1) Children are deemed more horrible as targets than parents, because they are seen as "innocent" - not having had the time to grown old, experienced, and sin.. they are naive. Innocent. And thus a greater sin to tarnish that. 2) "It's just death, get over it"? Where do you get off saying this? Sure, I know from a "logical" standpoint, but i'd be interested in seeing what actual experience you had in the matter. Has your mother died yet? Were you there? What about your child - has he/she been brutally murdered? Please share your stories.
<!--QuoteBegin-Liku+Sep 3 2004, 10:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Liku @ Sep 3 2004, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cpl.PanCake+Sep 3 2004, 08:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.PanCake @ Sep 3 2004, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think the terrorists stripped the children naked only with their underwears left because i saw them running otu with no clothes... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's already been a<b>dressed</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i see what you did there
Haha anarki... spreading The Goon to as many threads as possible, eh?
And, Oh God. A few minutes ago I just got my first "Chechen School Terrorist" msn spam. Basically it consisted of some random idiot girl asking me, in poorly typed and constructed semi-english, to promote the message to as many other people, and to 'do it for all those poor children that the Chechen's killed'.
In essence, a note saying "Pass this note on". Only it says, "Plz pass this note on, 4 all the pore 'n starving kidz out ther."
I simply can't understand things like this. This does nothing but demonise the Chechen fighters and hurts their cause tremendously. Similarly to the PLO blowing up civilian buses.
The Chechans, like the Palestinians, most likely do have legitimate grievences. But people simply won't support them when they resort to tactics like this. Putin was unlikely to back down even if the terrorists started blowing up children, and seeing as they did all it does is steel the resolve of Russia to keep fighting. Putin can claim, with no small measure of justification, that he's fighting terrorists, not freedom fighters. And the world will, for the most part, agree with him.
The same goes for the PLO. Regardless of what Israel does to the West Bank, the world doesn't react much because Palestinan groups continue to target civilians.
These people have certainly demonstrated that they are willing to die for their cause, but they're going about it the wrong way. India overthrew a massive global empire through non-violent protest; why can't the Chechans and Palestinians learn from history. The minute CNN shows Russian MiGs firebombing crowds of passive-resisting civilians, or Israeli tanks crushing peaceful protesters, world opinion will swing directly in favour of the peaceful side. The opinion of the world matters a great deal these days, but all these groups seem to understand is violence. In both cases, trying to use military force to defeat an enemy vastly better equipped than you just makes no sense.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Maus+Sep 4 2004, 03:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maus @ Sep 4 2004, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I found rather messed up was the BBC reporting that not only were soldiers shooting into the building when things started to go wrong, but local people with their own firearms were joining in. I'm sure that's what exactly security services want - civilians shooting into crowds of children.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> heh, dont you remember when the chechen? rebels took over that train, and the russian special forces used that "safe nerve gas" which ended up killing half the hostages as well?
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-locallyunscene+Sep 4 2004, 12:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (locallyunscene @ Sep 4 2004, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thank god not many people were hurt, way to pick the worst news source and then blow the story out of proportion CWAG : / Do you work for the media around here all ready? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Newsweek <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At least 150 were dead and hundreds more wounded, reported Russian authorities at the siege’s end<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its more then 10.
and besides I just watched the news and they just said over 300 dead and its been a day since this happened.
Where the 300 number comes from, probably
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->“We’ve never had as many terror attacks as we have had under [President Vladimir] Putin,” says Vladimir Rhyzhkov, a liberal member of the Duma, Russia’s lower house of Parliament. “It’s unprecedented.” So far this year, more than 300 have died—compared to 369 in 2002 and 2003 combined. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:red'>Relevant post deleted.</span>
Back on topic, does anyone know what the Chechens actually want? I mean, I'm just trying to grasp why someone might bomb a school full of kids. It's freaking wrong.
EDIT: After reading my rant, I have to say I might have gotten a little riled up, and would like to point out the "ours is better" comment was sarcasm. Because I KNOW someone would have thought I was serious.
<!--QuoteBegin-docchimpy+Sep 4 2004, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (docchimpy @ Sep 4 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back on topic, does anyone know what the Chechens actually want? I mean, I'm just trying to grasp why someone might bomb a school full of kids. It's freaking wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh I can understand what the Chechens want; they want their land back. It isn't going to happen, and in no way do I agree with what they did (quite the opposite), but at least in some small way they are justified in their actions. They took my ball so i'm going to throw a brick through their window, then everything will be better.
