Observations About The Game...
Grail
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7233Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7233Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Mostly from a Resource point of view.</div> Little background first, I have played MANY games, BOTH sides of the field. Both before and after the patch, so I feel I have a fair cross experience of what is going on. I am by no means an expert in either though.
I'm going to break this down into a couple sections covering a few things, so please bare with me.
1) I am in favor of the changes to the following: Turret factory required for turrets to work, Fade ranged upgrade to damage, team balancing (needs a bit more work though). I am NOT in favor of the RP cost and time changes made to the two different teams, nor do I like the seemingly godlike lifespan of the fades now.
2) This is for all you individuals that play aliens and have not tried the marines, let alone being commander. I want to bring a few numbers to the table so that you guys can get a good idea what is going on.
-- In order to get JUST the machines in place to make the seige cannon and NOT counting the RP/time needed for each cannon is 65 RP and 112 Seconds
-- In order to do the same as above, but for Heavy Machine Guns it takes 75 RP and 192 seconds (20 seconds added in the patch). Again, without the cost of EACH gun factored in.
-- In order to do the same as above, but with Heavy Armor it takes 145 RP and 152 Seconds
The <b>FASTEST</b> route to these three abilities <b>WITHOUT</b> the actual items (Cannons, HA, HMG) is 220 RP and 332 Seconds to build. I am going to estimate with four marines that the total time needed would be around 80-120 seconds (I do not have access to hard numbers for time reduction of addition workers).
On top of this, marines are suppose to be doing this while expanding, building turrets AND defending the base from skulk rushes. In case those that play mainly the Aliens didn't know, Marines start with 100 RP regardless of the size of the team. Marines cannot and do not produce 120 RP in under 120 seconds at the beginning of the match.
-- The standard setup I have seen for most base camps is this; 2x Infantry Portals, Armory, Turret Factory and 4x Turrets to act as defense for the first few minutes of the game. Total cost: 151 RP and 114 Seconds + time of turret assembly.
-- Resource Towers Cost the same and take as much time for both side, so this is not really a factor.
3) Defensive and Offensive differences between the two teams: Aliens create 3 Defensive Chambers at 14 RP a peice ( or 42 RP total ) and this gets them maxed armor. For the marines its takes 110 RP to get the same level of Defensive capabilites. For the Offensive abilites (ie +30% damage for the marines, Aliens don't need upgrade <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) takes 0 RP for the Aliens and 110 RP for the Marines. I do not know the total time required to upgrade both defense and offense given that I'm not in game and the official docs do not have the statistics so I will best guess and say its around 100-130 seconds per upgrade path.
In my opinion the only advantages tha the Marines had before the patch were knowledge of the map (through the commander) and Numbers due to no team balancing (ie. 12 vs 5). I have played both teams and found that before the patch the marines were winning alot, due to Alien players not knowing the map and team abilities (ie how to be a "good" alien). After the patch the Aliens are no longer suffering from these shortcomings and got some "Power" increases. Marines on the otherhand have had their "power" reduced and have gained nothing but limitations from the patch. Who ever said that this is like any other RTS is correct, it is about speed of deployment and resource gathering. Unfortunatly the marines have just lost out several fold with this last patch. Once due to cost increases and effectiveness decreases in weapons, and Aliens gained large amounts due to just the opposite ( cost and time decreases, combat effectiveness increases). In this game EVERY second counts as much as every RP.
I have not written this from the "Marine" point of view or the "Alien" point of view. I have in fact played slightly more games as an Alien. I am posting this as a way to show people that it is not always as simple as "You just have to work as a team" or "Have you never heard of a Siege Cannon?!?". I personally think the patch pushed the balance more out of sync then it was before. My advise to the Devs, make the changes small.... VERY small... Even though these changes look small on the outside, as we have seen in the vast number of posts made, they have a HUGE effect on the play and therefore enjoyment of the game.
Enough rambling I guess... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Grail
I'm going to break this down into a couple sections covering a few things, so please bare with me.
1) I am in favor of the changes to the following: Turret factory required for turrets to work, Fade ranged upgrade to damage, team balancing (needs a bit more work though). I am NOT in favor of the RP cost and time changes made to the two different teams, nor do I like the seemingly godlike lifespan of the fades now.
