About Unchained Servers
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Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">(or rather the lack thereof)</div> Look, I know you consider it too overpowering for the aliens. While I partly want to argue that it isn't because of it being overpowered as much as the aliens actually being a desirable team for the more skilled people, now that you can play around more(Im talking about aliens getting stacked), my primary concern is that anyone cares that the aliens get slightly overpowered.
Everyone hates losing as aliens, right? Running around, getting shot by motiontracking marines who have no dice with you using silence. Or worse, the end-game "spawncamp" while the hive is being shredded by 30 HMGs that are really just pointing in it's general direction, because the skulks are much more fun to shoot.
Meanwhile, losing as marines can, and often <i>is</i> fun. In it's own masochistic(sp?) way. Countless times have I run down the ramp leading out of the base, screaming like tarzan in my mind, pretending to be rambo with my HMG(and promptly got devoured).
Now, unchaining doesn't make marines win like 30% of the time or less instead of 50-60%(I have no clue about the actual stats), but rather, 45% or so - depending on how many players are regulars. Or otherwise skillful.
Some server admins dislike the fact that marines are losing more than they are winning on unchained servers, so they don't want to install it on their own server(This is not counting the servers that don't use any plugins in any case). To them I say:
Who cares? Let marines lose a bit more than usual, nobody is going to commit suicide, and all other players are going to be happy for the suddenly less rigid game.
Besides, if you find that sensories are too spammable, you can get the plugin that makes them cost 15 res, and DCs 12. This is in the Asylum server, and not too long ago I saw aliens lose 3 times in a row regardless of unchained or not.
Sure, superduper-clan-style aliens with extreme organization capabilities might totally overpower any marine team, but seriously, that only happens in clan matches, and possibly PUGs. And if some random pubbers can get an equal or near-equal level of organization... Well, don't they deserve to have a bigger chance than if they were all just "Ill save for fade""Ill save for fade""Ill save for onos""someoen make DCs im saving for fade" like you usually encounter?
<b>Of course, if you think your server is just fine, without any stacking in the marine team at all, then sure, it's your server after all. This is just the facts. </b>
Aliens do not ever have fun losing, marines usually <u>do</u> have fun. Therefore, marines losing more often than aliens would be the logical way to let something unbalance the game.
Please, think of the players!
Everyone hates losing as aliens, right? Running around, getting shot by motiontracking marines who have no dice with you using silence. Or worse, the end-game "spawncamp" while the hive is being shredded by 30 HMGs that are really just pointing in it's general direction, because the skulks are much more fun to shoot.
Meanwhile, losing as marines can, and often <i>is</i> fun. In it's own masochistic(sp?) way. Countless times have I run down the ramp leading out of the base, screaming like tarzan in my mind, pretending to be rambo with my HMG(and promptly got devoured).
Now, unchaining doesn't make marines win like 30% of the time or less instead of 50-60%(I have no clue about the actual stats), but rather, 45% or so - depending on how many players are regulars. Or otherwise skillful.
Some server admins dislike the fact that marines are losing more than they are winning on unchained servers, so they don't want to install it on their own server(This is not counting the servers that don't use any plugins in any case). To them I say:
Who cares? Let marines lose a bit more than usual, nobody is going to commit suicide, and all other players are going to be happy for the suddenly less rigid game.
Besides, if you find that sensories are too spammable, you can get the plugin that makes them cost 15 res, and DCs 12. This is in the Asylum server, and not too long ago I saw aliens lose 3 times in a row regardless of unchained or not.
Sure, superduper-clan-style aliens with extreme organization capabilities might totally overpower any marine team, but seriously, that only happens in clan matches, and possibly PUGs. And if some random pubbers can get an equal or near-equal level of organization... Well, don't they deserve to have a bigger chance than if they were all just "Ill save for fade""Ill save for fade""Ill save for onos""someoen make DCs im saving for fade" like you usually encounter?
