Making +jump And Pistol Atmoatic Is Bad.
Forlorn
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">Why's that you ask?</div> <u><i>This is not a scripting debate</i></u><b>.</b>
It has come to my attention that both the +jump command and pistol are rumored to be automatic, in order to reduce the dependancy upon scripts that these two commands have right now. However, this is flawed and leads into other problems and therefore is a bad solution.
Basically the command +3jumps (or +5jumps, or +7jumps or whatever) still cannnot compare to any autojump command. Furthermore, no pistol script cannot replicate an auto pistol. If the pistol was automatic, or the +jump command automatic, it would kill the need for scripts in this situation, but at the expense of making the pistol better than it is now as well as making bhop easier than it currently is now. The problems that break down with each of these options:
<b>Auto Jump</b>
- No need for timing whatsoever
- Can bhop up and down the steepest of slopes, currently as a fast moving skulk I cannot do this with the fastest of keystrokes on a +5jumps script (I use +3jumps by default). I can bhop down slopes pretty easily though, but still requires a good sense of how to move to do it correctly.
- Can bhop through vents, going through small vents at extreamlly fast speeds (read: Do you really want this? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<b>Auto Pistol</b>
- No pistol script makes your pistol automatic. This is a boost as all you have to do is trace your target, like an LMG.
- Ruin's diversity between the pistol and LMG, one is semi-automatic and the other is automatic... now marines have no semi-automatic weapon.
<i>Alternate solutions which are much better</i>
<b>Quake Style Jumping</b>
- In quake, everyone could figure out bhop easily, no one complained about it and it was (still is) reguarded as only a skill.
- The reason it was a skill is simply because in order to jump, you just hit the +jump key. Simple.
- To jump again upon landing on the ground as quickly as possible, you just hit the +jump key, mid air, and upon touching the ground another jump would be automatically executed.
- You would not be able to bhop through small vents or up steep slopes, unless you could mash your jump key extreamlly quickly. I also doubt any human hands could keep it up for long.
<b>Double Shot Pistol</b>
- Instead of an automatic pistol, just do what the currently most popular pistol script does at the moment.
- Press it very quickly, and it fires only one shot. Press any slower than that, and it fires two shots. This allows players a semi-automatic pistol that does not operate like an LMG yet can reach it's cap very easily.
- How the script works:
alias +pistol "+attack"
alias -pistol "-attack; wait; +attack; wait; -attack"
All this does is use +attack when you press it once, and +attack upon the release of the button. Why this only fires one shot if you fire the pistol fast enough is because the second +attack command will not work due to the cap of the pistol's ROF.
This is easy enough for most players to figure out and yet keeps the pistol original and does not give it any boosts from the current state it is now.
Both of these solutions are much more unique than to simply make +jump and the pistol automatic. Making +jump and the pistol automatic changes the game, probably for the worse I'm guessing.
Where as my listed solutions do not, and yet eliminates any need for the script that was nessesary in the first place to produce it.
It has come to my attention that both the +jump command and pistol are rumored to be automatic, in order to reduce the dependancy upon scripts that these two commands have right now. However, this is flawed and leads into other problems and therefore is a bad solution.
Basically the command +3jumps (or +5jumps, or +7jumps or whatever) still cannnot compare to any autojump command. Furthermore, no pistol script cannot replicate an auto pistol. If the pistol was automatic, or the +jump command automatic, it would kill the need for scripts in this situation, but at the expense of making the pistol better than it is now as well as making bhop easier than it currently is now. The problems that break down with each of these options:
<b>Auto Jump</b>
- No need for timing whatsoever
- Can bhop up and down the steepest of slopes, currently as a fast moving skulk I cannot do this with the fastest of keystrokes on a +5jumps script (I use +3jumps by default). I can bhop down slopes pretty easily though, but still requires a good sense of how to move to do it correctly.
- Can bhop through vents, going through small vents at extreamlly fast speeds (read: Do you really want this? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<b>Auto Pistol</b>
- No pistol script makes your pistol automatic. This is a boost as all you have to do is trace your target, like an LMG.