2) This is for all you individuals that play aliens and have not tried the marines, let alone being commander. I want to bring a few numbers to the table so that you guys can get a good idea what is going on.
-- In order to get JUST the machines in place to make the seige cannon and NOT counting the RP/time needed for each cannon is 65 RP and 112 Seconds
-- In order to do the same as above, but for Heavy Machine Guns it takes 75 RP and 192 seconds (20 seconds added in the patch). Again, without the cost of EACH gun factored in.
-- In order to do the same as above, but with Heavy Armor it takes 145 RP and 152 Seconds
The <b>FASTEST</b> route to these three abilities <b>WITHOUT</b> the actual items (Cannons, HA, HMG) is 220 RP and 332 Seconds to build. I am going to estimate with four marines that the total time needed would be around 80-120 seconds (I do not have access to hard numbers for time reduction of addition workers).
On top of this, marines are suppose to be doing this while expanding, building turrets AND defending the base from skulk rushes. In case those that play mainly the Aliens didn't know, Marines start with 100 RP regardless of the size of the team. Marines cannot and do not produce 120 RP in under 120 seconds at the beginning of the match.
-- The standard setup I have seen for most base camps is this; 2x Infantry Portals, Armory, Turret Factory and 4x Turrets to act as defense for the first few minutes of the game. Total cost: 151 RP and 114 Seconds + time of turret assembly.
-- Resource Towers Cost the same and take as much time for both side, so this is not really a factor.
3) Defensive and Offensive differences between the two teams: Aliens create 3 Defensive Chambers at 14 RP a peice ( or 42 RP total ) and this gets them maxed armor. For the marines its takes 110 RP to get the same level of Defensive capabilites. For the Offensive abilites (ie +30% damage for the marines, Aliens don't need upgrade <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) takes 0 RP for the Aliens and 110 RP for the Marines. I do not know the total time required to upgrade both defense and offense given that I'm not in game and the official docs do not have the statistics so I will best guess and say its around 100-130 seconds per upgrade path.
In my opinion the only advantages tha the Marines had before the patch were knowledge of the map (through the commander) and Numbers due to no team balancing (ie. 12 vs 5). I have played both teams and found that before the patch the marines were winning alot, due to Alien players not knowing the map and team abilities (ie how to be a "good" alien). After the patch the Aliens are no longer suffering from these shortcomings and got some "Power" increases. Marines on the otherhand have had their "power" reduced and have gained nothing but limitations from the patch. Who ever said that this is like any other RTS is correct, it is about speed of deployment and resource gathering. Unfortunatly the marines have just lost out several fold with this last patch. Once due to cost increases and effectiveness decreases in weapons, and Aliens gained large amounts due to just the opposite ( cost and time decreases, combat effectiveness increases). In this game EVERY second counts as much as every RP.
I have not written this from the "Marine" point of view or the "Alien" point of view. I have in fact played slightly more games as an Alien. I am posting this as a way to show people that it is not always as simple as "You just have to work as a team" or "Have you never heard of a Siege Cannon?!?". I personally think the patch pushed the balance more out of sync then it was before. My advise to the Devs, make the changes small.... VERY small... Even though these changes look small on the outside, as we have seen in the vast number of posts made, they have a HUGE effect on the play and therefore enjoyment of the game.
Enough rambling I guess... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Grail
Comments
Aliens build SLOOW unless they managed to lock down a significient majority of the resources. I've seen marines dominate games where they managed to lock down a total of 3 resource nodes and were up against the full 3 hives. Heck, I've seen marines bounce back from losing all but one resource nodes by finding a way to overtake and turret off an alien hive. Here you are telling me that Marines have a economical disadvantage? WTF?
The reason siege turrets bother me is less for economical reasons and more because they have such an overpowering tactical advantage. I mean, think about it, it's a weapon that can shoot through walls and do massive damage to structures a formidable distance away. When you consider the perspective the commander has on the map you may realize it's even worse than most think. All a commander has to do is ping a location to find some enemy structures and plop down a siege turret on an undefended place behind a wall. Goodbye alien structures. If the aliens try to retaliate they usually do it in the face of a sentry turret array.