<b>Of course, if you think your server is just fine, without any stacking in the marine team at all, then sure, it's your server after all. This is just the facts. </b>
Aliens do not ever have fun losing, marines usually <u>do</u> have fun. Therefore, marines losing more often than aliens would be the logical way to let something unbalance the game.
Please, think of the players!
Comments
Good luck with your argument.
A more likely ratio of unchained servers would be 100 of these at any given time(counting the fact that around half of these servers are Combat mode at that time), rather than the current... 20? 25?
It's just depressing. A plugin with the capacity to make the game fun, without being gimmicky, and less servers use it than the gimmicky plugins, because its "unbalanced".
Anyway, my gesture was sincere: good luck.
You're welcome to enjoy our server whenever there's a slot open.
Be well.
Come and join us...
The effect on game wins was minimal, because by the time you have enough res for even two fully upgraded chambers (say, 3 sense and 3 DC), the marines had upgrades and possibly heavy weapons and the res could be better spent on a hive or fade. If you weren't getting many kills, you were wasting 2-4 res each life to use the upgrades.
But othertimes, a couple skulks who were good with silence, celerity or cloaking could change the tide of the early game. This was the exception (even though many admins are afraid it would be the rule).
The plugin was removed because the owner didn't like it. I played everyday and heard nothing but praise about the new plugin... but the owner, of course, had final say.
*Edit: Also... If you've been with NS for a while, you'll know that the game is horribly unbalanced in the marine favor in Large servers (24+ players). I think this plugin would give aliens the edge they need in those larger games. Each skulk they encounter would have a different ability instead of the current "Oh, they have sensory? build an obs at our locked hive... gg".
Maybe make the marine upgrades a little stronger?
Shouldn't that be easy to do with plugins?
Why use the unchain plugin when you can just play combat?
Everything is the same as without the plugin, except you could drop a strategic SC in, say, the double reource area... or get one movement chamber and Mov Rush the locked down 2nd hive... allowing for some kind of comeback.
It opens your strategic options when in a pinch, but if everything's going smoothly, it doesn't affect anything.
If your gorges decide not to drop res, that doesn't have much to do with the plugin. You will lose until you learn to drop res. It's a good plugin anyhow. I know I wont change anyone's mind. I'm just trying to work up the capitol to start a large server with this plugin myself and stop trying to convince everyone else to install it.
...makes it more like combat
Why use the unchain plugin when you can just play combat? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How? Is it because skulks can actually use the upgrades most suited to them early game without being shunned? Because heaven forbid they can choose an upgrade that isn't redemption, regeneration or carapace.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...less gorges drop rt or 3 chambers of the same kind what makes aliens loose a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not the fault of the plugin. That's the fault of the players not being used to unchained gameplay; either that, or they're crap.
Everything is the same as without the plugin, except you could drop a strategic SC in, say, the double reource area... or get one movement chamber and Mov Rush the locked down 2nd hive... allowing for some kind of comeback.
It opens your strategic options when in a pinch, but if everything's going smoothly, it doesn't affect anything.
If your gorges decide not to drop res, that doesn't have much to do with the plugin. You will lose until you learn to drop res. It's a good plugin anyhow. I know I wont change anyone's mind. I'm just trying to work up the capitol to start a large server with this plugin myself and stop trying to convince everyone else to install it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is- unchained chamber is a great idea.
The problem is: Your dealing with human beings.
Why use the unchain plugin when you can just play combat? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you like to participate in the argument, or just make generalizations? Unchained chambers doesn't make NS like Combat in the slightest. Not even close. The only similarity at all is the fact that you can actually choose your own upgrade if your team has the chambers for it. This combined with actually being able to use sensories only adds strategy and flexibility to the alien team, not to mention making them fun again.
The reason gorges waste res on chambers and make the team lose is because they aren't used to the plugin. It's no different than gorges who are new to the game dropping sensories first, or saving for Onos, or whatever else. That problem goes away on servers that have been using the plugin for a while.
