New Commander In Training
Celiz
Join Date: 2004-06-07 Member: 29171Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-06-07 Member: 29171Members, Constellation
hey, i've been commanding (3 full games, about 5 times where i got ejected <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->) at a 20-25 man server , [NAR] gorge hideout, i've won 1 game and lost 2...i know the basics and pretty much what im doing, im kinda slow and mid to late game i kinda dunno what to do. my BO starts off with ip > armory > obs , i drop the needed Rt's my friends are spamin about, then get another ip and an arms lab, i get armor1 , dmg 1 2 3 , then armor 2 and 3, i get phase tech , then mt...i like to do 2 hive lockdown when i can, i usually get HA bc imo its better for pubs, when i get rich with res, i'll give my wholoe team HA welders and HMG , hopeing they can kill anything in there way, i relax...this is where i mess up, i forget whats goin on and kinda space out, then we lsoe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> anways
what do i do mid to late game, and how can i make myself faster , also...what are important spots to pg and why (cuz i never kno whent o drop one)
hope this isnt too confuseing for ya <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
what do i do mid to late game, and how can i make myself faster , also...what are important spots to pg and why (cuz i never kno whent o drop one)
hope this isnt too confuseing for ya <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
u do everything right early game imo, but its when ur in l8 game... u probebly got ejected because u 1) were tooooo slow to deviler essential items 2) like me, u watch battles and dont med and ammo spam during them....
heres my little tip, go to marks custom server #1 and ask politely if u can practice comming... the server gud (yet it crashes sometimes) and the people are gud, plus all custom maps are basic and always have simple layouts, so ull find it easy to med spam and u can even figure ot where a pg should go (by an elect tf!! ALWAYS! lol)
just keep going for it and you'll get the speed in the end. like he said, try to make use of hotkeys and quick responces to medpacks/ammo/order calls with the ikkle squares on the bottom left and using jump.
if u put everyone in squad 4 at the begining people assume you know what your doing more aswell <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
winning the game takes skill and knowledge.
staying in the CC takes love and psychology xDD
2) You get speed by comming over and over again. Learn the hotkeys, and if they're too uncomfortable to you, switch them. You can change them to any single character key on the keyboard to my knowledge (keys like enter, shift, etc will not work with the way hotkeys are set up for the commander - I wish this would be addressed). Once you learn them, use them a lot. When people ask for a medpack, you should have a medpack on the ground beside them, if not hitting them with it, within a second. The faster the better. Learn to actually predict when someone will need a medpack and drop it the moment they take a bite from a skulk. Watch the minimap constantly, and when you see someone start moving around a room and a red dot appear near them, click that area on the minimap. Often you'll see a skulk is attacking them. Med anytime you see the marine go into the yellow/red. Green is good, that means they have over 75 health, which is where they should stay. Anything lower is dangerous.
3) Phase gates are extensions of your base. Place them somewhere to either prevent alien expansion by there mere presence (at a lockdown) or somewhere that you want to attack hard. A great use for phase gates is to sneak one up near a hive and send marines to attack the hive. Have at least 2 IPs and simply lmg rush the hive down. Gates are weak: protect them with well placed mines or a turret factory with turrets/electrification.
4) Don't get stuck on either the use of turrets, electrification, or hive lockdowns. It's not prudent nor possible to use these in every situation. Turrets and electrification own skulks, but not fades or onos. They also own your resources, because they cost far too much for heavy use. Each turret you drop is an armory, a shotgun, half a lvl1 upgrade, or 2/3's of a resource node. Electrifying a node is equivalent to a lvl2 upgrade, or advancing the armory. Resources are thin, you must ration them effectively. Don't spend 100 res on turrets for marine start, chances are you won't need them and a fade can make them near worthless.
5) Armor2 is more effective than Weapons1 if the marine team seems to have trouble killing skulks. Weapons1 doesn't lower the number of lmg bullets required to kill a skulk, whereas Armor2 is 4 bites vs Armor1's 3 bites. With appropriate medpacking, Armor2 early in the game is hard to counter for aliens until a lerk or a fade appears. Even then Armor2 is still effective, and Weapons1/2/3 should follow. Get phase tech at the same time as Weapons1, and once a phase gate is up somewhere, you should look to start updrading the armory.