You want to talk about defencive advantages of each side, how about why is it that lines of marine turrets keep the aliens repulsed for a majority of the game when even an unequipped marine with a starting rifle can take down an alien offencive chamber (assuming no defencive chamber backup) with a single clip?! If marine sentry turrets are more expencive, and they are, it's for a damn good reason: alien defences are not nearly as much of a match for marine firepower as the marine turrets are a match for aliens.
How about how Aliens require holding three seperate parts of the map to reach full power while marines can lock down only one location to get their full arsenal at their disposal? Yes, holding some resource positions would be neccessary to get enough income to fund the marines, but no less so than aliens here.
The last patch leveled the playing field, and if you look at the patch message it didn't do THAT MUCH to the balance. The marines don't need more buffing - they're fine. I've seen pleanty of marine victorys since the patch - yes, not as much as before the patch, and that's a good thing, because they used to win 80% of the time before. As far as I'm concerned there's only two problems, and they involve yet more Marine nerfing:
* Siege turrets are too easy to exploit with no effective alien countermeasure.
* Aliens with one hive have no good way to bounce back against sentry turrets cornering them or blocking off their other two hives.
In the matches Aliens do win, it's usually because the marines and/or their commander were clueless and the Aliens knew what they were doing and were able to smack down any clumsy attempts to bring those formidable weapons to bear before they came into fruition.
I'm sorry your having issues with the tactical side of the Siege cannon, but guess what I didn't post about tactics, I posted about numbers and how they impact the marines and a comparison to aliens
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You want to talk about defencive advantages of each side, how about why is it that lines of marine turrets keep the aliens repulsed for a majority of the game when even an unequipped marine with a starting rifle can take down an alien offencive chamber (assuming no defencive chamber backup) with a single clip?! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine you want to talk about this... How often have you seen and/or built a SINGLE offensive turret with NO redundancy or backup (defensive chamber)? It NEVER happens. It is usally 2 defensive and 3 offensive in a standard cluster, and most alien players know this and use this as a standard. But again, since we seem to be talking tactics and not costs of deployment. I have and on multiple times taken out a turret factories and 4+ turrets with a single skulk. Is this more or less "fair" that a single marine with an lmg can take out an offensive turret?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The last patch leveled the playing field, and if you look at the patch message it didn't do THAT MUCH to the balance. The marines don't need more buffing - they're fine. I've seen pleanty of marine victorys since the patch - yes, not as much as before the patch, and that's a good thing, because they used to win 80% of the time before.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, we disagree about the patch leveling of the playing field. I didn't say that it changed much did I? I DID say that a small change had huge effects. Yes, I will agree that marines were winning a lot pre-patch, but as most of the posts on this board will reflect, they are lucky to win 20% now. And like I have stated in the past, the biggest shortcomings the alien team had before this patch was the lack of knowledge about the maps and the team abilities. Both of which are now no longer a valid shortcoming. The patch changed the balance as I DID say before, I just believe that it changed it TOO much.
This is a RTS/FPS game. Both the RTS and FPS <b>REQUIRE</b> that there are equal strengths and weaknesses. You don't like the siege cannon, I don't like defensive chambers. You don't like HMGs, I don't like Onos. For every point you come up with that you don't like with marines I will be able to counter with a dislike about aliens, this in a sense is a great balance. But what is not in balance is the ease at which the alien team wins over the marines.
Now before you go into "well if you had a decent player/commander" the sword is two edged, which makes me wonder how many of these recent marine wins are due to "stupid" alien teams (generalized, not individuals). I don't have to fight half as hard on the alien side as I do when I'm on the marine side. Like I said, I recently play more games as an alien then a marine, so don't think I am just arguing for the home team.
The purpose of my post was this: point out to those who may not understand the marine "economy" that well some of the issues they face. I see WAY to many posts with comments that say to me the person posting has no grasp of what is required and certainly has never been a commander for any length of period.
I would also like to ask people to stop looking at the changes from an Alien or Marine point of view, but as a GAME balance view. I believe if some of you were to change your view you might now fight so hard to "nerf" the other team. Also I don't believe I once asked for the marines to become more powerful.
-Grail