I find the Islamic extremists far more repulsive, they seem to want nothing more than the total destruction of anyone who is not Islamic, starting with the Christian faith, because naturally they are evil. If they even tried reading the Koran, the book for which they are blowing themselves up for, they would see that killing is pretty much a bad thing, but no, they'd rather focus on the whole sacred virgins thing.
But then, who are we to talk, isn't that exactly what the crusades were about?
<span style='color:red'>Relevant post deleted.</span>
I'm going to start a topic in the discussion forum, I think that would be better than using this thread, my apologies for the Off Topic remarks.
Anyway, what the hell were those Chechens thinking? Now they won't get the land, since they performed such a horible act of terror(No WAY any government could deal with these guys without losing a serious amount of respect.) , but since they don't get the land, they perform more horrible acts of terror, then don't get the land because of the horrible act, and the cycle continues...Violence really solves nothing.
...so sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Too bad it had to be children. Maybe if the Russian forces would have stormed in there, some people could have lived.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mullet+Sep 4 2004, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Sep 4 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...so sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Too bad it had to be children. Maybe if the Russian forces would have stormed in there, some people could have lived. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They did. <a href='http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/14036_school.html' target='_blank'>Read this</a>. They saved hundreds of people so far, there aren't actually many civilian deaths.
<!--QuoteBegin-eediot+Sep 4 2004, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eediot @ Sep 4 2004, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) Children are deemed more horrible as targets than parents, because they are seen as "innocent" - not having had the time to grown old, experienced, and sin.. they are naive. Innocent. And thus a greater sin to tarnish that. 2) "It's just death, get over it"? Where do you get off saying this? Sure, I know from a "logical" standpoint, but i'd be interested in seeing what actual experience you had in the matter. Has your mother died yet? Were you there? What about your child - has he/she been brutally murdered? Please share your stories. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Friend died last year, and my grandad died ten years ago. I never went to either funeral.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Sep 4 2004, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Sep 4 2004, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mullet+Sep 4 2004, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Sep 4 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...so sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Too bad it had to be children. Maybe if the Russian forces would have stormed in there, some people could have lived. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They did. <a href='http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/14036_school.html' target='_blank'>Read this</a>. They saved hundreds of people so far, there aren't actually many civilian deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm notice how other sources are still reporting on this attack and are now saying
"almost all the hostages were killed. Over 300 deaths."
Even President Putin says they screwed up. Others report that the counter terrorist team was not prepaired and messed the operation up.
The only sources I see saying that there arent that many deaths are Russian ones, or Russian run sources printed in English.
Remember, the US isnt the only country in the world that tries to censor info going to its citizens.
Russia has been going through a lot lately.... two airliners, now this. Moscow seems quiet, I wonder what's going through their minds right now, and if they're going to respond this time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 4 2004, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 4 2004, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I simply can't understand things like this. This does nothing but demonise the Chechen fighters and hurts their cause tremendously. Similarly to the PLO blowing up civilian buses.
The Chechans, like the Palestinians, most likely do have legitimate grievences. But people simply won't support them when they resort to tactics like this. Putin was unlikely to back down even if the terrorists started blowing up children, and seeing as they did all it does is steel the resolve of Russia to keep fighting. Putin can claim, with no small measure of justification, that he's fighting terrorists, not freedom fighters. And the world will, for the most part, agree with him.
The same goes for the PLO. Regardless of what Israel does to the West Bank, the world doesn't react much because Palestinan groups continue to target civilians.
These people have certainly demonstrated that they are willing to die for their cause, but they're going about it the wrong way. India overthrew a massive global empire through non-violent protest; why can't the Chechans and Palestinians learn from history. The minute CNN shows Russian MiGs firebombing crowds of passive-resisting civilians, or Israeli tanks crushing peaceful protesters, world opinion will swing directly in favour of the peaceful side. The opinion of the world matters a great deal these days, but all these groups seem to understand is violence. In both cases, trying to use military force to defeat an enemy vastly better equipped than you just makes no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited September 2004
<span style='color:orange'>Can't tell whether you're trying to be cynical about the quote you put in or the event itself, and the image needed removing, and I'm on a roll, so just deal with me here</span>
The handling of the matter does strike me as somewhat incompetant.