6) Be confident in yourself, but not overconfident to the point of being arrogant. Be aware of those around you, and ask for feedback on your commanding when possible. Don't ask any random player, ask those that seem to understand the game. Veterans, Playtesters, NSGuides (Yes they do exist), and some Constellation members will generally give you constructive feedback on your commjob. Obviously some non-icon players are very skilled and can give you some as well, just pick and choose who's critique you take to heart. PubNubBob saying "omg he sucks at comm because he didn't lock down both hives and give me a shotgun" isn't worth your time to listen to. Learn to command not by force ("Everyone get out of base or I recycle the armory") but by grace and confidence. Flow your thoughts from one objective to another, and verbalize those thoughts when needed ("Ok I'm rushing Jetpacks, I need 4 nodes, whoever gets me those nodes gets the first jets and shotties, and whoever covers them gets some too. I need 2 people in base, those people get shotguns in 2 minutes. Everyone else go looking for gorges and resnodes to kill, you get to have fun now." - You'll be amazed how you get 4 resnodes, base built in a reasonable amount of time, and alien nodes get pressured. Confidence and charisma are keys to victory on public servers as commander)
7) You have to find your own niche and your own build order in order to succeed as commander. Discover what you work well with, and learn what the counters to it are for aliens. Learn what counters what in the game, and how worthlessly ineffective some strats are if they're countered quickly. All of this makes you a better, more prepared commander.
Now I shall steal all your secrets strats and be hailed as a KING!
Edited - Ive failed as a starwars junkie, error corrected. gg wyzcrak
1) The icons on the left can be clicked on, centering the map on the player that requested the medpack/ammopack/order. Click on those while selecting a medpack with the other hand using the hotkeys. Once the icon is clicked on, simply drop the item you selected while clicking on the icon.
2) The In-game control settings have an option to bind keys to "go to last" health/ammo/order call. These perform the same function as the icons mentioned above. Simply bind them alongside your hotkeys and hit it as you select a medpack. Most of the time spent dropping a medpack should be in actually dropping it alongside or in front of the player (since in this build you can't drop them on someone's head or near a rt - this may be addressed in the next build).
Usually I just end up clicking on it or being there before they call for it - either by "Soldier under attack" or presence of red dots. Each time I actually need the call to realize someone isn't on 80+ health its a small failure <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
let me restate my problem in easier words, the tech tree, i kno it good enuff to comm but i forget stuff, like "ok guys lets phase here, oh god i forgot hpase tech" then i get the eject , other stuff like "comm drop hmgs we gotta take out hte onos" , my reply "another 2 minutes for armory to finish, jus twait" , then its like EJECT <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->, i just have problem remembering what and when to upgrade
oh and thanks for the other tips , they still helpd <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only key difference between, say, War 3 and NS is that you can't control your units.. unless you work with the same people regularly, chances are they won't listen to orders.
I, myself, am fairly new to comming, but out of the last five games I've commed, I've won the last three. The server I play on has a fairly regular blend between server regulars and pub crawlers.
>> You CAN hotkey your buildings. I typically find this effective for the Observatory for Sensor Sweeps, but for a war3 buff, you should probably also hotkey important structures, like your Arms Lab. Make sure your spacebar is bound to your jump key (in addition to whatever you use to jump with). If someone issues the generic 'Comm, I need...", slap it and you are there.
>> Don't over-extend yourself. Marines don't win well in a war of uncapping/capping RT's (unless you've a blessed team vs a less talented opponent), so if you are having trouble with loosing RT's all over the place, don't spam RT's where the marine can get killed before finishing (A complete waste of res). You need to keep an RT alive for 60 seconds before it pays for itself, which is a long time. Build fewer RT's, but elecrify them in places near your base where your undisciplined, ramboing compadres will most likely run by. I find that having 3 secure RT's is better than having six that are exposed constantly being skulked to destruction (and/or being destroyed before ever being fully built).