- Ruin's diversity between the pistol and LMG, one is semi-automatic and the other is automatic... now marines have no semi-automatic weapon.
<i>Alternate solutions which are much better</i>
<b>Quake Style Jumping</b>
- In quake, everyone could figure out bhop easily, no one complained about it and it was (still is) reguarded as only a skill.
- The reason it was a skill is simply because in order to jump, you just hit the +jump key. Simple.
- To jump again upon landing on the ground as quickly as possible, you just hit the +jump key, mid air, and upon touching the ground another jump would be automatically executed.
- You would not be able to bhop through small vents or up steep slopes, unless you could mash your jump key extreamlly quickly. I also doubt any human hands could keep it up for long.
<b>Double Shot Pistol</b>
- Instead of an automatic pistol, just do what the currently most popular pistol script does at the moment.
- Press it very quickly, and it fires only one shot. Press any slower than that, and it fires two shots. This allows players a semi-automatic pistol that does not operate like an LMG yet can reach it's cap very easily.
- How the script works:
alias +pistol "+attack"
alias -pistol "-attack; wait; +attack; wait; -attack"
All this does is use +attack when you press it once, and +attack upon the release of the button. Why this only fires one shot if you fire the pistol fast enough is because the second +attack command will not work due to the cap of the pistol's ROF.
This is easy enough for most players to figure out and yet keeps the pistol original and does not give it any boosts from the current state it is now.
Both of these solutions are much more unique than to simply make +jump and the pistol automatic. Making +jump and the pistol automatic changes the game, probably for the worse I'm guessing.
Where as my listed solutions do not, and yet eliminates any need for the script that was nessesary in the first place to produce it.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Auto pistol seems like a bad idea. Just lower the ROF to somewhere slightly above what the average human can do manually.
Agreed on both points. Personally I would like to see more of quakes physics making their way into ns for the aliens (trimping, double jumps) but I can't see that happening just yet <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, I dont see why we should rewards noobs who can hold forwards and spaz jump.. it is not a skilled manouver and they shouldnt gain speed for doing something that anybody playing the game for the first time can do. Bunnyhopping isnt *that* hard to master, and with the quake-jumping in place that makes it even easier for new players to learn.
If you want to add a 2nd type of bunnyhop for noobs, implement a quake3 style bunnyhop acceleration (can accelerate, but not turn corners), so if the newbies want to keep their speed they will have to start learning to strafe. The quake 3 mod "CPMA" has a brilliant mix of half-lifes air movement+acceleration, and implements quake 3's straight-line acceleration too which, while being noob-friendly, gives advanced players the option to combine both bunnyhopping methods to their advantage.
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Straight line jumping can only give you about a 5-10% speed bonus. I'm for anything that can get more people to bhop. It's really annoying getting behind some newbie on the early rush that is running in a zigzag for no reason and you can't get around them when you are bhopping.
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Straight line jumping can only give you about a 5-10% speed bonus. I'm for anything that can get more people to bhop. It's really annoying getting behind some newbie on the early rush that is running in a zigzag for no reason and you can't get around them when you are bhopping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you gonna name what's wrong with quake style jumping or even possibly tell me why an auto jump is better than quake style jumping, or just state why auto jump can be good?
Quake style jumping was fine back in the day.
In midair, you press and release jump, then when you land you jump again.
or
In midair, you press and hold jump, then when you land you jump again, yet continuing to hold jump for another jump without a release will not jump a second time.
I prefer the second version.
And as for pistol, I like it as it already is.
Umm not to burst anyones bubble. But a man with a revolver with 6 shots, shot AND reloaded all 12 bullets in 4.3 seconds I belive it was. Truely amazing. So It shall be awsome if they do what you say ^.^
Umm not to burst anyones bubble. But a man with a revolver with 6 shots, shot AND reloaded all 12 bullets in 4.3 seconds I belive it was. Truely amazing. So It shall be awsome if they do what you say ^.^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok one time I saw a guy that could fly and he shot lasers and mind bullets.
They should put that in the game.