I heard reports that a lot of the terrorists managed to flee the school grounds and hole up in nearby buildings. I also heard that the terrorists initiated the battle. Both of which suggest that the counterterrorism force didn't know what it was doing. Why the <i>hell</i> didn't they have all the exits covered? Why couldn't they maintain control over the situation, attacking on their terms?
They should have asked for help from a foreign counterterrorist unit (something that is not without precedent). Not that they would have, of course...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SOOOOO badass, 16 year old living in a middle class home, SOOO cool because he doesn't have sympathy for dead children!! omg i want to be like you!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at it this way, at least it's not as retarded as disregarding massive cruelty, disease, hunger and poverty over large portions of the globe just to shed some crocodile tears for the suffering of a mere few humans that happened to get some media coverage which is pretty much sums up the behavior of most people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Sep 5 2004, 01:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Sep 5 2004, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SOOOOO badass, 16 year old living in a middle class home, SOOO cool because he doesn't have sympathy for dead children!! omg i want to be like you!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at it this way, at least it's not as retarded as disregarding massive cruelty, disease, hunger and poverty over large portions of the globe just to shed some crocodile tears for the suffering of a mere few humans that happened to get some media coverage which is pretty much sums up the behavior of most people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's still retarded.
Comments
2) "It's just death, get over it"? Where do you get off saying this? Sure, I know from a "logical" standpoint, but i'd be interested in seeing what actual experience you had in the matter. Has your mother died yet? Were you there? What about your child - has he/she been brutally murdered? Please share your stories.
It's already been a<b>dressed</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i see what you did there
And, Oh God. A few minutes ago I just got my first "Chechen School Terrorist" msn spam. Basically it consisted of some random idiot girl asking me, in poorly typed and constructed semi-english, to promote the message to as many other people, and to 'do it for all those poor children that the Chechen's killed'.
In essence, a note saying "Pass this note on". Only it says, "Plz pass this note on, 4 all the pore 'n starving kidz out ther."
The Chechans, like the Palestinians, most likely do have legitimate grievences. But people simply won't support them when they resort to tactics like this. Putin was unlikely to back down even if the terrorists started blowing up children, and seeing as they did all it does is steel the resolve of Russia to keep fighting. Putin can claim, with no small measure of justification, that he's fighting terrorists, not freedom fighters. And the world will, for the most part, agree with him.
The same goes for the PLO. Regardless of what Israel does to the West Bank, the world doesn't react much because Palestinan groups continue to target civilians.
These people have certainly demonstrated that they are willing to die for their cause, but they're going about it the wrong way. India overthrew a massive global empire through non-violent protest; why can't the Chechans and Palestinians learn from history. The minute CNN shows Russian MiGs firebombing crowds of passive-resisting civilians, or Israeli tanks crushing peaceful protesters, world opinion will swing directly in favour of the peaceful side. The opinion of the world matters a great deal these days, but all these groups seem to understand is violence. In both cases, trying to use military force to defeat an enemy vastly better equipped than you just makes no sense.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, dont you remember when the chechen? rebels took over that train, and the russian special forces used that "safe nerve gas" which ended up killing half the hostages as well?
Whoops.
Newsweek
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At least 150 were dead and hundreds more wounded, reported Russian authorities at the siege’s end<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its more then 10.
and besides I just watched the news and they just said over 300 dead and its been a day since this happened.
Where the 300 number comes from, probably
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->“We’ve never had as many terror attacks as we have had under [President Vladimir] Putin,” says Vladimir Rhyzhkov, a liberal member of the Duma, Russia’s lower house of Parliament. “It’s unprecedented.” So far this year, more than 300 have died—compared to 369 in 2002 and 2003 combined. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back on topic, does anyone know what the Chechens actually want? I mean, I'm just trying to grasp why someone might bomb a school full of kids. It's freaking wrong.
EDIT: After reading my rant, I have to say I might have gotten a little riled up, and would like to point out the "ours is better" comment was sarcasm. Because I KNOW someone would have thought I was serious.
Oh I can understand what the Chechens want; they want their land back. It isn't going to happen, and in no way do I agree with what they did (quite the opposite), but at least in some small way they are justified in their actions. They took my ball so i'm going to throw a brick through their window, then everything will be better.