I actually played twice on an unchained server and it was far more fun then the regular "DMS or kick" order.
But i think it should be pub only, clan play would get very imbalanced.
Some have concluded that early sensory was really one of the biggest problem and aliens could dominate early game with 1 to 2 strategically placed sensory chambers . The counter (pack travel + scans) was really too slow a pace to expand. I also think most of the COMMS forgot how to counter sensory in the early part of the game because the aliens could always drop any chamber for higher life forms at any time.
Others point out that focus fades at two hives really wreak havok. You have Hit&Run attacks with twice damage and you still don't lack movement chambers for defending hive locations.
For the marines, it can be quite expensive. The COMM ends up buying an early OBS and later upgrades. Any TF / PG / Seige station pretty much requires an OBS. Sneak PG rushes, without careful scans are often much harder to make successful.
We're at the point of discussion, on the server, of removing it completely or adjusting the chamber costs to help balance out early sensory. We'll likely try the cost change before removing it completely.
My feelings are pretty much like everyone elses that "kinda" like unchained. One gorge can't ruin the game for others and it was fun to try. Without further restrictions (maybe more than just chamber costs), it's a bit too overpowering for an experienced alien team.
@Ollj : I thought you were supportive of getting rid of the DMS build order? Or have they somehow brainwashed you?
On a more serious note, rather than making the chambers of different hard-coded prices, perhaps the better method, which I have just devised on the spot, is to keep using the old Hive Chamberlock system, but rather than being prohibited from building unsupported chambers, they could simply cost more until they are supported? What I mean is, well, look at this example: Say the first chamber dropped is a Sensory. Henceforth, while the first Hive lives, Sensory Chambers cost 10 resources. Until a second Hive is dropped, the other chambers cost slightly more; say, 13. Then, when the second Hive finishes building, all of them will go back to 10 until a second Chamber is dropped - for the sake of the example, let's say Defence. Then, Defence and Sensory Chambers would cost 10 resources, while Movement, having been again denied a supporting Hive, would revert to costing 13. As it happens, the Marines haven't been thinking about these details, and have instead decided to concentrate on sieging the first Hive, which they do successfully. Thus, the Hive supporting Sensory Chambers would be destroyed, so they would again cost 13 resources.
I should probably transfer that to the thread in Ideas and Suggestions or Public Beta Discussion, but my point of posting it here is that the balance issues raised are already minimal, and I believe that with easily devised and implemented changes like these, even those problems could be eradicated.
Like all ideas, the theory of Unchained Chambers needs some time and testing to be balanced fully. To those who cry imbalanced I say: Give it a chance.
With unchained, sof can be used anytime...
I'm not crasy about unchained but...
The whole problem with the alien side of the game is that they must be limited by both hives and resources, while marines are limited solely by resources. When increasing or decreasing the importance hives vs resources one must think of the game as being on a spectrum, with hives being useless on one end, and hives being all important on the other. 1.0 will provide us with a good example of the hives being all important. There the game was decide almost totally by if the aliens could get a second hive before the marines could get a two hive lock down. An example of the other end of the spectrum is the unchained plug in, where hives add only spawn points, attacks, number of upgrades and armor. <i>(Yes, I know that it isn't anywhere as far out as 1.0 but it is an example)</i>
The problem with reducing the importance on the hives, is that doing so fails to reward the marines. If the marines are skillful enough to take and hold two alien friendly rooms that are much closer to the alien spawn then their own I think they deserve a large advantage over the aliens. Just as I believe if the aliens are able to take and hold their two other hive rooms that they deserve to have a large advantage over the marines.
