide in newly formed impact craters) and not a revolution in game play. Will still be fun though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very unlikely, as most of NS's gameplay takes place in space stations and star-ships. If you peirce the hull, it's very conceivable that the entire section could become depressurized unless something was set to prevent such a occurance. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marines - It'll be quite a nuissance (spellcheck baby) for the commander if there would happen to be a metal box in a sexy place to place a phasegate. But for the marines in the action - it may be helpful. Perhaps placing some barrels in the way of a fleeing onos. Or using a box as a moving shield against a fleet of offense chambers. (I suggest alien poop so that the boxes stick to the ground in front of the ocs... or maybe goo... w/e...)
Aliens - Might buy time for some gorges that are rapidly preparing for a marine invasion. Or maybe blocking off key phase gate locations with barrels. Which is lame. And of course for the fleeing fade who is trapped when a marine happens to place a box in the exit.
I guess if ns is to be ported - the devs can handle it and what not.
But yes the physics would be nice... and it sure as hell isn't my decision - go go go devs.
This was a joke, if you didn't already realize...
*drools*
Oni could simply trample any movable, sending them flailing through the room.
Don't worry, there are solutions
800MHz
128 RAM
DirectX 6 based video card
800MHz
128 RAM
DirectX 6 based video card <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are old.
Minimum Requirements
* 1.2 GHz Processor
* 256MB RAM
* DirectX 7 level graphics card
* Windows 2000/XP/ME/98
* Mouse
* Keyboard
Preferred System
* 2.4 GHz Processor
* 512MB RAM
* DirectX 9 level graphics card
* Windows 2000/XP
* Mouse
* Keyboard
<u>Physics</u>
-Ragdolls would be awesome. Watch a dead lerk spiral to the ground or an Onos flinging a marine's lifeless body across the room.
- Hive rocks as its hit, possibly knocking any gestating aliens or upgrade chambers to the ground.
- Cables and Chains that move (but not obstruct) when passed though. Imagine how cool it would be to have Aliens bursting through a curtain of cables.
<u>Terrain Deformation</u>
-Unbuilt hive rooms look brand new, when you build a hive the terrain gradually deforms as its built - defined by the mapper. Same for alien res towers.
- Weldable sections can be made to warp and bend as your complete the weld.
<u>Texture shaders</u>
- Dynamic infestation. Alien Chambers splatter the surroundings with that um.. green stuff.