I find the Islamic extremists far more repulsive, they seem to want nothing more than the total destruction of anyone who is not Islamic, starting with the Christian faith, because naturally they are evil. If they even tried reading the Koran, the book for which they are blowing themselves up for, they would see that killing is pretty much a bad thing, but no, they'd rather focus on the whole sacred virgins thing.
But then, who are we to talk, isn't that exactly what the crusades were about?
I'm going to start a topic in the discussion forum, I think that would be better than using this thread, my apologies for the Off Topic remarks.
Anyway, what the hell were those Chechens thinking? Now they won't get the land, since they performed such a horible act of terror(No WAY any government could deal with these guys without losing a serious amount of respect.) , but since they don't get the land, they perform more horrible acts of terror, then don't get the land because of the horrible act, and the cycle continues...Violence really solves nothing.
They did. <a href='http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/14036_school.html' target='_blank'>Read this</a>. They saved hundreds of people so far, there aren't actually many civilian deaths.
2) "It's just death, get over it"? Where do you get off saying this? Sure, I know from a "logical" standpoint, but i'd be interested in seeing what actual experience you had in the matter. Has your mother died yet? Were you there? What about your child - has he/she been brutally murdered? Please share your stories. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Friend died last year, and my grandad died ten years ago. I never went to either funeral.
They did. <a href='http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/14036_school.html' target='_blank'>Read this</a>. They saved hundreds of people so far, there aren't actually many civilian deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm notice how other sources are still reporting on this attack and are now saying
"almost all the hostages were killed. Over 300 deaths."
Even President Putin says they screwed up.
Others report that the counter terrorist team was not prepaired and messed the operation up.
The only sources I see saying that there arent that many deaths are Russian ones, or Russian run sources printed in English.
Remember, the US isnt the only country in the world that tries to censor info going to its citizens.
Russia has been going through a lot lately.... two airliners, now this. Moscow seems quiet, I wonder what's going through their minds right now, and if they're going to respond this time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 4 2004, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 4 2004, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I simply can't understand things like this. This does nothing but demonise the Chechen fighters and hurts their cause tremendously. Similarly to the PLO blowing up civilian buses.
The Chechans, like the Palestinians, most likely do have legitimate grievences. But people simply won't support them when they resort to tactics like this. Putin was unlikely to back down even if the terrorists started blowing up children, and seeing as they did all it does is steel the resolve of Russia to keep fighting. Putin can claim, with no small measure of justification, that he's fighting terrorists, not freedom fighters. And the world will, for the most part, agree with him.
The same goes for the PLO. Regardless of what Israel does to the West Bank, the world doesn't react much because Palestinan groups continue to target civilians.
These people have certainly demonstrated that they are willing to die for their cause, but they're going about it the wrong way. India overthrew a massive global empire through non-violent protest; why can't the Chechans and Palestinians learn from history. The minute CNN shows Russian MiGs firebombing crowds of passive-resisting civilians, or Israeli tanks crushing peaceful protesters, world opinion will swing directly in favour of the peaceful side. The opinion of the world matters a great deal these days, but all these groups seem to understand is violence. In both cases, trying to use military force to defeat an enemy vastly better equipped than you just makes no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hit the nail on the head.
<span style='color:orange'>off-topic line of post removed</span>
I heard reports that a lot of the terrorists managed to flee the school grounds and hole up in nearby buildings. I also heard that the terrorists initiated the battle. Both of which suggest that the counterterrorism force didn't know what it was doing. Why the <i>hell</i> didn't they have all the exits covered? Why couldn't they maintain control over the situation, attacking on their terms?
They should have asked for help from a foreign counterterrorist unit (something that is not without precedent). Not that they would have, of course...
Look at it this way, at least it's not as retarded as disregarding massive cruelty, disease, hunger and poverty over large portions of the globe just to shed some crocodile tears for the suffering of a mere few humans that happened to get some media coverage which is pretty much sums up the behavior of most people.
Look at it this way, at least it's not as retarded as disregarding massive cruelty, disease, hunger and poverty over large portions of the globe just to shed some crocodile tears for the suffering of a mere few humans that happened to get some media coverage which is pretty much sums up the behavior of most people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still retarded.
<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>**** :'(</span>