>> Don't electrify your TF's. Elecrification is worth either a TF and two turrets (which is economical for you when defending RT's), or three turrets (yet you only get damage of about two). If you really want to secure an area, build a second TF and two extra turrets, rather than Electrify. If you overlap their 'auras', the nearby turrets will continue firing. Remember not to leave blind spots where only a scant few turrets (or no) turrets can shoot, and a fade can sit and bring down the TF.
>> A good upgrading habit I follow is Armor 1, phase tech, grenades/weapons 1, weapons 2, motion tracking, advanced armory, then wing it from there. I do grenades simply because I don't have to hand out grenade launchers to flush out lerks in vents. 'Nades are cheap, GL's aren't. Also helps when taking out chamber clusters.
>> Remember, when possible, set up an Armory near each phase gate or assault outpost. This will save you a TON on med/ammo spam, and you can assure your troops that they can hump the armory AFTER they've phased. As a personal Comm Twist, I like to only deal weaponry at outposts nearest my objective when possible. If res is plentiful, I'll research HA/JP in base, and build a Protolab at the latest outpost to deal metal 'on the go'. This way, your marines are always keeping up where YOU are, just to get their hands on the shottys/HMG/GL/HA/JP.
>> Let them know that you're still practicing, and you will step out if someone else would rather comm. I find I only get ejected if I take the comm chair immediately after the Comm leaves (for whatever reason) or if I hop in immediately and don't issue the "I'll give up my seat if you would rather Comm". This way, only someone who is REALLY confident in the chair will offer to usurp you, and it will be broadcast in chat/mic. The voting system is cowardly, in that anyone can anonymously start it for whatever reason, and people pipe in without a replacement being offered (voting to eject is cheap, taking the chair takes gumption). Ejecting a comm mid-game without a suitable replacement is typically a game loosing scenario, crippling for minutes the key marine strength.
>> ((tip))Remember those armories near phase gates? Use those to drop mines to be placed in sensitive locations.. especially around the phase gate. Four for the gate, two for any nearby RT's/TF's and you should be okay.
>> ((tip)) Comming is a manipulative game in pubs. If you supply weapons and armour in your base, you will have rambos coming out of your earlobes. if this is what you want, fine. If you want your marines to follow orders, don't supply rambos, and build armories at PG locations and give THEM the heavy weaponry on-site. They will look at you wierd when that protolab shows up next to the phase gate, but if they have to phase in order to pick up their HA/HMG, or even a shotty, they will most likely be with everyone else and focusing on that hive.
I'm not understanding why you drop an obs right away, yet you say you don't get anything from it until practically all arms lab ups are done. Either that or you didn't have your order right. If you aren't getting anything from the obs right away, you can probably go ahead and cut that from your starting res BO. Replace it with an arms lab and get your marines armor 1 first. If you are getting the obs to beacon in case of base rush, well... thats sort of ok, but you are probably better off with a pack of mines or two around your structures.
Really, theres only a few things to do as a commander in relation to the aliens. First off, at the beginning of the game, keep getting RTs, and keep getting upgrades. For marines, the quicker you get them, the better for your marines, and less things to worry about later on when you should be focusing elsewhere. While capping rts, keep checking for a second hive going up. Once you know a second hive is going up, advance the armory if you haven't already. Now you need to keep pressuring the hive thats building, and if you can take it down asap. At this point, you need to focus everything you have on that second hive, and only recap nodes as you see fit. But don't change back to capping nodes, if you guys are having trouble at second hive, forget nodes altogether and just keep working on the hive.
-You are probably wasting Res on RT's that are going to get skulked/gorged before they can pay back their cost if you build more than 2-3 'in the field'. Get 2-3 RT's up, electrify them if upgrades are grinding and you have res.