<b>So, before you declare yourself in support or against the unchained plug in, first ask yourself "Do I think hives are too important right now?"</b>
The whole problem with the alien side of the game is that they must be limited by both hives and resources, while marines are limited solely by resources. When increasing or decreasing the importance hives vs resources one must think of the game as being on a spectrum, with hives being useless on one end, and hives being all important on the other. 1.0 will provide us with a good example of the hives being all important. There the game was decide almost totally by if the aliens could get a second hive before the marines could get a two hive lock down. An example of the other end of the spectrum is the unchained plug in, where hives add only spawn points, attacks, number of upgrades and armor.
The problem with reducing the importance on the hives, is that doing so fails to reward the marines. If the marines are skillful enough to take and hold two alien friendly rooms that are much closer to the alien spawn then their own I think they deserve a large advantage over the aliens. Just as I believe if the aliens are able to take and hold their two other hive rooms that they deserve to have a large advantage over the marines.
<b>So, before you declare yourself in support or against the unchained plug in, first ask yourself "Do I think hives are too important right now?"</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Thank you for informing me that I'm short-sighted for disagreeing with you.
2) <b><i>Only</i></b> another spawn point, a Movement Chamber teleport location, an extra ability, an extra upgrade slot, <i>and</i> an armour buff? <b><i><u>Only?!</u></i></b>
3) Actually, as the Hive would retain most of its benefits, it'd still be very rewarding for the Marines indeed.
4) Thank you again for telling me that I can't see my own point, because it isn't the point with which you agree. After all, your opinion is indeed worth so much more than everyone else's.
And if for some reason you think midgame 1 Hive aliens are overpowered atm, you might want to stop pointing the business end of the LMG at yourself and use it the way it was meant to.
In other words, hives still retain almost all of their original importance and hive 2 is still crucial to the aliens for all the same reasons. I hardly consider that "the other end of the spectrum." Have you played on an unchained server? Aliens are still highly dependent on reaching hive 2, for all the reasons you were kind enough to list for us. You know, trivial stuff like Leap, Bile Bomb, Umbra, Metabolize and Stomp.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because we all know these abilities are useless, and not worth getting... <img src='http://www.stateofchaos.net/forums/images/smiles/no.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Let's face it. With the unchained plugin, the aliens have a better chance at surviving with just one hive, because they don't need to 2nd and 3rd hive, not to mention Leap, Bilebomb, Umbra and Metabolize, right?
I think you need to think out your post clearly next time Mach. The aliens still need the 2nd and 3rd hives because without them, they're pretty much screwed when the heavy weapons roll in. Heck, I doubt a 1 hive Onos would be able to stand up against a Lvl 0 HMG relying solely on Regen withput Celerity, or not having Stomp.
In fact, I almost exclusively play unchained nowadays. I experienced no real imbalance or tendencies towards aliens winning more games than marines, as long as there were players which are familiar with the plugin.
The game balances itself pretty good as soon as the players adapt to the new circumstances.
It is, however considerably more fun both as aliens and as marine.
Thats true. I love playing marine on unchained servers, because its more thrilling. You simply cannot predict what happens to you.
Also, it definately cuts down on marine ninjas and sneaky phasegaterushes because of early sensories, which is a good thing IMHO.
As aliens, it adds whole new levels of tactical possibilities, and it's especially big fun for gorges, which are more likely to be involved in the teams progress.
The gorges responsibilities tend to be more than just capping res and build dcs in the first 2 minutes, then save for hive.
I also experienced more comunication between the team and the gorges(may depend on the server however) as the team more actively uses the chambers that are available.
I recommend you to play it for some time and get used to it. We need more unchained servers, so if you are running an NS server, please, I beg you, give it a shot!
And don't listen to rambo rines leaving the server crying "OMG teh imballance! suxxors!11"
They are usually cry because they got eaten by cloakers repetedly. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The problem is: Your dealing with human beings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>One of these sentences invalidates the other! Also, arbitrary judgement calls are funny.
Oh yeah. Umm. Unchained chamber servers are another sign that the gamers think they can make a better game than the devs. Awesome job.</span>
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->