Umm not to burst anyones bubble. But a man with a revolver with 6 shots, shot AND reloaded all 12 bullets in 4.3 seconds I belive it was. Truely amazing. So It shall be awsome if they do what you say ^.^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but how accurate were the shots?
I agree with you on the jumping idea, pretty much. Can't say I ever played Quake so maybe I'm misunderstanding, but do you mean:
In midair, you press and release jump, then when you land you jump again.
or
In midair, you press and hold jump, then when you land you jump again, yet continuing to hold jump for another jump without a release will not jump a second time.
I prefer the second version.
And as for pistol, I like it as it already is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The second version.
Although any form of "help" on the part of bunnyhopping is obviously going to result in the loss of skill required to play aliens effectively (which makes the game a whole lot less interesting when it comes to playing at any level other than pub) i agree quake style hopping would still be a viable way of going about it. That is if people who cant bunny hop actualy bother to try and learn how to do it without the use of a script and stop moaning.
*Yes this is the first time i felt it nessecary to post on the boards i think if _special type bunny hopping is made standard it will ruin the game*
Umm not to burst anyones bubble. But a man with a revolver with 6 shots, shot AND reloaded all 12 bullets in 4.3 seconds I belive it was. Truely amazing. So It shall be awsome if they do what you say ^.^ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but how accurate were the shots? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was 6 shots fired, a reload with a speedloader, and another six shots in 2.99 seconds. All shots were on a target I believe to 6-10 inches across at an unknown distance. It was fairly short range though.
I dont know how the rumour started, but I really do not think these will go in, unless Flayra says otherwise.
I strongly disagree with the auto-jump and auto-pistol. Though I will agree that skulks need to be able to move fast for defense, otherwise they will get owned by marines too easily.
It's a lot different than a +3jumps script
It's a lot different than a +3jumps script <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, it's more like a command queue system.
What's the point of having a LMG if your pistol is a more powerful version of it? It just doesn't make sense. Most people can fire as fast without a script, but a script makes my life easier.
Auto-jump is a horrible idea, skulks will be going 100 km an hour through vents, and more problems will occur. The quake idea forlorn suggested is the best apporch in my opinion to fixing the problem.
Don't worry squishy, believe it or not I'm keeping record of everyone who says one of the following:
"...agree... ....Forlorn..."
You are now on the list, sucker
The second version.
Although any form of "help" on the part of bunnyhopping is obviously going to result in the loss of skill required to play aliens effectively (which makes the game a whole lot less interesting when it comes to playing at any level other than pub) i agree quake style hopping would still be a viable way of going about it. That is if people who cant bunny hop actualy bother to try and learn how to do it without the use of a script and stop moaning.
*Yes this is the first time i felt it nessecary to post on the boards i think if _special type bunny hopping is made standard it will ruin the game* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you dont seem to understand that it IS in the game already (script/ auto buttons).
the real problem is the game is balenced around BH'ing and not every one can BH(most of the time i see one guy in 20 that can BH).
see the problem???
i agree with you Forlorn. not that anyone cares <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with Forlorn, especially regarding the pistol. An automatic pistol is a horrible idea \o/
But since voogru is one of the dev coders now, I think we can safely say that the chances of this going in is about the same as the onos getting doubled health/armor.
It won't. You can get more speed by wallstrafing through the vents than by jumping up and down.
Something I just thought of about the autojump: If it is perfectly timed, then the marines will be able to bhop again. I've seen people in CS with autojump hooks and they were able to override CS's jump slowdown.
I dont know how the rumour started, but I really do not think these will go in, unless Flayra says otherwise.
I strongly disagree with the auto-jump and auto-pistol. Though I will agree that skulks need to be able to move fast for defense, otherwise they will get owned by marines too easily. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What voog said. There has been little to no discussion of this - in fact, I hadn't even heard of it until today. I highly doubt either feature will make it into NS.
It won't. You can get more speed by wallstrafing through the vents than by jumping up and down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very wrong
EDIT: Narfwak, actually these ideas are in the works and were gaining some popularity, that's why I like to bring attention to them and offer my solutions instead