-If a marine is asking for an RT at a place you don't like, or one you ""don't need"", have him move on to hunt for alien RT's. This is a win/win situation where you are saving 15 res, and having someone moving to waste 15 alien res plus income.
-'in the field' doesn't mean Double Res spots or hives.. if you can take a Double and hold it, you now have 6 nodes, and 1 for every hive you take.. this is often more than enough to stock your pawns and you should have ample turret defenses in place to protect them, and a phase gate.
-Spamming RT's only delays your tech work by soaking up res that you don't have to spare early on. Make sure you're on top of upgrades once you have a few Rt's down. Keep your res spent, with a priority on upgrades. RT's die, Weapons1/Armor1, phase tech, and Motion Tracking are immortal. Furthermore, these upgrades begin to rake in Kill-Res, which you get when your men put a scratch on their gun.
-Use equipment to bait bad players to where you want.. I've had a few games where I'd have half my team ramboing in god-knows-where, and I *didn't* want to drop an RT because I knew i'd loose the RT, the marine, and the gun the marine was holding. They then respawn and ask for another gun. Tell them that if they want a gun, they can go to [insert PG location] and get one.
let me restate my problem in easier words, the tech tree, i kno it good enuff to comm but i forget stuff, like "ok guys lets phase here, oh god i forgot hpase tech" then i get the eject , other stuff like "comm drop hmgs we gotta take out hte onos" , my reply "another 2 minutes for armory to finish, jus twait" , then its like EJECT <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->, i just have problem remembering what and when to upgrade
oh and thanks for the other tips , they still helpd <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are only going to get that sort of understanding through time. In general, though, have an idea of what sort of tech you're going to focus on and get that quickly. You should always have a reason to spend res, even when you have the entire map capped and you're getting 8/tick. If you don't, you're wasting time.
I'll give you an example by way of explanation: I'm trying to perfect my totally-awesome-HA-rush that involves no damage upgrades and catalysts. So I first play a craptastic game to get an idea about timing, wherein I am mostly relying on standard ideas like phase tech and the like. I fail miserably and only win because my team manages to ninja 3 hives with lmgs. Anyway, three things that game makes clear are that
1) to get them out at around 6:30 - 7 min I need a LOT of res
2) what follows from that is that this strat is dependant on medpacks because I can't afford phase gates to hold position (I got phase gates that game, but the heavies didn't come out until after 12 minutes because of that).
3) Upgrading the armory right off the bat actually seems to slow things down (since I can't cap as fast).
So my second game I refine it a little. No obs until I have a really good res flow. Wait on upgrading the armory. I can get armor 1 out early but I should cap a lot. This game was stacked so we won pretty easily but I didn't succeed at the rush this time either. My problem was most likely not upgrading the armory fast enough. Probably the most difficult thing will be balancing getting the armory upgraded quick enough (advanced armory and heavy armor are the two longest research times, ugh) and having enough res to drop suits and weapons when they're needed. Meds are also factoring in as a significant cost since I have to counter no damage upgrades. I make a plan to upgrade the armory after I've dropped 3 rts.
Third game I pull it off, heavy armor running as fast as skulks is so amusing/probably the scariest thing in NS. It still could have gone smoother. I want to make sure it's not map dependant or at least have plans for maps where heavy armor might suck. I really need to rush my team to the second hive for pseudo-pressure while I cap the map. Rambos that are pressuring the first hive are a drain and actually slow things down, even if they're doing well, since I have less people to cap with. The longer I can keep people alive in the field the better the strat works, although that's pretty much a duh. Also it seems like finishing the armory and armor 3 at the same time really works out well for the timing.
<b>This</b> is not true. If that were so, you would see dramatically different marine strats in competitive play. Marines can (and should) cap all over the place where as aliens have a much tougher time with spamming down random RTs. The only thing you need to realize is that if you're losing your towers and they're not, they're going to win. But if both of you are down to 1 tower, the marines will have 2/3rds the map capped before the aliens can get two more up, unless you're playing with the wrong people.
Remember, an electrified tower costs the same as three normal ones, so the only time it will pay off is if you think you will have to recap three times. In a 10 minute game, how often is that going to happen? I use electric towers for position only. It's easy to defend even against fades since they're afraid of hanging around for long.
(although I thought the rest of the post had some rather good points)
The server I play on, games tend to run 15+ min, give or take depending on the map and the makeup of the teams.
Here are the two scenarios, ideal in both good/bad respects in what I've seen.
This is just IMO.
Bad:
-Loosing the RT, a 15 res investment shouldn't be handed to the alien team
-Loosing the marine, a body capable of mobilizing ammo that could be used to blow stuff up that isn't Scottish.
-Loosing the marine's gun, particularly if it happens to be something of value.
-Giving the alien 1-3 res for their effort.
Better:
-Having wayward marines 'check and go' nodes, costing you nothing
-Marine moving from point to point, rather than sitting and spamming the Comm for an RT
-Marine hopefully gunning down alien Res sacs and chambers, costing the Alien team 10-15 res, 10 more if you get the Gorge.
-Having the Res, now, to invest in more critical and persistant upgrades for the team that will help them kill stuff with less loss of life. MT alone is worth it's cost in Kill Res. RT's don't kill hives, marines do (even LA/LMG marines).
The principle is the same, mine is just a little more restrained simply because I have a lot of 'unreliable' marines that are more prone to dying while building the tower, and what I know to be a very random patrol of Skulks and Gorges all throughout the map that put exposed RT's in a very precarious position. I've come to Comm conservatively with res (less RT spam), but aggressively on the field (I use that extra res to get a jump on Armor/Weapon/Phase/MT). I'll cap nodes 'en route' to a new siege location, but rarely anywhere else if I can avoid it.
Of course, the trick is trying to convince the team to trust me and actually 'hit and run' the nodes instead of sitting there like ducks waiting for that very same skulk to grab a fork and bite their ****. Still working on getting around marine ego.
At the same time assign one guy RT capping duty, he basically runs around the map in the background capping and saving RTs whilst the rest of your team pushes the aliens back. It doesn't take more than 2 guys to build an RT againist skulks so i'd not recommend more than 2 people on this duty.
Also, i feel the same way as saltz and adj do about meds. It's like a mini game i play and every time i lose i feel silly :\
thx again
o and btw adj has the worst ideas for comming ever
hes horrible and i always play with him
although he does a nice job with the med packs.....
<3
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as a comm myself I'd like to tell new commanders that this piece of advice is worth gold.
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as a comm myself I'd like to tell new commanders that this piece of advice is worth gold. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best way to get an offense rolling is by keeping the meds flowing, hands down. I should know. I comm pubs once or twice a day and do all sorts of stupid stuff, or I just screw up, but I still win the vast majority of my games because I keep my players medded. Keeping them medded keeps them out in the field. Keeping them out in the field means they can do more damage. Keep two fingers on e and s <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
it also engenders trust from your rines, they are more likely to follow orders, and go into harms way if they are confident they won't die in vain.
check my post on Links to Guides and Faqs <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70126' target='_blank'>here</a>
there should be a post I made a while back about medpack delivery, some little tips. but a big one is, if you are going to give a rines meds, get to them to 100. it's a waste of rez to just med a marine to under 75 health, as that marine is still a one-bite-to-death rines :/.
Locking down hives isn't very effective against competent fades. I don't recommend it because if you lockdown one hive, and the aliens take another. All they need is 2 hives and a few fades.
Also when lockingdown a hive, it forces defense. Defense is neccesary, but when forced into a defensive mode, especially with static defenses (i.e. turrets), they are designed to be broken. If you are on the defensive, you won't recap nodes or worry about that other hive. Take that res you use for the lockdown and invest it in tech and guns. All you have to do is deny access to the hives, not totally lock them down. It is more effective to deny both hives, that to completely secure one and leave the other one open.
All of this information comes from my pub commanding experiences, as well as competitive.
Firewater, great post btw.
I feel one of nadagast's mouth-breathing rants coming on, but that's why I use turrets.